As for training the military, here you go: See that border? Don't let anyone cross it. Training done!
without going on and on, i think there are some border patrol people who might take exception to this.
i don't think there is anything close to a will to do anything resembling a reasonable deportation plan. knowing certain aspects of the immigration system like i do, the cost would be astronomical and it would require a wholesale increase in the size of governmental infrastructure that would be massive. and that doesn't even get to the fence issue.
but the bottom line is no one in washington is interested. because it's impossible, because it's unbelievably expensive, because it's not politically smart, because companies like cheap labor and because they are too ingrained in our society (this isn't a recent problem, this is a problem decades in the making).
but maybe i'm wrong, maybe some politicians will do something about it*.
* trust me, i'm not wrong. no one is doing garbage for mass deportations. if i am wrong, you guys come back and tell me.
I agree with a lot of this. My comment on the training was half serious. Our border agents now are not allowed to engage with fire unless fired upon and even then they are given rubber bullets. Would Brian Terry be alive today if he had real ammo? Our military wouldn't (shouldn't) have to put up with the same non-engagement rules. I have a friend that is a border agent in AZ, so I wasn't belittling their training and service.They do they best they can with their hands tied thanks to the asswipes in DC.
Nobody in Washington DC wants to really takle the problem. The republicans want to do "reform" in an attempt to gain Hispanic votes (not going to happen). Big business wants the cheap labor and unions want more members to help keep them rolling in cash and power.
We will never have mass deportations as it is political suicide. Neither side would even bring it to a vote. But turning a blind eye to the problem by DC is even worse. For the Federal govt to sue AZ for doing something to protect their state and people because the Feds refuse to do their job is the height of hypocrisy.
Stay disciplined and manage your bankroll
0
Quote Originally Posted by ClubDirt:
As for training the military, here you go: See that border? Don't let anyone cross it. Training done!
without going on and on, i think there are some border patrol people who might take exception to this.
i don't think there is anything close to a will to do anything resembling a reasonable deportation plan. knowing certain aspects of the immigration system like i do, the cost would be astronomical and it would require a wholesale increase in the size of governmental infrastructure that would be massive. and that doesn't even get to the fence issue.
but the bottom line is no one in washington is interested. because it's impossible, because it's unbelievably expensive, because it's not politically smart, because companies like cheap labor and because they are too ingrained in our society (this isn't a recent problem, this is a problem decades in the making).
but maybe i'm wrong, maybe some politicians will do something about it*.
* trust me, i'm not wrong. no one is doing garbage for mass deportations. if i am wrong, you guys come back and tell me.
I agree with a lot of this. My comment on the training was half serious. Our border agents now are not allowed to engage with fire unless fired upon and even then they are given rubber bullets. Would Brian Terry be alive today if he had real ammo? Our military wouldn't (shouldn't) have to put up with the same non-engagement rules. I have a friend that is a border agent in AZ, so I wasn't belittling their training and service.They do they best they can with their hands tied thanks to the asswipes in DC.
Nobody in Washington DC wants to really takle the problem. The republicans want to do "reform" in an attempt to gain Hispanic votes (not going to happen). Big business wants the cheap labor and unions want more members to help keep them rolling in cash and power.
We will never have mass deportations as it is political suicide. Neither side would even bring it to a vote. But turning a blind eye to the problem by DC is even worse. For the Federal govt to sue AZ for doing something to protect their state and people because the Feds refuse to do their job is the height of hypocrisy.
we're not changing our immigration laws to make them anything like mexico. see post 23.
making more laws or making laws tougher means more ICE, more police, more courts, more personnel, more prisons. i.e. more government. once we make those things, they stay around forever. they need to get funded. and we spend more and more on government and then complain about why government is so big and our taxes are so high and it's all wasted. on government.
i don't know what the sheriff in arizona is doing but i do know there is an infrastructure already in place to deal with criminals in az, there is nothing close to that in the US for all of the illegals. and while they are dealing with a variance of a few thousands in that county, i would guess, we're talking about more than ten million with no infrastructure to speak of to deal with them. we'd basically need to start from square one. and again, it's all useless without the 2,000 mile fence, which is partially useless without something on the canadian border.
of course we won't change our federal laws to make them tougher, but we should. The power brokers in DC won't allow it. I'm not talking about jailing 10 million people, that's impossible, but we do have the resources to house those that ICE decides to release without warning. I think we can effectively deal with those in the system now if (only if) we can make laws tough enough to force people back to their own country or somehow go through the proper channels for a work visa (also making it easier for them to do so). Give those in the country a 6-12 month time frame to get their things in order, go back to their own country (a true back of the line) or face severe jail time.
It can't be piecemeal, we need tougher laws on illegals and the businesses that hire them, a secure border (might not need a fence with the military) and a workable legal immigration system to include more work visa for skilled and unskilled labor. Those visa don't have to be tied to a path to citizenship but the option could be there.
Stay disciplined and manage your bankroll
0
Quote Originally Posted by ClubDirt:
we're not changing our immigration laws to make them anything like mexico. see post 23.
making more laws or making laws tougher means more ICE, more police, more courts, more personnel, more prisons. i.e. more government. once we make those things, they stay around forever. they need to get funded. and we spend more and more on government and then complain about why government is so big and our taxes are so high and it's all wasted. on government.
i don't know what the sheriff in arizona is doing but i do know there is an infrastructure already in place to deal with criminals in az, there is nothing close to that in the US for all of the illegals. and while they are dealing with a variance of a few thousands in that county, i would guess, we're talking about more than ten million with no infrastructure to speak of to deal with them. we'd basically need to start from square one. and again, it's all useless without the 2,000 mile fence, which is partially useless without something on the canadian border.
of course we won't change our federal laws to make them tougher, but we should. The power brokers in DC won't allow it. I'm not talking about jailing 10 million people, that's impossible, but we do have the resources to house those that ICE decides to release without warning. I think we can effectively deal with those in the system now if (only if) we can make laws tough enough to force people back to their own country or somehow go through the proper channels for a work visa (also making it easier for them to do so). Give those in the country a 6-12 month time frame to get their things in order, go back to their own country (a true back of the line) or face severe jail time.
It can't be piecemeal, we need tougher laws on illegals and the businesses that hire them, a secure border (might not need a fence with the military) and a workable legal immigration system to include more work visa for skilled and unskilled labor. Those visa don't have to be tied to a path to citizenship but the option could be there.
Charles Krauthammer brought this up years ago and I subscribe to his philosophy.
It's impossible to deport millions of people who are here illegally. Give them a path to citizenship. I know it's amnesty but there is no other way.
But, before doing that lock down the border. Fence, Border Patrol, Alligator Moat, whatever.
Not sure that is correct. It is the easiest solution, but a slap in the face to every person that did it the right way or is in the long process of doing so. It's rewarding a criminal act! Amnesty didn't work before what makes anytone think it will now?
Stay disciplined and manage your bankroll
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Quote Originally Posted by canovsp:
Charles Krauthammer brought this up years ago and I subscribe to his philosophy.
It's impossible to deport millions of people who are here illegally. Give them a path to citizenship. I know it's amnesty but there is no other way.
But, before doing that lock down the border. Fence, Border Patrol, Alligator Moat, whatever.
Not sure that is correct. It is the easiest solution, but a slap in the face to every person that did it the right way or is in the long process of doing so. It's rewarding a criminal act! Amnesty didn't work before what makes anytone think it will now?
Not sure that is correct. It is the easiest solution, but a slap in the face to every person that did it the right way or is in the long process of doing so. It's rewarding a criminal act! Amnesty didn't work before what makes anyone think it will now?
I'm not saying they go to the front of the line. They are still getting behind the people that did it the right way. But loading up twenty million people on Greyhounds and taking them to TJ would be financially and logistically impossible.
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Quote Originally Posted by Danrules24:
Not sure that is correct. It is the easiest solution, but a slap in the face to every person that did it the right way or is in the long process of doing so. It's rewarding a criminal act! Amnesty didn't work before what makes anyone think it will now?
I'm not saying they go to the front of the line. They are still getting behind the people that did it the right way. But loading up twenty million people on Greyhounds and taking them to TJ would be financially and logistically impossible.
I'm not saying they go to the front of the line. They are still getting behind the people that did it the right way. But loading up twenty million people on Greyhounds and taking them to TJ would be financially and logistically impossible.
On alternative would be to only allow a legal path if they return to their country of origin. They can come forward now and declare their intention to do so without fear of arrest and start their paperwork, then return home and wait like everyone else. Either way is screwed up.
Stay disciplined and manage your bankroll
0
Quote Originally Posted by canovsp:
I'm not saying they go to the front of the line. They are still getting behind the people that did it the right way. But loading up twenty million people on Greyhounds and taking them to TJ would be financially and logistically impossible.
On alternative would be to only allow a legal path if they return to their country of origin. They can come forward now and declare their intention to do so without fear of arrest and start their paperwork, then return home and wait like everyone else. Either way is screwed up.
In some ways our almost tactical avoidance of the issues of immigration could be the best policy. Any real answer will not be cheap or popular.
-Score points on both sides by feigning a push to secure the border,
-offer marginal concessions to native born children of illegal aliens, especially those who have been in our school system that we have paid to educate.
-always talk about providing a pathway to citizenship, and feign interest in some sort of amnesty while acknowledging that we are a country of laws, and it is not easy to just de-criminalize millions of criminals as much as we would like to.
That to me seems like a winning strategy.
There is no good way to tell people that they have broken our laws, therefore their children must suffer. Conversely there is no good way to remain a nation of laws while bending over to law breakers.
I don't know if this will come off racist, and I am not sure I really care, I will be accused of such anyway.
Mexicans have ruined their country. they have created a cesspool of unimaginable misery that makes Iraq, and Afghanistan look like a tourist destination. Mexico is a failed state, and at the heart of that failed state is the Mexican citizen. Whether through complicity, corruption, or learned helplessness, many have watched their country devolve into the worst case scenario.
If we are going to accept refugees from the War-zone that is Mexico we should treat them as such.
There are actually guidelines and quotas in existence.
Currently we accept 80,000 a year from war torn countries via the UN. We should say that we are willing to triple that number if other UN countries would follow suit. IF the UN has to exist, then they can do something worth-wile for a change.
It actually isn't a bad deal for the refugee, they receive assistance for resettlement etc.
They get assistance ($) and a definite path to citizenship. They can, however, not vote until they become citizens.
And I would seriously suggest a 5 year minimum wait period before they can vote from their entrance date, so that they can witness an election cycle from the sidelines.
I would also elect to take women and children first.
I also do not understand why we would aid Libyan, and Syrian Al Qaeda and not anti cartel rebels.
Blows my mind.
I guess we are too busy arming the cartels to help LoL.
0
In some ways our almost tactical avoidance of the issues of immigration could be the best policy. Any real answer will not be cheap or popular.
-Score points on both sides by feigning a push to secure the border,
-offer marginal concessions to native born children of illegal aliens, especially those who have been in our school system that we have paid to educate.
-always talk about providing a pathway to citizenship, and feign interest in some sort of amnesty while acknowledging that we are a country of laws, and it is not easy to just de-criminalize millions of criminals as much as we would like to.
That to me seems like a winning strategy.
There is no good way to tell people that they have broken our laws, therefore their children must suffer. Conversely there is no good way to remain a nation of laws while bending over to law breakers.
I don't know if this will come off racist, and I am not sure I really care, I will be accused of such anyway.
Mexicans have ruined their country. they have created a cesspool of unimaginable misery that makes Iraq, and Afghanistan look like a tourist destination. Mexico is a failed state, and at the heart of that failed state is the Mexican citizen. Whether through complicity, corruption, or learned helplessness, many have watched their country devolve into the worst case scenario.
If we are going to accept refugees from the War-zone that is Mexico we should treat them as such.
There are actually guidelines and quotas in existence.
Currently we accept 80,000 a year from war torn countries via the UN. We should say that we are willing to triple that number if other UN countries would follow suit. IF the UN has to exist, then they can do something worth-wile for a change.
It actually isn't a bad deal for the refugee, they receive assistance for resettlement etc.
They get assistance ($) and a definite path to citizenship. They can, however, not vote until they become citizens.
And I would seriously suggest a 5 year minimum wait period before they can vote from their entrance date, so that they can witness an election cycle from the sidelines.
I would also elect to take women and children first.
I also do not understand why we would aid Libyan, and Syrian Al Qaeda and not anti cartel rebels.
Blows my mind.
I guess we are too busy arming the cartels to help LoL.
For once in your life, try looking at the real world as opposed to your Fox News fairy tale.
I think this is a just blatant cheap shot... true this poster has some history of this... but he seems to be asking questions and encouraging discussion without the Classic Cut/Paste BS combined with the childish games that these guys are known for...
Just because they are "The Same"...
doesnt mean they are the same...
Its simply a matter of "Willing" and "Able"
canos is "Able" to transcend the fox news propaganda/partisan lemming rhetoric... and his being "willing" varies... he seems "willing" now...
14 is probably smart enough to be "Able" to transcend the fox news propaganda/partisan lemming rhetoric... but is never "Willing" and will insist on fantasy land rhetoric even in the face of reality...
frontrowcenter is not "able" to do anything but cut/paste and agree like a partisan lemming... so even if he was "willing" it makes no difference...
Bowlist... bless his heart... appears "Willing" and tries so hard to pretend like he can join us in the real world and leave his fox "news"/talking heads fantasyland... but he Fails over and over and over again because he is not "Able"...and ends up meltdown to lies and insults...
So although they are "The Same"... doesnt mean they are the same...
They might all get caught up in spreading lies... but their not all Bowlshit
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Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:
For once in your life, try looking at the real world as opposed to your Fox News fairy tale.
I think this is a just blatant cheap shot... true this poster has some history of this... but he seems to be asking questions and encouraging discussion without the Classic Cut/Paste BS combined with the childish games that these guys are known for...
Just because they are "The Same"...
doesnt mean they are the same...
Its simply a matter of "Willing" and "Able"
canos is "Able" to transcend the fox news propaganda/partisan lemming rhetoric... and his being "willing" varies... he seems "willing" now...
14 is probably smart enough to be "Able" to transcend the fox news propaganda/partisan lemming rhetoric... but is never "Willing" and will insist on fantasy land rhetoric even in the face of reality...
frontrowcenter is not "able" to do anything but cut/paste and agree like a partisan lemming... so even if he was "willing" it makes no difference...
Bowlist... bless his heart... appears "Willing" and tries so hard to pretend like he can join us in the real world and leave his fox "news"/talking heads fantasyland... but he Fails over and over and over again because he is not "Able"...and ends up meltdown to lies and insults...
So although they are "The Same"... doesnt mean they are the same...
They might all get caught up in spreading lies... but their not all Bowlshit
Wow... such a tough and complex topic... no easy answers here... I really question
1. What line? I also think that lumping all people that are here with out proper citizenship as one group does not make sense... I think that even the term "illegal" as a noun starts off with bias...
2. How do we intentionally punish anyone for following rules? You mean like... identify people that follow rules and then fine them or punish them? Yeah I dont agree with that... but I dont think anyone is doing that...
3. I think that it would be to their advantage to learn english... but I think it is a free country that people should have the right to make choices and face the consequences of their choices socially, financially, occupationally etc... Its weird how Big Government Language NAZIs can really get up in arms over stuff like this...
4. Im not sure... but I would take immigrants that are looking to work and make it in the america with the american dream over the "trailor trash burden-majority" with a family tradition of multi-generational welfare recipients... forget term limits for politicians... I think there should be generational limits for welfare... once you've hit 6 you get cut off... either get a job or live in another country that will foot the bill for your mobile home...
5. I think that is would end up costing alot of money and I would think that fiscal conservatives would be against the spending here... I sure if they can push it through tho if they pair it with a war on drugs or like how during the GW bush years they paired internet gambling with funding terrorism...
6. Depends on the crime... to think in such generalizations is just not realistic...
technically they are breaking the law being here... but this is a the complicated... my personal bias is that alot of criminals in other countries and I mean real fugitives come to the USA because they are on the run or exiled from their own country... so I think to wait for them to do something there to try to send them back to their country makes no sense...
I would like a more proactive approach where countries identify fugitives that might be living in the USA and we should put effort finding these criminals... not spend alot of money going after people with no history of crime in their own country or building a fence to keep them out...
6. Report for what? more/bigger government is not my style...
7. I dont feel like you are... I said so and called out a linesmen on the issue... but I dont know why you would need to even ask that question if you are not...
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Wow... such a tough and complex topic... no easy answers here... I really question
1. What line? I also think that lumping all people that are here with out proper citizenship as one group does not make sense... I think that even the term "illegal" as a noun starts off with bias...
2. How do we intentionally punish anyone for following rules? You mean like... identify people that follow rules and then fine them or punish them? Yeah I dont agree with that... but I dont think anyone is doing that...
3. I think that it would be to their advantage to learn english... but I think it is a free country that people should have the right to make choices and face the consequences of their choices socially, financially, occupationally etc... Its weird how Big Government Language NAZIs can really get up in arms over stuff like this...
4. Im not sure... but I would take immigrants that are looking to work and make it in the america with the american dream over the "trailor trash burden-majority" with a family tradition of multi-generational welfare recipients... forget term limits for politicians... I think there should be generational limits for welfare... once you've hit 6 you get cut off... either get a job or live in another country that will foot the bill for your mobile home...
5. I think that is would end up costing alot of money and I would think that fiscal conservatives would be against the spending here... I sure if they can push it through tho if they pair it with a war on drugs or like how during the GW bush years they paired internet gambling with funding terrorism...
6. Depends on the crime... to think in such generalizations is just not realistic...
technically they are breaking the law being here... but this is a the complicated... my personal bias is that alot of criminals in other countries and I mean real fugitives come to the USA because they are on the run or exiled from their own country... so I think to wait for them to do something there to try to send them back to their country makes no sense...
I would like a more proactive approach where countries identify fugitives that might be living in the USA and we should put effort finding these criminals... not spend alot of money going after people with no history of crime in their own country or building a fence to keep them out...
6. Report for what? more/bigger government is not my style...
7. I dont feel like you are... I said so and called out a linesmen on the issue... but I dont know why you would need to even ask that question if you are not...
canos... this is a good thread... do you think at some point you could give us your opinion on the questions?
Everything has been addressed by different posters but I'll give a breakdown of my personal opinions on each issue.
The first and second question go together. The foreigners that came here and reported to the govt and applied for citizenship are the ones that get citizenship first. The people that came illegally do not become citizens until the people mentioned above get their citizenship first.
I asked if there is an influx of illegals would there be a strain on govt services. That is a rhetorical question. Of course it will. Once made legals they will now go to hospitals & clinics for preventive healthcare. Right now an illegal would only go to a hospital in an emergency situation. After given legal status, unless those people find good jobs with medical benefits, they will be sucking from the government teet (Medicare, Medicaid, SSI)
Same situation with jobs. If they don't get a job, or at least a good paying job, they will start getting food stamps/welfare and/or unemployment.
Liberals always talk about raising the taxes on the rich to pay for the services we currently provide in this country. After all of the above is added we'll have to raise their taxes again. and again. and again.
If we agree to grant a "pathway to citizenship" we have to beef up security (or build a fence) at the border. If we don't illegals will keep coming. Over a year ago I recommended bringing the troops home that are overseas and train them as border agents. There are also numerous jobs in the military today that may be outdated. Train those servicemen and women for the border.
Illegals should be deported if they commit a crime. When an American commits a crime we have to show our ID and if it was serious we get arrested, get a mug shot taken, and get fingerprinted. I've heard stories where illegals get arrested and nothing happens. A year later they commit a more serious crime and someone dies (DUI, Murder). If that individual was deported the victim would still be alive.
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Quote Originally Posted by dl36:
canos... this is a good thread... do you think at some point you could give us your opinion on the questions?
Everything has been addressed by different posters but I'll give a breakdown of my personal opinions on each issue.
The first and second question go together. The foreigners that came here and reported to the govt and applied for citizenship are the ones that get citizenship first. The people that came illegally do not become citizens until the people mentioned above get their citizenship first.
I asked if there is an influx of illegals would there be a strain on govt services. That is a rhetorical question. Of course it will. Once made legals they will now go to hospitals & clinics for preventive healthcare. Right now an illegal would only go to a hospital in an emergency situation. After given legal status, unless those people find good jobs with medical benefits, they will be sucking from the government teet (Medicare, Medicaid, SSI)
Same situation with jobs. If they don't get a job, or at least a good paying job, they will start getting food stamps/welfare and/or unemployment.
Liberals always talk about raising the taxes on the rich to pay for the services we currently provide in this country. After all of the above is added we'll have to raise their taxes again. and again. and again.
If we agree to grant a "pathway to citizenship" we have to beef up security (or build a fence) at the border. If we don't illegals will keep coming. Over a year ago I recommended bringing the troops home that are overseas and train them as border agents. There are also numerous jobs in the military today that may be outdated. Train those servicemen and women for the border.
Illegals should be deported if they commit a crime. When an American commits a crime we have to show our ID and if it was serious we get arrested, get a mug shot taken, and get fingerprinted. I've heard stories where illegals get arrested and nothing happens. A year later they commit a more serious crime and someone dies (DUI, Murder). If that individual was deported the victim would still be alive.
I've heard stories where illegals get arrested and nothing happens. A
year later they commit a more serious crime and someone dies (DUI,
Murder).
i've told some of those stories on here. i've told stories where i've had an illegal in jail on some real serious garbage (armed robbery, shootings, etc) and i went out of my way (it's not my job to do so) and contact ICE (INS at the time) and told them i have a really bad guy who is illegal in the jail. go get the guy and take him back to where he came from. this removed one of the most difficult parts of the process of deportation- finding them. so what happened the 3-4 times i did this? see if you can guess. do you want to know why? i've already answered it in this thread.
what is the result? what dan and i agreed on. nothing is getting done on this. ever. we'll colonize the sun before any meaningful immigration reform with proper deportation gets accomplished. if you started a thread, how do we colonize the sun, it would make more sense than the threads talking about how we deport illegals and accomplish proper immigration reform.
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I've heard stories where illegals get arrested and nothing happens. A
year later they commit a more serious crime and someone dies (DUI,
Murder).
i've told some of those stories on here. i've told stories where i've had an illegal in jail on some real serious garbage (armed robbery, shootings, etc) and i went out of my way (it's not my job to do so) and contact ICE (INS at the time) and told them i have a really bad guy who is illegal in the jail. go get the guy and take him back to where he came from. this removed one of the most difficult parts of the process of deportation- finding them. so what happened the 3-4 times i did this? see if you can guess. do you want to know why? i've already answered it in this thread.
what is the result? what dan and i agreed on. nothing is getting done on this. ever. we'll colonize the sun before any meaningful immigration reform with proper deportation gets accomplished. if you started a thread, how do we colonize the sun, it would make more sense than the threads talking about how we deport illegals and accomplish proper immigration reform.
hell if i know, but i bet those countries don't have an unknown number estimated at 10 to 20 million illegals mixed into their communities many of whom are difficult to distinguish from people born here or here legally.
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hell if i know, but i bet those countries don't have an unknown number estimated at 10 to 20 million illegals mixed into their communities many of whom are difficult to distinguish from people born here or here legally.
If there were any real teeth behind prosecuting or stopping illegals, there would have to be INS raids on Construction sites, Farms, Kitchens etc. There would have to be draconian medieval prosecution.
People losing their business, land, property and freedom for crimes up to and including such trumped up charges as slave trafficking.
Kind of a scary thought, but it is the natural progression if we are serious about stopping illegal immigrants. By prosecuting violating businesses to the full extent of the law, and severely depressing the market for illegal labor you have now done more than any wall could ever do.
Why should we pay to deport anyone. No prosecution or detainment of illegals is necessary. Create an atmosphere that is worse than Mexico for them and they will deport themselves. Make the thought of hiring an undocumented worker so scary, and so repugnant, that it is akin to trafficking meth.
I am not saying that I am promoting this idea, I think it would grow sections of our government exponentially and infringe on the liberties of Americans, but if anyone was serious about solutions this would have already been suggested. Democrats and Republicans have their paychecks signed by people that profit from the undocumented slave labor. This problem never gets solved. I would quit beating my head against the wall if I were you guys.
0
Just building a fence does nothing.
If there were any real teeth behind prosecuting or stopping illegals, there would have to be INS raids on Construction sites, Farms, Kitchens etc. There would have to be draconian medieval prosecution.
People losing their business, land, property and freedom for crimes up to and including such trumped up charges as slave trafficking.
Kind of a scary thought, but it is the natural progression if we are serious about stopping illegal immigrants. By prosecuting violating businesses to the full extent of the law, and severely depressing the market for illegal labor you have now done more than any wall could ever do.
Why should we pay to deport anyone. No prosecution or detainment of illegals is necessary. Create an atmosphere that is worse than Mexico for them and they will deport themselves. Make the thought of hiring an undocumented worker so scary, and so repugnant, that it is akin to trafficking meth.
I am not saying that I am promoting this idea, I think it would grow sections of our government exponentially and infringe on the liberties of Americans, but if anyone was serious about solutions this would have already been suggested. Democrats and Republicans have their paychecks signed by people that profit from the undocumented slave labor. This problem never gets solved. I would quit beating my head against the wall if I were you guys.
If there were any real teeth behind prosecuting or stopping illegals, there would have to be INS raids on Construction sites, Farms, Kitchens etc. There would have to be draconian medieval prosecution.
People losing their business, land, property and freedom for crimes up to and including such trumped up charges as slave trafficking.
Kind of a scary thought, but it is the natural progression if we are serious about stopping illegal immigrants. By prosecuting violating businesses to the full extent of the law, and severely depressing the market for illegal labor you have now done more than any wall could ever do.
Why should we pay to deport anyone. No prosecution or detainment of illegals is necessary. Create an atmosphere that is worse than Mexico for them and they will deport themselves. Make the thought of hiring an undocumented worker so scary, and so repugnant, that it is akin to trafficking meth.
I am not saying that I am promoting this idea, I think it would grow sections of our government exponentially and infringe on the liberties of Americans, but if anyone was serious about solutions this would have already been suggested. Democrats and Republicans have their paychecks signed by people that profit from the undocumented slave labor. This problem never gets solved. I would quit beating my head against the wall if I were you guys.
something like that would be good. then we could get back to hiring american citizens and people here legally. of course the only problem with that is businesses would have to pay more in salary, training, equipment, workers comp insurance, etc. and who wants to do that. better to hire illegals you can throw away when they get hurt (so the rest of us pay) and just replace them with another.
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Quote Originally Posted by rick3117:
Just building a fence does nothing.
If there were any real teeth behind prosecuting or stopping illegals, there would have to be INS raids on Construction sites, Farms, Kitchens etc. There would have to be draconian medieval prosecution.
People losing their business, land, property and freedom for crimes up to and including such trumped up charges as slave trafficking.
Kind of a scary thought, but it is the natural progression if we are serious about stopping illegal immigrants. By prosecuting violating businesses to the full extent of the law, and severely depressing the market for illegal labor you have now done more than any wall could ever do.
Why should we pay to deport anyone. No prosecution or detainment of illegals is necessary. Create an atmosphere that is worse than Mexico for them and they will deport themselves. Make the thought of hiring an undocumented worker so scary, and so repugnant, that it is akin to trafficking meth.
I am not saying that I am promoting this idea, I think it would grow sections of our government exponentially and infringe on the liberties of Americans, but if anyone was serious about solutions this would have already been suggested. Democrats and Republicans have their paychecks signed by people that profit from the undocumented slave labor. This problem never gets solved. I would quit beating my head against the wall if I were you guys.
something like that would be good. then we could get back to hiring american citizens and people here legally. of course the only problem with that is businesses would have to pay more in salary, training, equipment, workers comp insurance, etc. and who wants to do that. better to hire illegals you can throw away when they get hurt (so the rest of us pay) and just replace them with another.
Everything has been addressed by different posters but I'll give a breakdown of my personal opinions on each issue.
The first and second question go together. The foreigners that came here and reported to the govt and applied for citizenship are the ones that get citizenship first. The people that came illegally do not become citizens until the people mentioned above get their citizenship first.
I asked if there is an influx of illegals would there be a strain on govt services. That is a rhetorical question. Of course it will. Once made legals they will now go to hospitals & clinics for preventive healthcare. Right now an illegal would only go to a hospital in an emergency situation. After given legal status, unless those people find good jobs with medical benefits, they will be sucking from the government teet (Medicare, Medicaid, SSI)
Same situation with jobs. If they don't get a job, or at least a good paying job, they will start getting food stamps/welfare and/or unemployment.
Liberals always talk about raising the taxes on the rich to pay for the services we currently provide in this country. After all of the above is added we'll have to raise their taxes again. and again. and again.
If we agree to grant a "pathway to citizenship" we have to beef up security (or build a fence) at the border. If we don't illegals will keep coming. Over a year ago I recommended bringing the troops home that are overseas and train them as border agents. There are also numerous jobs in the military today that may be outdated. Train those servicemen and women for the border.
Illegals should be deported if they commit a crime. When an American commits a crime we have to show our ID and if it was serious we get arrested, get a mug shot taken, and get fingerprinted. I've heard stories where illegals get arrested and nothing happens. A year later they commit a more serious crime and someone dies (DUI, Murder). If that individual was deported the victim would still be alive.
I gotta get back to work, I will comment on your thoughts later tonight if I get a chance...
but I really appreciate you taking the time to post your personal perspective...
I thought it was poor taste for you to be attacked as a partisan lemming when on this specific thread you are not following 14, bowslit, FRC and the rest of the crew...
and this thread shows where you are different...
Both "Willing" and "Able"
Perhaps bowslit could follow your lead having an intelligent discussion with out the lies, name calling, childish games and meltdowns... but then there is that problem with not "Able" that he runs into...
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Quote Originally Posted by canovsp:
Everything has been addressed by different posters but I'll give a breakdown of my personal opinions on each issue.
The first and second question go together. The foreigners that came here and reported to the govt and applied for citizenship are the ones that get citizenship first. The people that came illegally do not become citizens until the people mentioned above get their citizenship first.
I asked if there is an influx of illegals would there be a strain on govt services. That is a rhetorical question. Of course it will. Once made legals they will now go to hospitals & clinics for preventive healthcare. Right now an illegal would only go to a hospital in an emergency situation. After given legal status, unless those people find good jobs with medical benefits, they will be sucking from the government teet (Medicare, Medicaid, SSI)
Same situation with jobs. If they don't get a job, or at least a good paying job, they will start getting food stamps/welfare and/or unemployment.
Liberals always talk about raising the taxes on the rich to pay for the services we currently provide in this country. After all of the above is added we'll have to raise their taxes again. and again. and again.
If we agree to grant a "pathway to citizenship" we have to beef up security (or build a fence) at the border. If we don't illegals will keep coming. Over a year ago I recommended bringing the troops home that are overseas and train them as border agents. There are also numerous jobs in the military today that may be outdated. Train those servicemen and women for the border.
Illegals should be deported if they commit a crime. When an American commits a crime we have to show our ID and if it was serious we get arrested, get a mug shot taken, and get fingerprinted. I've heard stories where illegals get arrested and nothing happens. A year later they commit a more serious crime and someone dies (DUI, Murder). If that individual was deported the victim would still be alive.
I gotta get back to work, I will comment on your thoughts later tonight if I get a chance...
but I really appreciate you taking the time to post your personal perspective...
I thought it was poor taste for you to be attacked as a partisan lemming when on this specific thread you are not following 14, bowslit, FRC and the rest of the crew...
and this thread shows where you are different...
Both "Willing" and "Able"
Perhaps bowslit could follow your lead having an intelligent discussion with out the lies, name calling, childish games and meltdowns... but then there is that problem with not "Able" that he runs into...
I agree with you on you're basic premise for #1 and #2... but I guess I see them as irrelevant issues... just stirring up unfairness, injustice talk... kinda like what you hear from liberals...
i get where you are coming from with the healthcare thing... my understanding with medicaid is that they will not get medicaid because they have not bought into it... I believe it is 5 years total of work and paying into it... soldiers in the mexican army are not going to get the GI bill... I am not sure if SSI works on a similar premise as SSD...
But you bring up a good point that people without legal status only use the hospitals for emergency and also do not utilize government assistance and somehow are able to live in america...
It supports my term limit idea for the "trailor trash burden-majority" with a family tradition of multi-generational welfare recipients.... people without legal status are able to make it some how... logically so should the multi-generational welfare recipients if they got their welfare cut off...
and I guess as a gambler I would rather gamble on people with legal without legal status that work under the table and do what it takes to survive without government assistance over multi-generational welfare recipients...
I think you missed answering this question...
Should all people coming in to the country learn English as a second language and American history?
0
I agree with you on you're basic premise for #1 and #2... but I guess I see them as irrelevant issues... just stirring up unfairness, injustice talk... kinda like what you hear from liberals...
i get where you are coming from with the healthcare thing... my understanding with medicaid is that they will not get medicaid because they have not bought into it... I believe it is 5 years total of work and paying into it... soldiers in the mexican army are not going to get the GI bill... I am not sure if SSI works on a similar premise as SSD...
But you bring up a good point that people without legal status only use the hospitals for emergency and also do not utilize government assistance and somehow are able to live in america...
It supports my term limit idea for the "trailor trash burden-majority" with a family tradition of multi-generational welfare recipients.... people without legal status are able to make it some how... logically so should the multi-generational welfare recipients if they got their welfare cut off...
and I guess as a gambler I would rather gamble on people with legal without legal status that work under the table and do what it takes to survive without government assistance over multi-generational welfare recipients...
I think you missed answering this question...
Should all people coming in to the country learn English as a second language and American history?
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