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    All Forums | NBA Betting Forum

    Rarely do I say Vegas knows more than I do but they must know something w/ Kings vs.Wizards. WRITEUP

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    scalabrine
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    scalabrine
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    Posted: Mar. 18, 2014 - 9:42 AM ET #1

    I don't like the 'Vegas Knows' theory. I've had lines move a full 4.5 points on some of my Knicks picks and the game turned out just as it was capped, line movement be damned allegedly 'roping in' squares.

    But this Kings game and the line Vegas opened it at perplexes me.

    First, the line.

    1. It opened at Kings +1.

    I was hoping to back the Kings here but I wanted, perhaps too optimistically, 4 and maybe even 4.5. How could I want that? The Wiz just spotted the Magic 5 at home on Friday. I'd much rather back a Magic team that is a very tough out at home when they come to play and one that has beaten OKC and the Pacers in their building than the Kings at home.

    While the Wiz covered that game, they won by 4 and only covered by 1. Every point and even half point over 4 becomes valuable in what will likely be a very close game.

    Some books already have this at +2 Kings. Why even open it at +1 when you will likely get the same action on +2 and then you can go to +3?

    The opening line screams that this will be a close game and as the spread gets to that valuable 4 point threshold, the Kings become a better and better bet. 

    So, and this is pure conjecture but not out of the realm of recognizing betting patterns and line movements as a capper, books want Wiz money at +1, a line they don't mind spotting as it requires an outright win by either team, and then when it gets to +2/+3 when the line becomes more valuable on the Kings end in a close finish, they can absorb the sharp action they likely suspect they will be receiving on Sacramento as it rises.

    I don't cap this way for my posted games as much but when I see lines open like this and I don't have all the info, I do rely on suspect movements and opening lines for some of my lesser bets.

    But there is a problem with that theory, a BIG problem.

    2. The kings are 0-10 without Cousins and we don't know his status yet.

    Vegas HAS to know something here because you can't put a line on this game without knowing if Demarcus is playing. 

    You think the 'star out - team steps up' theory applies to all teams? NOT with the kings and  NOT when it's Demarcus. 

    They've lost every single game without him playing. He matters. A LOT.

    I searched the web high and low for an injury report on Cousins all of yesterday.

    I found nothing.

    Cousins is day to day with a knee issue and didn't play the last game against the T-Wolves.

    So if he's not playing, watch out.

    Does Vegas care? Apparently not as they took action on this game without knowing his status (or did they?).

    Again, you have a low line without a player the kings apparently must have on the court to win a game. And with a line like +1, you must win. That point is irrelevant.

    Are the books saying the Kings are such a ripe spot, the Kings take this, and they don't care if he plays and don't need to give the kings points? I don't know but it screams of something unusual, that is, a great deal of confidence in the Sacto side IMO.

    Next point.


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    To remove first post, remove entire topic.
    I don't like the 'Vegas Knows' theory. I've had lines move a full 4.5 points on some of my Knicks picks and the game turned out just as it was capped, line movement be damned allegedly 'roping in' squares.

    But this Kings game and the line Vegas opened it at perplexes me.

    First, the line.

    1. It opened at Kings +1.

    I was hoping to back the Kings here but I wanted, perhaps too optimistically, 4 and maybe even 4.5. How could I want that? The Wiz just spotted the Magic 5 at home on Friday. I'd much rather back a Magic team that is a very tough out at home when they come to play and one that has beaten OKC and the Pacers in their building than the Kings at home.

    While the Wiz covered that game, they won by 4 and only covered by 1. Every point and even half point over 4 becomes valuable in what will likely be a very close game.

    Some books already have this at +2 Kings. Why even open it at +1 when you will likely get the same action on +2 and then you can go to +3?

    The opening line screams that this will be a close game and as the spread gets to that valuable 4 point threshold, the Kings become a better and better bet. 

    So, and this is pure conjecture but not out of the realm of recognizing betting patterns and line movements as a capper, books want Wiz money at +1, a line they don't mind spotting as it requires an outright win by either team, and then when it gets to +2/+3 when the line becomes more valuable on the Kings end in a close finish, they can absorb the sharp action they likely suspect they will be receiving on Sacramento as it rises.

    I don't cap this way for my posted games as much but when I see lines open like this and I don't have all the info, I do rely on suspect movements and opening lines for some of my lesser bets.

    But there is a problem with that theory, a BIG problem.

    2. The kings are 0-10 without Cousins and we don't know his status yet.

    Vegas HAS to know something here because you can't put a line on this game without knowing if Demarcus is playing. 

    You think the 'star out - team steps up' theory applies to all teams? NOT with the kings and  NOT when it's Demarcus. 

    They've lost every single game without him playing. He matters. A LOT.

    I searched the web high and low for an injury report on Cousins all of yesterday.

    I found nothing.

    Cousins is day to day with a knee issue and didn't play the last game against the T-Wolves.

    So if he's not playing, watch out.

    Does Vegas care? Apparently not as they took action on this game without knowing his status (or did they?).

    Again, you have a low line without a player the kings apparently must have on the court to win a game. And with a line like +1, you must win. That point is irrelevant.

    Are the books saying the Kings are such a ripe spot, the Kings take this, and they don't care if he plays and don't need to give the kings points? I don't know but it screams of something unusual, that is, a great deal of confidence in the Sacto side IMO.

    Next point.


     
    scalabrine
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    Posted: Mar. 18, 2014 - 9:42 AM ET #2

    3. Wiz are no team to fu** around with.

    They've won 8 of 11 and are surging. We don't need to deal with ATS here because the line is 1. They also like to feast on bad teams and the kings are near the very bottom, and really are the bottom of the West with the Lakers.

    The Kings have lost 10 of 13 and one of those wins was over the Sixers (exclude it and make it losing 9 of 12, a 25% win rate in their last 12.)

    And those wins came agaisnt bad teams.

    The last time the kings beat a team over .500 like the Wiz?

    FEBRUARY 5 when they beat the Raptors. It's March 18th folks.

    The night before that they beat the bulls at home, their true quality win in over 1.5 months. I posted that game as a Kings victory and was getting 2. The problem is the kings were on a 7 game slide and Cousins just RETURNED to the lineup. Do you think I would have taken the kings without him? No way. Also the losing streak mattered as their was public infighting and team meetings which resulted in urgency on the kings end.

    Now we have the Wiz at 35-31 with a similar record to the Bulls at 37-30. And it is a similar line to that Bulls game way when on Feb. 4.

    It would also be a similar situation if we knew cousins was playing and fully healthy (we don't) and if the kings were on a losing streak (they aren't but have lost a lot of late).

    Lastly, Cousins replacement is Aaron Gray. I've watched him all the way back in his Pitt days and me and my friends used to debate whether he'd be in the NBA for more than 3 years. We came to a conclusion of 'no.' Guys, he's a blob and really is a third string center and here he is starting for the Kings. The guy will give you nothing offensively and I'd take Jaodn Collins over him on defense. Still Vegas puts out a like requiring the kings to win and he might start.

    Despite him starting in place of Demarcus last game, the kings covered on the road against the Wolves and were neck and neck the whole way.

    Is this a sign they are ready to beat a quality team?

    Well we have to discount that cover.

    Derrick Williams scored 26 and 11 off the bench for the Kings. What was a major reason for that? The wolves are his ex team and gave up on him on his eyes. He exploded against them and they still lost. 

    Can you expect 26 and 11 from Williams? He averages 8 and 4 and makes about as much noise as a light sneeze on certain nights.

    4. Betting 101 - try to avoid teams on the first game back home of a long road trip.

    I've never checked it but it is likely negative EV to back such a team ATS.

    And here are the kings in the first game back after a SEVEN game trip and Vegas says, we'll give them at most a point on the opening line!

    Wow. Talk about going against convention.

    To the kings credit, they are 2-0 ATS in their last 2 against a very good Bulls team (who was in a revenge spot from February 4th loss so that is a quality cover) and a T-Wolves team that can play.

    Still they needed EVERY POINT of the spread to go 2-0, both losses SU, and tonight they open at +1 requiring an outright win??? Wow.

    What's the conculsion?

    Everything is out of whack with this line but Vegas has to think the Kings will take it because the Wiz money should be quite plentiful. But without Demarcus, that is not necessarily the right side (and questionable even with him). But to post a line without knowing his status...with a team that is 0-10 without him? And a line that requires you to win? And with a team off a grueling 7 game road trip? And all the above in addition?

    I hope I started a conversation about this game and if anyone has anything to add including Cousins status please do so.

    If you want the Kings, just stick around, the line can only rise.


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    3. Wiz are no team to fu** around with.

    They've won 8 of 11 and are surging. We don't need to deal with ATS here because the line is 1. They also like to feast on bad teams and the kings are near the very bottom, and really are the bottom of the West with the Lakers.

    The Kings have lost 10 of 13 and one of those wins was over the Sixers (exclude it and make it losing 9 of 12, a 25% win rate in their last 12.)

    And those wins came agaisnt bad teams.

    The last time the kings beat a team over .500 like the Wiz?

    FEBRUARY 5 when they beat the Raptors. It's March 18th folks.

    The night before that they beat the bulls at home, their true quality win in over 1.5 months. I posted that game as a Kings victory and was getting 2. The problem is the kings were on a 7 game slide and Cousins just RETURNED to the lineup. Do you think I would have taken the kings without him? No way. Also the losing streak mattered as their was public infighting and team meetings which resulted in urgency on the kings end.

    Now we have the Wiz at 35-31 with a similar record to the Bulls at 37-30. And it is a similar line to that Bulls game way when on Feb. 4.

    It would also be a similar situation if we knew cousins was playing and fully healthy (we don't) and if the kings were on a losing streak (they aren't but have lost a lot of late).

    Lastly, Cousins replacement is Aaron Gray. I've watched him all the way back in his Pitt days and me and my friends used to debate whether he'd be in the NBA for more than 3 years. We came to a conclusion of 'no.' Guys, he's a blob and really is a third string center and here he is starting for the Kings. The guy will give you nothing offensively and I'd take Jaodn Collins over him on defense. Still Vegas puts out a like requiring the kings to win and he might start.

    Despite him starting in place of Demarcus last game, the kings covered on the road against the Wolves and were neck and neck the whole way.

    Is this a sign they are ready to beat a quality team?

    Well we have to discount that cover.

    Derrick Williams scored 26 and 11 off the bench for the Kings. What was a major reason for that? The wolves are his ex team and gave up on him on his eyes. He exploded against them and they still lost. 

    Can you expect 26 and 11 from Williams? He averages 8 and 4 and makes about as much noise as a light sneeze on certain nights.

    4. Betting 101 - try to avoid teams on the first game back home of a long road trip.

    I've never checked it but it is likely negative EV to back such a team ATS.

    And here are the kings in the first game back after a SEVEN game trip and Vegas says, we'll give them at most a point on the opening line!

    Wow. Talk about going against convention.

    To the kings credit, they are 2-0 ATS in their last 2 against a very good Bulls team (who was in a revenge spot from February 4th loss so that is a quality cover) and a T-Wolves team that can play.

    Still they needed EVERY POINT of the spread to go 2-0, both losses SU, and tonight they open at +1 requiring an outright win??? Wow.

    What's the conculsion?

    Everything is out of whack with this line but Vegas has to think the Kings will take it because the Wiz money should be quite plentiful. But without Demarcus, that is not necessarily the right side (and questionable even with him). But to post a line without knowing his status...with a team that is 0-10 without him? And a line that requires you to win? And with a team off a grueling 7 game road trip? And all the above in addition?

    I hope I started a conversation about this game and if anyone has anything to add including Cousins status please do so.

    If you want the Kings, just stick around, the line can only rise.


     
    TGlobal
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    Posted: Mar. 18, 2014 - 9:54 AM ET #3

    nice writeup
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    nice writeup
     
    BaggerVANCE
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    Posted: Mar. 18, 2014 - 9:57 AM ET #4

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    215Hustler
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    Posted: Mar. 18, 2014 - 10:18 AM ET #5

    nice writeup
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    nice writeup
     
    IfYaSmellLALALA
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    Posted: Mar. 18, 2014 - 10:18 AM ET #6

    Its already at 2.5 in my book
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    Its already at 2.5 in my book
     
    spach79
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    Posted: Mar. 18, 2014 - 10:31 AM ET #7

    According to Yahoo (My Fantasy League) Cousins will most likely play today

    Here is what they said:

    "Kings coach Mike Malone said that it was his decision to rest DeMarcus Cousins on Sunday, though Cousins was officially listed as being out with a knee injury.

     "He needs a night off," Malone said. "He's been working his butt off the whole year, so it gives us an opportunity for some of these other guys to play and gives DeMarcus a chance to rest his body after a very long trip ... His body is pretty beat up." Aaron Gray didn't do anything of consequence in DMC's absence and it sounds like Cousins will be ready to go when Sacramento returns to action vs. the Wizards on Tuesday."


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    According to Yahoo (My Fantasy League) Cousins will most likely play today

    Here is what they said:

    "Kings coach Mike Malone said that it was his decision to rest DeMarcus Cousins on Sunday, though Cousins was officially listed as being out with a knee injury.

     "He needs a night off," Malone said. "He's been working his butt off the whole year, so it gives us an opportunity for some of these other guys to play and gives DeMarcus a chance to rest his body after a very long trip ... His body is pretty beat up." Aaron Gray didn't do anything of consequence in DMC's absence and it sounds like Cousins will be ready to go when Sacramento returns to action vs. the Wizards on Tuesday."


     
    JohnnyNBA
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    Posted: Mar. 18, 2014 - 10:42 AM ET #8

    Interesting writeup. Nothing on Cousins yet, but I'm guessing he'll play. An inside source said Cousins just needed a night off. That had to be known by the Linesmakers. 

    Check out the link below.....I always look at the "Look ahead spots" for teams, as the Wiz play the Blazers on Thursday, but not taking much into that.....especially when John Wall proclaimed this road trip as "defining their season". 

    https://www.csnwashington.com/basketball-washington-wizards/talk/wake-call-road-trip-defines-our-seaso
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    Interesting writeup. Nothing on Cousins yet, but I'm guessing he'll play. An inside source said Cousins just needed a night off. That had to be known by the Linesmakers. 

    Check out the link below.....I always look at the "Look ahead spots" for teams, as the Wiz play the Blazers on Thursday, but not taking much into that.....especially when John Wall proclaimed this road trip as "defining their season". 

    https://www.csnwashington.com/basketball-washington-wizards/talk/wake-call-road-trip-defines-our-seaso
     
    Jailbait7127
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    Posted: Mar. 18, 2014 - 10:52 AM ET #9

    Who are u taking Scal?
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    Who are u taking Scal?
     
    slick15
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    Posted: Mar. 18, 2014 - 10:53 AM ET #10

    If you want the Kings, just stick around, the line can only rise.

    Line just moved to 1.5 at Pinnacle.

    GL
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    If you want the Kings, just stick around, the line can only rise.

    Line just moved to 1.5 at Pinnacle.

    GL
     
    scalabrine
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    Posted: Mar. 18, 2014 - 10:58 AM ET #11

    Quote Originally Posted by TGlobal:

    nice writeup
    thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGlobal:

    nice writeup
    thanks
     
    scalabrine
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    Posted: Mar. 18, 2014 - 10:59 AM ET #12

    @bagger @ 215 
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    @bagger @ 215 
     
    scalabrine
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    Posted: Mar. 18, 2014 - 11:00 AM ET #13

    @ Johnny @spach given both your posts, we have to think cousins is a go. Thanks for finding that.

    AND the line is rising.
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    @ Johnny @spach given both your posts, we have to think cousins is a go. Thanks for finding that.

    AND the line is rising.
     
    rr207
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    Posted: Mar. 18, 2014 - 11:00 AM ET #14

    Never met a man that knew more than "Vegas"


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    Never met a man that knew more than "Vegas"


     
    scalabrine
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    Posted: Mar. 18, 2014 - 11:01 AM ET #15

    Quote Originally Posted by slick15:

    If you want the Kings, just stick around, the line can only rise.

    Line just moved to 1.5 at Pinnacle.

    GL

    2.5 from if ya and 1.5 here. I have 2 already on bovada.

    So cousins is likely playing and we are getting some line value if on the kings. I have to think it goes up some more and eventually hits 3.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slick15:

    If you want the Kings, just stick around, the line can only rise.

    Line just moved to 1.5 at Pinnacle.

    GL

    2.5 from if ya and 1.5 here. I have 2 already on bovada.

    So cousins is likely playing and we are getting some line value if on the kings. I have to think it goes up some more and eventually hits 3.
     
    scalabrine
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    Posted: Mar. 18, 2014 - 11:01 AM ET #16

    Quote Originally Posted by Jailbait7127:

    Who are u taking Scal?

    Waiting for some more line movement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jailbait7127:

    Who are u taking Scal?

    Waiting for some more line movement.
     
    scalabrine
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    Posted: Mar. 18, 2014 - 11:02 AM ET #17

    Quote Originally Posted by rr207:

    Never met a man that knew more than "Vegas"



    I'll put my knowledge of the Knicks up against Vegas.

    I did 7 times this year. I won 6 even with the line moving against me every time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rr207:

    Never met a man that knew more than "Vegas"



    I'll put my knowledge of the Knicks up against Vegas.

    I did 7 times this year. I won 6 even with the line moving against me every time.
     
    JohnnyNBA
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    Posted: Mar. 18, 2014 - 11:09 AM ET #18

    Thanks for raising....be interesting to see where this goes....

    Wiz while having 2 days off, are playing their 3rd game in 5 nights, while the Kings are playing their 3rd game in 4 nights.

    While the Kings suck at home and on Tuesday's their last 5 games (1-4 ATS for both), and are 2-7 ATS their last 9 playing on 1 days rest, one interesting trend I saw was:

    Kings are 7-1 ATS in their last 8 home games following a road trip of 7 or more days
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    Thanks for raising....be interesting to see where this goes....

    Wiz while having 2 days off, are playing their 3rd game in 5 nights, while the Kings are playing their 3rd game in 4 nights.

    While the Kings suck at home and on Tuesday's their last 5 games (1-4 ATS for both), and are 2-7 ATS their last 9 playing on 1 days rest, one interesting trend I saw was:

    Kings are 7-1 ATS in their last 8 home games following a road trip of 7 or more days
     
    scalabrine
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    Posted: Mar. 18, 2014 - 11:14 AM ET #19

    @johnny 

    That is an interesting trend at home to say the least but that has to go back many years so it must be disregarded.

    The days rest trend you noted is much more relevant.

    I wouldn't expect there to be many, if any good trend for Sacto given how much they lose though.
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    @johnny 

    That is an interesting trend at home to say the least but that has to go back many years so it must be disregarded.

    The days rest trend you noted is much more relevant.

    I wouldn't expect there to be many, if any good trend for Sacto given how much they lose though.
     
    JohnnyNBA
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    Posted: Mar. 18, 2014 - 11:26 AM ET #20

    Agreed Scal. I'm a HUGE trend guy, but your absolutely correct....they have to be relevant. I always check out StatFox trends, and found the 2 below (only 1 applies to this game). While they're a bit obscure, good percentages here....

    StatFox Super Situations 

    NBA | TORONTO at ATLANTA 
    Play On - Road favorites (TORONTO) average defensive team (43.5-45.5%) against a poor defensive team (45.5-47.5%) after 42+ games 156-90 over the last 5 seasons.  ( 63.4% | 57.0 units ) 21-7 this year.  ( 75.0% | 13.3 units ) 

    WASHINGTON at SACRAMENTO 
    Play Against - Any team vs the money line (SACRAMENTO) poor defensive team - shooting pct defense of >=46% on the season, averaging 53 or more rebounds/game on the season 191-87 over the last 5 seasons.  ( 68.7% | 67.6 units ) 88-56 this year.  ( 61.1% | 18.0 units ) 

    GL Whichever way everyone goes. 
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    Agreed Scal. I'm a HUGE trend guy, but your absolutely correct....they have to be relevant. I always check out StatFox trends, and found the 2 below (only 1 applies to this game). While they're a bit obscure, good percentages here....

    StatFox Super Situations 

    NBA | TORONTO at ATLANTA 
    Play On - Road favorites (TORONTO) average defensive team (43.5-45.5%) against a poor defensive team (45.5-47.5%) after 42+ games 156-90 over the last 5 seasons.  ( 63.4% | 57.0 units ) 21-7 this year.  ( 75.0% | 13.3 units ) 

    WASHINGTON at SACRAMENTO 
    Play Against - Any team vs the money line (SACRAMENTO) poor defensive team - shooting pct defense of >=46% on the season, averaging 53 or more rebounds/game on the season 191-87 over the last 5 seasons.  ( 68.7% | 67.6 units ) 88-56 this year.  ( 61.1% | 18.0 units ) 

    GL Whichever way everyone goes. 
     
    rr207
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    Posted: Mar. 18, 2014 - 11:31 AM ET #21

    Scalabrine, hope you choose the wizards. Bet now, think about it later.
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    Scalabrine, hope you choose the wizards. Bet now, think about it later.
     
    trustandfall
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    Posted: Mar. 18, 2014 - 11:39 AM ET #22

    Saw the line on this had moved to -2.5 earlier today, now it's dropped back to -1.5... I'm doubtful you're going to see anything higher than +2.5 for the Kings.

    I'm feeling pretty good about the Wizards. BOL to you.
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    Saw the line on this had moved to -2.5 earlier today, now it's dropped back to -1.5... I'm doubtful you're going to see anything higher than +2.5 for the Kings.

    I'm feeling pretty good about the Wizards. BOL to you.
     
    Crusher13
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    Posted: Mar. 18, 2014 - 11:58 AM ET #23

    Great writeup....On other note, what are your feelings into Jackson entering Knicks soap opera
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    Great writeup....On other note, what are your feelings into Jackson entering Knicks soap opera
     
    primetimeblitz
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    Posted: Mar. 18, 2014 - 12:06 PM ET #24

    When it comes to the KINGS, there's no such thing as value. I've been betting them all year and its the same old story. This team either gets a lead or gets within reach for a comeback and simply crumbles at crunch time. Off the top of my head, i don't know if any of their covers this year was within 3 points. This team loves to play the foul game...
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    When it comes to the KINGS, there's no such thing as value. I've been betting them all year and its the same old story. This team either gets a lead or gets within reach for a comeback and simply crumbles at crunch time. Off the top of my head, i don't know if any of their covers this year was within 3 points. This team loves to play the foul game...
     
     
    primetimeblitz
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    Posted: Mar. 18, 2014 - 12:11 PM ET #25

    Fwiw - this game opened at -2 for wiz . Nothing really tricky here.
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    Fwiw - this game opened at -2 for wiz . Nothing really tricky here.
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