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All Forums | NFL Betting

Stop with the emotions and look at the math....Belichick made the right call

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tallguyindc
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tallguyindc
tallguyindc
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Posted: Nov. 16, 2009 - 1:41 AM ET #1

I'm watching all of the commentary and the consensus among people on this is that Belichick let the emotions get the best of him and let emotion override discretion and wisdom.  They made a stupid call and thats why the Patriots lost.  I really don't get it.  Don't these people realize that this is why the Belichick is Belichick?  Calls like this one are why he has won all those Super Bowls.  Seriously, the man has the numbers on his side.

Consider a thought experiment.  What should the Colts have done if the call was up to them?  Belichick calls timeout and crosses the field and tells Caldwell.  Its up to you.  I can punt or I can go.

If you are Caldwell, do you give up a sure opportunity for Manning to get the ball back with plenty of time left in order to gamble that Brady couldn't get 2 yards.  Or do you take the safe route and ask them to punt?

My guess is that nearly every commentator that is saying that Belichick should have punted there would have told Caldwell that he should have accepted a punt if it was up to him.  The thing is that is wrong.  Its just blatantly and obviously wrong.  If going was a mistake for the Pats, it had to be a benefit to the Colts.  And vice versa.  But the truth is, if Caldwell had done that he would have been making a huge and bad gamble.  

Here is the math:  I'm going to give the algebra first and then fill in the variables.  There might be some debate over the numbers, but this is the basic formula.  You really can't argue with the formula.  You can only change the numbers in it.

Psucc = Probability of converting 4th down

Pi65 = Probability of stopping from Indy from scoring giving Indy the ball 65 yards out.

Pi28 = Probability of stopping Indy from scoring giving them the ball 28 yards out.

If  Psucc + (1- Psucc) * Pi28 > Pi65, you should go for it.  If

Psucc + (1- Psucc) * Pi28 < Pi65 you should punt.  Its that simple.  Now, all you have to do is plug the appropriate numbers in. 

I have a fairly complicated model that I use.  It basically takes NFL averages and adjusts for the strength of the offense and the defense in question.  I have:

Psucc = 60%

Pi65 = 58%

Pi28 = 73%

Win Probability of going for it =

0.6 + (0.4 * 0.58) = 0.83

83% > 73%

The calculated and logical decision was to go for it.  The emotional decision was to give into the emotion of fear and punt.

I'm curious for all of the people that question the call, what numbers they were plugging into their calculations.

It seems to me like they are saying two sort of contradictory things.  They seem to think Pi28 is really low because Manning is the best QB on earth.  They also seem to think that Pi65 is really high because there is no way that Manning could score from 65 yards out with 2 minutes and a timeout left.  I'm not sure how those two facts seem to work together.  I wish that some of these people that are saying that punting is the "smart" decision would explain some of the logic behind their mathematical model because I really don't get it.  I've tried changing the variables around....making Manning stronger or weaker.  The thing is that when I change Pi28, I need to change Pi65 as well.  Any numbers that have any semblance to reality for probabilities say you should go for it.  I know this is strange and that it doesn't hold to conventional wisdom.  But remember conventional wisdom is long on convention and short on wisdom.

Thats the other weird thing about the "have confidence in your defense" argument.  Belichick did have confidence in his defense.  The 4th down move wasn't a bet that the offense would win the game on that play.  It was a bet that either the offense would win on that play or the defense would hold them for the last 28 yards.

 

Google David Romer 4th down.  Romer is a professor at Stanford.  He did a whole long mathematical analysis on this topic.   Nearly every other math person that has looked at this topic in any detail agrees with Romer.  The Patriots are the Patriots because they take calculated risks.  I'd expect gamblers or "sports investors" as a lot of the people on this blog seem to describe themselves as the kind of people that would instinctually understand this.

 

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To remove first post, remove entire topic.

I'm watching all of the commentary and the consensus among people on this is that Belichick let the emotions get the best of him and let emotion override discretion and wisdom.  They made a stupid call and thats why the Patriots lost.  I really don't get it.  Don't these people realize that this is why the Belichick is Belichick?  Calls like this one are why he has won all those Super Bowls.  Seriously, the man has the numbers on his side.

Consider a thought experiment.  What should the Colts have done if the call was up to them?  Belichick calls timeout and crosses the field and tells Caldwell.  Its up to you.  I can punt or I can go.

If you are Caldwell, do you give up a sure opportunity for Manning to get the ball back with plenty of time left in order to gamble that Brady couldn't get 2 yards.  Or do you take the safe route and ask them to punt?

My guess is that nearly every commentator that is saying that Belichick should have punted there would have told Caldwell that he should have accepted a punt if it was up to him.  The thing is that is wrong.  Its just blatantly and obviously wrong.  If going was a mistake for the Pats, it had to be a benefit to the Colts.  And vice versa.  But the truth is, if Caldwell had done that he would have been making a huge and bad gamble.  

Here is the math:  I'm going to give the algebra first and then fill in the variables.  There might be some debate over the numbers, but this is the basic formula.  You really can't argue with the formula.  You can only change the numbers in it.

Psucc = Probability of converting 4th down

Pi65 = Probability of stopping from Indy from scoring giving Indy the ball 65 yards out.

Pi28 = Probability of stopping Indy from scoring giving them the ball 28 yards out.

If  Psucc + (1- Psucc) * Pi28 > Pi65, you should go for it.  If

Psucc + (1- Psucc) * Pi28 < Pi65 you should punt.  Its that simple.  Now, all you have to do is plug the appropriate numbers in. 

I have a fairly complicated model that I use.  It basically takes NFL averages and adjusts for the strength of the offense and the defense in question.  I have:

Psucc = 60%

Pi65 = 58%

Pi28 = 73%

Win Probability of going for it =

0.6 + (0.4 * 0.58) = 0.83

83% > 73%

The calculated and logical decision was to go for it.  The emotional decision was to give into the emotion of fear and punt.

I'm curious for all of the people that question the call, what numbers they were plugging into their calculations.

It seems to me like they are saying two sort of contradictory things.  They seem to think Pi28 is really low because Manning is the best QB on earth.  They also seem to think that Pi65 is really high because there is no way that Manning could score from 65 yards out with 2 minutes and a timeout left.  I'm not sure how those two facts seem to work together.  I wish that some of these people that are saying that punting is the "smart" decision would explain some of the logic behind their mathematical model because I really don't get it.  I've tried changing the variables around....making Manning stronger or weaker.  The thing is that when I change Pi28, I need to change Pi65 as well.  Any numbers that have any semblance to reality for probabilities say you should go for it.  I know this is strange and that it doesn't hold to conventional wisdom.  But remember conventional wisdom is long on convention and short on wisdom.

Thats the other weird thing about the "have confidence in your defense" argument.  Belichick did have confidence in his defense.  The 4th down move wasn't a bet that the offense would win the game on that play.  It was a bet that either the offense would win on that play or the defense would hold them for the last 28 yards.

 

Google David Romer 4th down.  Romer is a professor at Stanford.  He did a whole long mathematical analysis on this topic.   Nearly every other math person that has looked at this topic in any detail agrees with Romer.  The Patriots are the Patriots because they take calculated risks.  I'd expect gamblers or "sports investors" as a lot of the people on this blog seem to describe themselves as the kind of people that would instinctually understand this.

 

 
SharpCheddar
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Posted: Nov. 16, 2009 - 2:21 AM ET #2

...omg he's right.
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...omg he's right.
 
richardtonsj
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Posted: Nov. 16, 2009 - 2:38 AM ET #3

but does the math model actually takes in account the field position and the game situation when going for it on 4th and 2?  
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but does the math model actually takes in account the field position and the game situation when going for it on 4th and 2?  
 
buckeye61
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Posted: Nov. 16, 2009 - 3:01 AM ET #4

[Quote: Originally Posted by richardtonsj] but does the math model actually takes in account the field position and the game situation when going for it on 4th and 2?   [/Quote

Or the intangibles like how battered is the N. E. defense at that point.  I still would have punted so I wouldn't have to answer the question all week, but Bill figured he would "get it" and be the gutsy genious. Not an easy decision really the way Manning can move the ball in the prevent...but they would have been easier on him had he punted and lost while playing the best %'age.  

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[Quote: Originally Posted by richardtonsj] but does the math model actually takes in account the field position and the game situation when going for it on 4th and 2?   [/Quote

Or the intangibles like how battered is the N. E. defense at that point.  I still would have punted so I wouldn't have to answer the question all week, but Bill figured he would "get it" and be the gutsy genious. Not an easy decision really the way Manning can move the ball in the prevent...but they would have been easier on him had he punted and lost while playing the best %'age.  

 
3825
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Posted: Nov. 16, 2009 - 3:53 AM ET #5

i respect math, especially when it comes to sports . . . but i'm curious, does romer have a large enough sample of plays of this nature to offer probability that are consistent with the theory of large numbers.   clearly, this was a reasonable 4th down play that was decisive to the game result, and not some 4th and 2 play when a team is on there own 28 and trailing by 5 points.  as we all know, decisive plays should be judged differently than either random plays or 4th down plays when a team is trailing and the play isn't considered decisive (winner take all) for both teams.

i'm not dismissing his math, but how many plays from his sample size came from a game of this nature ?  on the flipside, perhaps bill is just playing the averages . . . if he does that 10 times, he will be successful 8 times . . . we just happened to see one of the two.

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i respect math, especially when it comes to sports . . . but i'm curious, does romer have a large enough sample of plays of this nature to offer probability that are consistent with the theory of large numbers.   clearly, this was a reasonable 4th down play that was decisive to the game result, and not some 4th and 2 play when a team is on there own 28 and trailing by 5 points.  as we all know, decisive plays should be judged differently than either random plays or 4th down plays when a team is trailing and the play isn't considered decisive (winner take all) for both teams.

i'm not dismissing his math, but how many plays from his sample size came from a game of this nature ?  on the flipside, perhaps bill is just playing the averages . . . if he does that 10 times, he will be successful 8 times . . . we just happened to see one of the two.

 
tallguyindc
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Posted: Nov. 16, 2009 - 4:44 AM ET #6

Quote Originally Posted by buckeye61:

Quote Originally Posted by richardtonsj:

but does the math model actually takes in account the field position and the game situation when going for it on 4th and 2?   [/Quote

Or the intangibles like how battered is the N. E. defense at that point.  I still would have punted so I wouldn't have to answer the question all week, but Bill figured he would "get it" and be the gutsy genious. Not an easy decision really the way Manning can move the ball in the prevent...but they would have been easier on him had he punted and lost while playing the best %'age.  

 

I think that is part of the issue.  Almost all coaches would punt there, but its not because its the better move.  Its because it can shift the blame to someone else.  By going, he loses 17% of the time.  The media will blame him and call him all sorts of names 17% of the time.  The call isn't the headline story the other 83% of the time.  During those situations, people forget the call and focus on someone else.

 If he punted, his team would lose 27% of the time, but the reporters would blame someone else.  From a purely selfish view, punting is the correct move.  Save yourself and screw the team.   There are more than a few coaches out there that understand the math and punt anyway. 

I just wish the commentators and fans would realize this.  Its hard for a coach to talk about players sacrificing themselves for the team and not live up to it with their own decision making....

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Quote Originally Posted by buckeye61:

Quote Originally Posted by richardtonsj:

but does the math model actually takes in account the field position and the game situation when going for it on 4th and 2?   [/Quote

Or the intangibles like how battered is the N. E. defense at that point.  I still would have punted so I wouldn't have to answer the question all week, but Bill figured he would "get it" and be the gutsy genious. Not an easy decision really the way Manning can move the ball in the prevent...but they would have been easier on him had he punted and lost while playing the best %'age.  

 

I think that is part of the issue.  Almost all coaches would punt there, but its not because its the better move.  Its because it can shift the blame to someone else.  By going, he loses 17% of the time.  The media will blame him and call him all sorts of names 17% of the time.  The call isn't the headline story the other 83% of the time.  During those situations, people forget the call and focus on someone else.

 If he punted, his team would lose 27% of the time, but the reporters would blame someone else.  From a purely selfish view, punting is the correct move.  Save yourself and screw the team.   There are more than a few coaches out there that understand the math and punt anyway. 

I just wish the commentators and fans would realize this.  Its hard for a coach to talk about players sacrificing themselves for the team and not live up to it with their own decision making....

 
SteelRain
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Posted: Nov. 16, 2009 - 8:35 AM ET #7

Quote Originally Posted by tallguyindc:

I'm watching all of the commentary and the consensus among people on this is that Belichick let the emotions get the best of him and let emotion override discretion and wisdom.  They made a stupid call and thats why the Patriots lost.  I really don't get it.  Don't these people realize that this is why the Belichick is Belichick?  Calls like this one are why he has won all those Super Bowls.  Seriously, the man has the numbers on his side.

Consider a thought experiment.  What should the Colts have done if the call was up to them?  Belichick calls timeout and crosses the field and tells Caldwell.  Its up to you.  I can punt or I can go.

If you are Caldwell, do you give up a sure opportunity for Manning to get the ball back with plenty of time left in order to gamble that Brady couldn't get 2 yards.  Or do you take the safe route and ask them to punt?

My guess is that nearly every commentator that is saying that Belichick should have punted there would have told Caldwell that he should have accepted a punt if it was up to him.  The thing is that is wrong.  Its just blatantly and obviously wrong.  If going was a mistake for the Pats, it had to be a benefit to the Colts.  And vice versa.  But the truth is, if Caldwell had done that he would have been making a huge and bad gamble.  

Here is the math:  I'm going to give the algebra first and then fill in the variables.  There might be some debate over the numbers, but this is the basic formula.  You really can't argue with the formula.  You can only change the numbers in it.

Psucc = Probability of converting 4th down

Pi65 = Probability of stopping from Indy from scoring giving Indy the ball 65 yards out.

Pi28 = Probability of stopping Indy from scoring giving them the ball 28 yards out.

If  Psucc + (1- Psucc) * Pi28 > Pi65, you should go for it.  If

Psucc + (1- Psucc) * Pi28 < Pi65 you should punt.  Its that simple.  Now, all you have to do is plug the appropriate numbers in. 

I have a fairly complicated model that I use.  It basically takes NFL averages and adjusts for the strength of the offense and the defense in question.  I have:

Psucc = 60%

Pi65 = 58%

Pi28 = 73%

Win Probability of going for it =

0.6 + (0.4 * 0.58) = 0.83

83% > 73%

The calculated and logical decision was to go for it.  The emotional decision was to give into the emotion of fear and punt.

I'm curious for all of the people that question the call, what numbers they were plugging into their calculations.

It seems to me like they are saying two sort of contradictory things.  They seem to think Pi28 is really low because Manning is the best QB on earth.  They also seem to think that Pi65 is really high because there is no way that Manning could score from 65 yards out with 2 minutes and a timeout left.  I'm not sure how those two facts seem to work together.  I wish that some of these people that are saying that punting is the "smart" decision would explain some of the logic behind their mathematical model because I really don't get it.  I've tried changing the variables around....making Manning stronger or weaker.  The thing is that when I change Pi28, I need to change Pi65 as well.  Any numbers that have any semblance to reality for probabilities say you should go for it.  I know this is strange and that it doesn't hold to conventional wisdom.  But remember conventional wisdom is long on convention and short on wisdom.

Thats the other weird thing about the "have confidence in your defense" argument.  Belichick did have confidence in his defense.  The 4th down move wasn't a bet that the offense would win the game on that play.  It was a bet that either the offense would win on that play or the defense would hold them for the last 28 yards.

 

Google David Romer 4th down.  Romer is a professor at Stanford.  He did a whole long mathematical analysis on this topic.   Nearly every other math person that has looked at this topic in any detail agrees with Romer.  The Patriots are the Patriots because they take calculated risks.  I'd expect gamblers or "sports investors" as a lot of the people on this blog seem to describe themselves as the kind of people that would instinctually understand this.

 



Bro,

    Your reasoning is sound, but your post just went straight over the head of most of the board. There are too many idiots pounding the table about this game being 'fixed' to allow your logic to penetrate their thick skulls.

    
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Quote Originally Posted by tallguyindc:

I'm watching all of the commentary and the consensus among people on this is that Belichick let the emotions get the best of him and let emotion override discretion and wisdom.  They made a stupid call and thats why the Patriots lost.  I really don't get it.  Don't these people realize that this is why the Belichick is Belichick?  Calls like this one are why he has won all those Super Bowls.  Seriously, the man has the numbers on his side.

Consider a thought experiment.  What should the Colts have done if the call was up to them?  Belichick calls timeout and crosses the field and tells Caldwell.  Its up to you.  I can punt or I can go.

If you are Caldwell, do you give up a sure opportunity for Manning to get the ball back with plenty of time left in order to gamble that Brady couldn't get 2 yards.  Or do you take the safe route and ask them to punt?

My guess is that nearly every commentator that is saying that Belichick should have punted there would have told Caldwell that he should have accepted a punt if it was up to him.  The thing is that is wrong.  Its just blatantly and obviously wrong.  If going was a mistake for the Pats, it had to be a benefit to the Colts.  And vice versa.  But the truth is, if Caldwell had done that he would have been making a huge and bad gamble.  

Here is the math:  I'm going to give the algebra first and then fill in the variables.  There might be some debate over the numbers, but this is the basic formula.  You really can't argue with the formula.  You can only change the numbers in it.

Psucc = Probability of converting 4th down

Pi65 = Probability of stopping from Indy from scoring giving Indy the ball 65 yards out.

Pi28 = Probability of stopping Indy from scoring giving them the ball 28 yards out.

If  Psucc + (1- Psucc) * Pi28 > Pi65, you should go for it.  If

Psucc + (1- Psucc) * Pi28 < Pi65 you should punt.  Its that simple.  Now, all you have to do is plug the appropriate numbers in. 

I have a fairly complicated model that I use.  It basically takes NFL averages and adjusts for the strength of the offense and the defense in question.  I have:

Psucc = 60%

Pi65 = 58%

Pi28 = 73%

Win Probability of going for it =

0.6 + (0.4 * 0.58) = 0.83

83% > 73%

The calculated and logical decision was to go for it.  The emotional decision was to give into the emotion of fear and punt.

I'm curious for all of the people that question the call, what numbers they were plugging into their calculations.

It seems to me like they are saying two sort of contradictory things.  They seem to think Pi28 is really low because Manning is the best QB on earth.  They also seem to think that Pi65 is really high because there is no way that Manning could score from 65 yards out with 2 minutes and a timeout left.  I'm not sure how those two facts seem to work together.  I wish that some of these people that are saying that punting is the "smart" decision would explain some of the logic behind their mathematical model because I really don't get it.  I've tried changing the variables around....making Manning stronger or weaker.  The thing is that when I change Pi28, I need to change Pi65 as well.  Any numbers that have any semblance to reality for probabilities say you should go for it.  I know this is strange and that it doesn't hold to conventional wisdom.  But remember conventional wisdom is long on convention and short on wisdom.

Thats the other weird thing about the "have confidence in your defense" argument.  Belichick did have confidence in his defense.  The 4th down move wasn't a bet that the offense would win the game on that play.  It was a bet that either the offense would win on that play or the defense would hold them for the last 28 yards.

 

Google David Romer 4th down.  Romer is a professor at Stanford.  He did a whole long mathematical analysis on this topic.   Nearly every other math person that has looked at this topic in any detail agrees with Romer.  The Patriots are the Patriots because they take calculated risks.  I'd expect gamblers or "sports investors" as a lot of the people on this blog seem to describe themselves as the kind of people that would instinctually understand this.

 



Bro,

    Your reasoning is sound, but your post just went straight over the head of most of the board. There are too many idiots pounding the table about this game being 'fixed' to allow your logic to penetrate their thick skulls.

    
 
onion99
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Posted: Nov. 16, 2009 - 9:03 AM ET #8

great post
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great post
 
DOVJAK
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Posted: Nov. 16, 2009 - 9:15 AM ET #9

they still covered
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they still covered
 
kptran98
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Posted: Nov. 16, 2009 - 9:28 AM ET #10

Quote Originally Posted by DOVJAK:

they still covered
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Quote Originally Posted by DOVJAK:

they still covered
 
WizardOfOdd
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Posted: Nov. 16, 2009 - 9:35 AM ET #11

this is football not math class! 

 

and Billy still made the wrong call. 

 

now go back and do some more homework.

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this is football not math class! 

 

and Billy still made the wrong call. 

 

now go back and do some more homework.

 
Ice4Blood
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Posted: Nov. 16, 2009 - 10:09 AM ET #12

Quote Originally Posted by tallguyindc:

Thats the other weird thing about the "have confidence in your defense" argument.  Belichick did have confidence in his defense.  The 4th down move wasn't a bet that the offense would win the game on that play.  It was a bet that either the offense would win on that play or the defense would hold them for the last 28 yards.

 

read the whole argument... and it's basically right... people aren't understanding the probabilities involved here...

i just wanted to focus on this one part of your post, because people don't seem to be getting this...

 

BB did not make the call because he was afraid his defense wouldn't stop them... he made the call because he was over-confident in his offenses ability to end the game on that play... it was all about the offense, and none of it was about the defense...

please get that part straight!

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Quote Originally Posted by tallguyindc:

Thats the other weird thing about the "have confidence in your defense" argument.  Belichick did have confidence in his defense.  The 4th down move wasn't a bet that the offense would win the game on that play.  It was a bet that either the offense would win on that play or the defense would hold them for the last 28 yards.

 

read the whole argument... and it's basically right... people aren't understanding the probabilities involved here...

i just wanted to focus on this one part of your post, because people don't seem to be getting this...

 

BB did not make the call because he was afraid his defense wouldn't stop them... he made the call because he was over-confident in his offenses ability to end the game on that play... it was all about the offense, and none of it was about the defense...

please get that part straight!

 
MTFN50
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Posted: Nov. 16, 2009 - 10:15 AM ET #13

all I hear on espn is the % play is punting the ball.This complicated math equations dont really prove anything.Keep the math to poker ,You cant possibly believe that its better to go give Peyton of all people a chance to get the ball at the28 instead of haveing to drive 70yards.. Believe me the math isnt over  our heads  .u can make any thing look logical with numbers and equations pertaining to sports.

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all I hear on espn is the % play is punting the ball.This complicated math equations dont really prove anything.Keep the math to poker ,You cant possibly believe that its better to go give Peyton of all people a chance to get the ball at the28 instead of haveing to drive 70yards.. Believe me the math isnt over  our heads  .u can make any thing look logical with numbers and equations pertaining to sports.

 
MTFN50
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Posted: Nov. 16, 2009 - 10:20 AM ET #14

The funny part is what if he made  the 1st down  Is it a bad call with lucky results or a great call. I say bad call either way.Kinda like going all in  with bottom pair and hitting ur trips on the river 
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The funny part is what if he made  the 1st down  Is it a bad call with lucky results or a great call. I say bad call either way.Kinda like going all in  with bottom pair and hitting ur trips on the river 
 
Ice4Blood
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Posted: Nov. 16, 2009 - 10:34 AM ET #15

MTF... i'm going to have to ask all readers to ignore your posts... these forums are already corrupt enough in their thinking...
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MTF... i'm going to have to ask all readers to ignore your posts... these forums are already corrupt enough in their thinking...
 
MTFN50
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Posted: Nov. 16, 2009 - 10:44 AM ET #16

?????????????? 

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?????????????? 

 
MTFN50
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Posted: Nov. 16, 2009 - 10:47 AM ET #17

what will be ignored is your pompus arrogant better than other know it all attitude . and The fact tht your still debting this 
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what will be ignored is your pompus arrogant better than other know it all attitude . and The fact tht your still debting this 
 
jlb442
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Posted: Nov. 16, 2009 - 10:53 AM ET #18

I dont care if stats say he made the right call......

BB is a fucking arrogant cock sucker.....and he got what he deserves....plain and simple

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I dont care if stats say he made the right call......

BB is a fucking arrogant cock sucker.....and he got what he deserves....plain and simple

 
peepeedik09
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Posted: Nov. 16, 2009 - 11:00 AM ET #19

TALLGUY... if you want to play the numbers game... give us these numbers...

What's the percentage of teams leading by 4-6 points, that punt the ball with 2 minutes or less in the 4th quarter...  AND LOSE???????




 
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TALLGUY... if you want to play the numbers game... give us these numbers...

What's the percentage of teams leading by 4-6 points, that punt the ball with 2 minutes or less in the 4th quarter...  AND LOSE???????




 
 
MTFN50
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Posted: Nov. 16, 2009 - 11:00 AM ET #20

lol thank You JB well said
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lol thank You JB well said
 
2169
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Posted: Nov. 16, 2009 - 11:11 AM ET #21

I would have punted the ball to the colts, and the proceed to blitz Manning on every snap he took under center.
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I would have punted the ball to the colts, and the proceed to blitz Manning on every snap he took under center.
 
gameto11
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Posted: Nov. 16, 2009 - 11:13 AM ET #22

If i was caldwell i also wouldve wanted the pats to punt.  i mean brady only needing 2 yards to seal the game? good point.. i find it odd that EVERYBODY is against belichek on this one but maybe thats just cause hes a rude person
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If i was caldwell i also wouldve wanted the pats to punt.  i mean brady only needing 2 yards to seal the game? good point.. i find it odd that EVERYBODY is against belichek on this one but maybe thats just cause hes a rude person
 
gfinger
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Posted: Nov. 16, 2009 - 11:14 AM ET #23

Yeah, how about this stat. When the Pats are up 6 with 2:00 left and they punt the ball and the other team has to go ~70 yards, they win the game 95% of the time. That is a higher percentage than his 78% on 4th down. Think about it.
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Yeah, how about this stat. When the Pats are up 6 with 2:00 left and they punt the ball and the other team has to go ~70 yards, they win the game 95% of the time. That is a higher percentage than his 78% on 4th down. Think about it.
 
Ice4Blood
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Posted: Nov. 16, 2009 - 11:27 AM ET #24

Quote Originally Posted by jlb442:

I dont care if stats say he made the right call......

BB is a fucking arrogant cock sucker.....and he got what he deserves....plain and simple

completely agree...

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Quote Originally Posted by jlb442:

I dont care if stats say he made the right call......

BB is a fucking arrogant cock sucker.....and he got what he deserves....plain and simple

completely agree...

 
 
LongTermProfits
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Posted: Nov. 16, 2009 - 11:47 AM ET #25

i think you also have to figure in the "utility factor", which in the financial world is the phrase which describes the role emotion plays in making a decision/bet/investment

example, for most people the pain of losing $100.00 has much more impact on their life than the joy of winning $100.00 - hence the reason many people don't gamble on sports or actively manage their investments(they let someone else do it and only check quarterly results) - and they cut losses too quickly and don't let their winners run because of how they deal with the utility factor

so in this case, i wonder how we quantify the utility factor before the decision is made, which would encompass team morale about the decision if it failed(which it did), how the coaches and management would be affected, fans and media reaction(which has some impact on team morale and future decisions), etc.

not saying it wasn't the right decision, just saying it is hard to quantify the utility factor here...

 

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i think you also have to figure in the "utility factor", which in the financial world is the phrase which describes the role emotion plays in making a decision/bet/investment

example, for most people the pain of losing $100.00 has much more impact on their life than the joy of winning $100.00 - hence the reason many people don't gamble on sports or actively manage their investments(they let someone else do it and only check quarterly results) - and they cut losses too quickly and don't let their winners run because of how they deal with the utility factor

so in this case, i wonder how we quantify the utility factor before the decision is made, which would encompass team morale about the decision if it failed(which it did), how the coaches and management would be affected, fans and media reaction(which has some impact on team morale and future decisions), etc.

not saying it wasn't the right decision, just saying it is hard to quantify the utility factor here...

 

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