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    All Forums | Investments

    Z-Score

    PayDaJuice
    Vermeer
    wallstreetcappers
    Participants:
    Search
    Views: 227
    Posts: 7
     
    PayDaJuice
    PayDaJuice
    Rookie
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    Joined: Jan, 2008
    Posts: 943
    Posted: Jan. 15, 2009 - 3:16 PM ET #1

    Z-Score

     

    A mathematical formula developed in the 1960s by NYU Professor Edward Altman that attempts to express the chances of a public company going bankrupt within a two- year time period. The number produced by the model is referred to as the company’s Z-score, which is a reasonably accurate predictor of future bankruptcy. The model is specified as:

     

    Z = 1.2A + 1.4B + 3.3C + 0.6D + 1.0E

     

    Where:

    Z = Score

    A = Working Capital / Total Assets

    B = Retained Earnings/ Total Assets

    C = Earnings before Interest & Tax/ Total Assets

    D = Market Value of Equity/ Total Liabilities

    E= Sales/ total Assets

     

    The zeta model returns a single number, the z-score, to represent the likelihood of a company going bankrupt in the next two years. The lower the z-score, the more likely a company is to go bankrupt. A z-score lower than 1.8 indicates that bankruptcy is likely, while scores greater than 3.0 indicate bankruptcy is unlikely to occur in the next two years. Companies that have a z-score between 1.8 and 3.0 in the gray area, bankruptcy is not easily predicted one way or the other.

     

    Reply
    To remove first post, remove entire topic.

    Z-Score

     

    A mathematical formula developed in the 1960s by NYU Professor Edward Altman that attempts to express the chances of a public company going bankrupt within a two- year time period. The number produced by the model is referred to as the company’s Z-score, which is a reasonably accurate predictor of future bankruptcy. The model is specified as:

     

    Z = 1.2A + 1.4B + 3.3C + 0.6D + 1.0E

     

    Where:

    Z = Score

    A = Working Capital / Total Assets

    B = Retained Earnings/ Total Assets

    C = Earnings before Interest & Tax/ Total Assets

    D = Market Value of Equity/ Total Liabilities

    E= Sales/ total Assets

     

    The zeta model returns a single number, the z-score, to represent the likelihood of a company going bankrupt in the next two years. The lower the z-score, the more likely a company is to go bankrupt. A z-score lower than 1.8 indicates that bankruptcy is likely, while scores greater than 3.0 indicate bankruptcy is unlikely to occur in the next two years. Companies that have a z-score between 1.8 and 3.0 in the gray area, bankruptcy is not easily predicted one way or the other.

     

     
    Vermeer
    Vermeer
    Veteran
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    Joined: Dec, 2006
    Posts: 2910
    Posted: Jan. 15, 2009 - 4:16 PM ET #2

    Thanks for the information. Of course this depends on whether you are not getting cooked books numbers!!

      Anyone familiar with a book The Crash and its Aftermath:a History of Securities Markets in the U.S. 1929-1933 by Barrie Wigmore.?

      If so please let me know what your opinion of it is.I would like to get a copy of it if it is worthwhile.

    Reply
    Thanks for the information. Of course this depends on whether you are not getting cooked books numbers!!

      Anyone familiar with a book The Crash and its Aftermath:a History of Securities Markets in the U.S. 1929-1933 by Barrie Wigmore.?

      If so please let me know what your opinion of it is.I would like to get a copy of it if it is worthwhile.

     
    PayDaJuice
    PayDaJuice
    Rookie
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    Joined: Jan, 2008
    Posts: 943
    Posted: Jan. 16, 2009 - 8:42 AM ET #3

    Vermeer,

     

    Audited financial statements

     

    FYI

     

    On December 2, 2001, Enron, a $700 billion company, filed for bankruptcy. The bankruptcy filing came after the company announced it had overstated earnings by approximately $600MM. Later, the on-site-accountant was charged with shredding work documents related to the audit. This example makes it clear that relying solely on audited statements will not prevent or protect a bank from lending to a company that may have significant problems. The audit itself, as in the Enron case, does not prevent misrepresentation to either company management or potential business bankers. This and other factors make the accountant’s job complicated. Although regulatory authorities attempt to keep financial reporting to investors at a high standard, financial statements need to be technically interpreted.

     

    Do you have a special financial analysis process?

    Reply

    Vermeer,

     

    Audited financial statements

     

    FYI

     

    On December 2, 2001, Enron, a $700 billion company, filed for bankruptcy. The bankruptcy filing came after the company announced it had overstated earnings by approximately $600MM. Later, the on-site-accountant was charged with shredding work documents related to the audit. This example makes it clear that relying solely on audited statements will not prevent or protect a bank from lending to a company that may have significant problems. The audit itself, as in the Enron case, does not prevent misrepresentation to either company management or potential business bankers. This and other factors make the accountant’s job complicated. Although regulatory authorities attempt to keep financial reporting to investors at a high standard, financial statements need to be technically interpreted.

     

    Do you have a special financial analysis process?

     
    Vermeer
    Vermeer
    Veteran
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2006
    Posts: 2910
    Posted: Jan. 16, 2009 - 11:14 AM ET #4


      No, not really.I look at the basics. I realized quite early in my professional life (my first job was in accounting) that anything can be fudged, and usually was, auditors or no auditors.

     I try to keep things extremely simple.I like the best companies in the industries I think will prosper in a given market.

      I think XOM is the best oil company in the world, period. It has been for my entire adult life...not a lot of calculation involved when I decided, were I to own an oil company, XOM would be the first purchase, and it was. No regrets.

     Madoff is just the latest example of the fact that anyone can produce pages of numbers. In my experience, they can mean something or absolutely nothing.I just trust my own evaluation of companies (usually) and the times when I haven't, I have been burned.

     

    Reply

      No, not really.I look at the basics. I realized quite early in my professional life (my first job was in accounting) that anything can be fudged, and usually was, auditors or no auditors.

     I try to keep things extremely simple.I like the best companies in the industries I think will prosper in a given market.

      I think XOM is the best oil company in the world, period. It has been for my entire adult life...not a lot of calculation involved when I decided, were I to own an oil company, XOM would be the first purchase, and it was. No regrets.

     Madoff is just the latest example of the fact that anyone can produce pages of numbers. In my experience, they can mean something or absolutely nothing.I just trust my own evaluation of companies (usually) and the times when I haven't, I have been burned.

     

     
    PayDaJuice
    PayDaJuice
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    Joined: Jan, 2008
    Posts: 943
    Posted: Jan. 16, 2009 - 11:59 AM ET #5

    Vermeer,

     

    I agree, there are certain market intangibles that we have no control over.

     

    What are the warning signs for a “scammer” like Madoff when the regulatory authorities fail?

     

    My financial analysis process is geared towards” lending”.

     

    The profitability and soundness of any bank depend on the quality of its loan portfolio. Funds are acquired (at a cost) via deposits and the “rented” to borrowers.  

     

    When conducting a financial analysis, I usually follow a four-step systematic approach:

     

    • Obtain financial information;
    • Process, spread and common-size financial statements;
    • Analyze and interpret information; and
    • Complete tend, comparative and continuity analyses.

     

    To evaluate credit risk, I attempt to identify the uncertainties a commercial borrower may face. I must confirm, for example, that a borrower’s financial strengths and weaknesses are balanced. If its strengths exceed its weaknesses by a margin sufficient to cover perceived uncertainties, the borrower represents an acceptable risk.

     

    Strengths – Weaknesses > Uncertainties = Acceptable Risk

     

    Exxon Mobil corp. (XOM) does not fall into my loan portfolio hahaha.  

     

    Most of my loans are <$250M.  

    Reply

    Vermeer,

     

    I agree, there are certain market intangibles that we have no control over.

     

    What are the warning signs for a “scammer” like Madoff when the regulatory authorities fail?

     

    My financial analysis process is geared towards” lending”.

     

    The profitability and soundness of any bank depend on the quality of its loan portfolio. Funds are acquired (at a cost) via deposits and the “rented” to borrowers.  

     

    When conducting a financial analysis, I usually follow a four-step systematic approach:

     

    • Obtain financial information;
    • Process, spread and common-size financial statements;
    • Analyze and interpret information; and
    • Complete tend, comparative and continuity analyses.

     

    To evaluate credit risk, I attempt to identify the uncertainties a commercial borrower may face. I must confirm, for example, that a borrower’s financial strengths and weaknesses are balanced. If its strengths exceed its weaknesses by a margin sufficient to cover perceived uncertainties, the borrower represents an acceptable risk.

     

    Strengths – Weaknesses > Uncertainties = Acceptable Risk

     

    Exxon Mobil corp. (XOM) does not fall into my loan portfolio hahaha.  

     

    Most of my loans are <$250M.  

     
    wallstreetcappers
    wallstreetcappers
    Covers Linesmen
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Feb, 2003
    Posts: 58464
    Posted: Jan. 16, 2009 - 12:06 PM ET #6

    The issue is that the time table for that Z-score could take years to unfold and it can change as business changes.

    I bet MOST of the financials would fare terribly but some will still make it with a bad score since they are getting assistance.
    Reply
    The issue is that the time table for that Z-score could take years to unfold and it can change as business changes.

    I bet MOST of the financials would fare terribly but some will still make it with a bad score since they are getting assistance.
     
     
    PayDaJuice
    PayDaJuice
    Rookie
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Jan, 2008
    Posts: 943
    Posted: Jan. 16, 2009 - 12:37 PM ET #7

    Most fall into the "gray"
    Reply
    Most fall into the "gray"
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