Gaz-a-Lago

@wallstreetcappers

 My contention is this does not mean peace, your contention is that it does.

No sir. 

That is not my position; that has never been my position; that would never be my position.  That is nonsense and absurd. 

You are attempting to strawman my position in order to attack that position.

You cannot juxtapose two vastly different viewpoints by attempting an univocal usage of the word ‘peace’.

As someone who has traversed the globe their entire life and career and been in multiple war zones and conflicted areas, I fully understand the depth of the destruction and devastation there.  I know, by necessity, the history of lots of these areas, including this one.  I fully acknowledge the issues there, including the Old Testament part of it.

No one disputes that this is the case.  In fact, I would wager 99+% feel that way.  That is not what is being referred to with this peace deal.  This is to quell this enough to get the hostages back and to halt the current war that is going on.

That is the point in the quote: “Peace is not only better than war, but infinitely more arduous.”

No one doubts that there will have to be future endeavors to try to have a longer timeframe of peace.

You, for sure, would hope and pray for peace long enough for the next generation to come into leadership with, hopefully, a more peaceful mindset.  It will indeed be hard when school kids are taught math based on how many hypotheticals of the enemy they have killed.  No one questions the efforts that it would take for a longer peaceful solution.

This deal is to get the hostages back and stop some of the devastation while one side is being depleted of weapons.  The hope is that they will not continue to pursue them for the sole purpose of restarting this.  This deal is that there might be hope for a leadership change that would not oppress its own people by pilfering funds that would feed them to pursue weapons and recruit soldiers.  This deal is to at least calm one side down by giving back the remainder of their people.

No one doubts that then one side will go back to planning and stockpiling to do this again, while the other side can simply try to play defense as best as it can with what some think was questionable intelligence.

As they say, “Hope for the best; plan for the worst.”

But when you come into a thread and start by pooh-poohing the premise, then back it up with a sense of victim-blaming, then belittle the folks commenting in the thread, then tether it all together with a dismissive and despondent attitude by saying, ‘…oh well, there will never be longterm peace in that area for all eternity…’ — that is simply too deep of self-dug hole to climb out of.

Simply repositioning the original premise to another of your liking is not good enough to justify not wanting to agree that this should be a cause for celebration.

It is bewildering how you cannot think that this is good and at least give Trump some credit for attempting something when no one else has.

“The future depends on what we do in the present” — Gandhi

@wallstreetcappers

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I don't disagree with anything you said there. The ideology of that region with Israel was created as opposed to earned. This, of course, in terms of wars fought to obtain land and balance through forceful lives lost and domination through brute power, which is how most of the world's boundaries were drawn. I can agree that handing the land over and religion is part of the tumultuous stake in that region. The religious beliefs in that region are something else and create just about all of the extreme division. 

The problem is that Israel believes the land was given to them for very different reasons relating to religion and to escape persecution from WWII. They also feel the land was taken from them. The land was divided by the UN, fairly, that is obviously the debate and has been for all these years. Because of what happened to the Jewish people it was a form of retribution or guilt, so to speak, similar to the US and the Indians. The actions of the Holocaust put the area in extreme turmoil and the Jewish people in the area felt that the land was entitled to them for various purposes. The boundaries that were drawn never sat well with many in the region which is why the conflict still exists today. I mean, as soon as Israel was declared Israel they were invaded with bombs dropping and it has been that way ever since. It's the most bizarre area in the entire world with its endless tension and wars. I don't think the British division of land was meant to be permanent, but rather a temporary solution, however as soon as the British left Israel was bombed...basically the Arab nations and Palestines  rejected any such dividing from the get go. The British did not wish to entertain the conflict of the region so they essentially abandoned it. The issue is, even to this day, is that the Palestines were not and are not a nation. Israel was created, but technically the majority Palestinian land is in Jordan not in Israel. 

The British may have yucked this up...getting involved thinking they were helping with the League of Nations, but this backfired tremendously and is still an ongoing issue today. I'd say that's a lousy fuckup...intentions may have been good, but the execution not...the British had no plans on staying and bringing prevailing peace, nor did they quite understand what that may have meant, but once the shit hit the fan they were out or it could be viewed the other way around..I'm sure someone knew something...the intricacies and nuances in this region are one of the most fascinating in the entire world that is for sure...on one hand the Jewish people were forced out of the region and then given the land back...guilt trip for what happened to them or was it the right thing to do? That's the question...

But, your assessment is not ho hum, it does hold merit

@ABooksNightmare

 The ideology of that region with Israel was created as opposed to earned. This, of course, in terms of wars fought to obtain land and balance through forceful lives lost and domination through brute power, which is how most of the world's boundaries were drawn. I can agree that handing the land over and religion is part of the tumultuous stake in that region. The religious beliefs in that region are something else and create just about all of the extreme division. 

Depending on how much emphasis you put into the study of it you will find that this is only part of it.  This part of it is simply the proximity of them to each other in this instance.

To fully understand why there is not an easy solution there or anywhere else, you have to be able to answer exactly why this has been the case for them in any, and every other, part of the world forever.  

It is a largely superficial view to lay it all at the feet of the geography.  It is simply the low-hanging fruit, as they say.

@unplucked_gem

 Yessir.  The play on words in the title was the main reason I clicked on the thread to start with.

Nicely done.

@packersbackers 

Post 17 deserves a standing ovation.

You owe him nothing, no response, and certainly no retraction.

He is full of black hate, just like the leaders of Palestine. He is the epitome of the problem, not the solution. 

Having ate up the last two years of Palestinian propaganda, there is absolutely no chance he will ever accept undeniable truth with evidence.

I repeat, any form of interaction with these type of people should be avoided. 

The left doesn't celebrate the remaining hostages back alive, this is part of their mental sickness when it comes to true humanitarian issues.

Regarding the release of hostages, the disgusting silence from the left, and from every global leader other than USA has been deafening over the past 2 years.

Only Trump stood up and denounced the October 7 attack. Only Trump worked endlessly to find a peace deal. TDS suffers will never allow themselves to be happy for this war to come to an end. 

While I understand what you are saying, I disagree a tad.

I much prefer to discuss, argue, debate with someone with an opposing view.  I prefer more than a cheerleader discussion to reinforce my views.

There are many times where someone from the other side can bring up things that matter to them, or that they see differently, that I may not have fully considered.

Even in-person debates, or even the podcast debates of today are better when that is the case.  Especially, when there is civility and substance and not a lot of yelling back and forth -- which a lot of them are.  The ones that are all one-sided just are not that interesting to me.  Sure, some folks can present the point(s) in better and more articulate ways.  But it is still the same point(s).

On here, he is about the only one from the Left side that will even attempt discourse.  There are a few exceptions.  There are other political forums where this can be done more effectively.  

But this is mainly a sports forum and the politics is just here to pass the time during, or in between, games, etc.

Good article on how this deal all came about and how each particular situation helped garner the deal..hostages were released from both sides and if that's not something to be happy about then I'm not sure what makes you tick

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/israel-hamas-ceasefire-deal-came-together-rcna236789?utm_source=firefox-newtab-en-us

@ABooksNightmare

 Hostages are an Israel demand and what they want, this is not shocking in the slightest since Israel is the gun holder making the demand I mean negotiation terms and does this mean that in return Israel will vacate the area, split the resources, rebuild what they destroyed and equally exist in the area?

No...so it is not a negotiation it is not peace it is not equitable and it is not serving the interests of every single breathing human in the region, this serves Israel only and we should punish them for this act of war and destruction of their enemy.

@wallstreetcappers

 You may be missing my point just a bit. Are you able to just be happy for the prisoners being released and that some form of aid is on its way to people in need. I mean this is tremendous for them and their families and it is a great step in whatever direction this eventually goes. Yes, all of what is happening over there is completely wrong, but you have to be happy for these folks. You have to be happy for the humanitarian effort that is about to take place. If that was you being held captive and you were being released, I would be happy for you. You're talking about change in the region, which is the bigger picture and does need to take place, but we got baby steps happening and I never thought that baby would ever walk....Right now, these hostages being released, is a huge and unprecedented win. Aid to those in need is a huge win. We'll see if everyone holds their end up or if this can go further than right here. They are some stubborn people over there in that region, but can we at least be a little bit happy for the people for at least a moment?

Thank you however this happened.....

@ABooksNightmare

 I do not look at it that way because the number of lost lives from the war invasion is a massive multiple of the hostages that this started from. When I see those kids in Gaza having a roof over their heads and rights and freedoms to not be a land locked slave to Israel then I will cheer the hostage release. I see the big picture and I see this hostage "negotiation" as an insult and abomination while families in poverty without food and lights and utilities are wondering what their future holds since Israel was allowed to decimate Gaza..

Don't blame Israel for the rat infested place that is Gaza.  It has the potential to be a beautiful sea side town, but Gaza's leadership (Hamas) has preferred terrorism in recent decades w no real economy to speak of...  Right now is the time for Gazans to put in place a government that isn't rooted in terrorism,  and to get rid of the indoctrination that is taking place w their youth in schools.   They are taught J-ews need to be killed. 

So , stop blaming the Israelis for Gaza's plight.  It is largely self- inflicted.  

Ironic that Maria Machado is 2025 Nobel prize winner because she is an advocate for democratic rights in Venezuela.  In contrast, Trump is a threat to US democracy.  Undermining press freedom, rule of law and elections while engaged in corruption and disinformation.

[Quote: Originally Posted by thirdperson]Ironic that Maria Machado is 2025 Nobel prize winner because she is an advocate for democratic rights in Venezuela.  In contrast, Trump is a threat to US democracy.  Undermining press freedom, rule of law and elections while engaged in corruption and disinformation.[/Quote]

And yet, the people voted him in 2x, .... 3x times really if you want to know the truth. 

So, give it a rest.... it all falls on deaf ears to people w some common sense 

@Rush51

 Did Palestine get a fair and equitable divide on the land deal when the UN gave Israel the area they reside? Does Gaza have open access, full utilities and development? Take a drone and fly it over the area and compare that zone with an area within 10 miles of the same spot and tell me if it is the same?

Israel land lock control the in and out of Gaza, the land is not as fertile and robust as land off the water. If you go to most any area right on a body of water you will see that the salts and impacts of the water make the land less nutrient rich than land say 5 miles from the water. That area is barren and not suitable for development and cultivation without MILLIONS of dollars of infrastructure and development, did the UN give Palestine the good section of regional land? No...has the UN made sure that Palestine has funds to develop infrastructure and commerce to a level equal to Israel and surrounding countries? No...in fact if you ask me that area is like a military practice range where there is no certainty it could ever be developed and flourish into what it might be, the conflict there and a lack of capital make it a barren waste zone.

Israel is 100% to blame for the current state of Gaza, but then so is the USA and UN and all countries who are involved with the UN. Lets see if the humanitarian and kind Trump empire will spend say 5 BILLION of their crypto scam theft money to develop Gaza and remove Israel from being the gate keeper and hostage taker of all residents, lets see if there is ANY attempt to be fair to all the living breathing souls who live their lives there, the women and children the people who are not at fault or blame. Lets see if ANYONE cares about those living in that area and have a desire to elevate a group of people who have been decimated by Israel.

@unplucked_gem

 My comments are not LEFT comments and in reality many on the LEFT are strongly pro-Israel. I look at the value of every single life, every breathing soul that lives not what party they belong to and if I agree with their politics. My comments are only about the inequity and destruction of one people, the control and domination of one group over another. 

Nothing in this discussion is about a political ideology for me, my reference point if I say something political is that nobody is or has stood up for Palestine and nobody stood in front of the massacre as it was happening.

Trump is a threat to US democracy.  Watchdog International institute for democracy reports twice as many instances of US government eroding democratic norms in Trump first 4 months of second term than in previous two years under Biden.    Clear evidences of increasing authoritarianism include efforts to restrict freedoms of media and academia.  His administration attacks institutions, fire dissidents, criminalizes protests, rejects rule of law, indicts critics, militarizes US cities, questions the legitimacy of elections, undermines due process, dismantles checks and balances.  

Yes trump did get voted in by lots of people, but what falls on deaf ears is the number of people that voted for trump got mesmerized by all his bullshit lies and pie in the sky promises. Like him being able to end the russia/ukraine war on 24 hours. You know how many suckers fell for that,amongst his many bullshit promises.  See its pretty simple people know what their views are and if a politician says what they want to hear, even thou they know they wont fill those promises they will say it to the guppies in the world.  Trump is one of the greatest con artists of all time. Most across the country never knew really anything about trump other then watching him fire people on that totally fake reality show

another maga that talks about following the constitution, then clearly promotes trump for a third term when you know he cant. Guess you dont like that part of the Constitution.  See when you make stupid ass posts like this, it proves you are just a troll here to cause trouble. Covers should really let people like you go, cause you arent here to debate anything.   You Just make posts that give you a rise in your jeans and make you all giddy behind your computer screen. Whatever rocks your boat i guess.

lmfaooooooooooooooooooooooooooo emergency powers for what? Because trump says its an emergency.  Country has done just fine for 249 years.  Really your display of ass kissing trumps ass is disgusting. Do you not have any self respect, idolizing a career con artist

Thats good, means obama can run then and he will smoke his ass and that will make all you maga morons jump off a cliff, knowing a black man smoked your racist idol