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    All Forums | Investments

    Hindenburg Omen...your thoughts?

    bill1947
    vrifma
    JEFFMARKETCAP
    2169
    LeRinkRat
    ...
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    bill1947
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    Posted: Aug. 15, 2010 - 11:17 PM ET #1

    copy and paste link:
    https://www.thestreet.com/story/10835851/1/hindenburg-omen-is-a-stock-market-crash-imminent.html
    Reply
    To remove first post, remove entire topic.
    copy and paste link:
    https://www.thestreet.com/story/10835851/1/hindenburg-omen-is-a-stock-market-crash-imminent.html
     
    vrifma
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    Posted: Aug. 16, 2010 - 10:41 AM ET #2

    market up on declining volume
    market overvalued overbought
    high unemployment
    weak real estate market
    debt
    poor fundamentals

    just sell baby
    Reply
    market up on declining volume
    market overvalued overbought
    high unemployment
    weak real estate market
    debt
    poor fundamentals

    just sell baby
     
    JEFFMARKETCAP
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    Posted: Aug. 16, 2010 - 8:12 PM ET #3

    Reply
     
    2169
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    Posted: Aug. 17, 2010 - 12:31 AM ET #4

    So....another crash eh??  Great!!
    Reply
    So....another crash eh??  Great!!
     
    LeRinkRat
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    Posted: Aug. 17, 2010 - 2:05 PM ET #5

    market up on declining volume
    market overvalued overbought
    high unemployment
    weak real estate market
    debt
    poor fundamentals
     
    = ALL good arguments. I can't figure WHY the gaming companies haven't CRASHED with their reported recent losses. in fact both WYNN and LVS are making new recovery HIGHS from their march 2009 lows. Macau and other far east operations are carrying them BUT all you need is for the ChiComs to pull some shit and THAT will come to a screaching halt.
    Reply
    market up on declining volume
    market overvalued overbought
    high unemployment
    weak real estate market
    debt
    poor fundamentals
     
    = ALL good arguments. I can't figure WHY the gaming companies haven't CRASHED with their reported recent losses. in fact both WYNN and LVS are making new recovery HIGHS from their march 2009 lows. Macau and other far east operations are carrying them BUT all you need is for the ChiComs to pull some shit and THAT will come to a screaching halt.
     
    LeRinkRat
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    Posted: Aug. 17, 2010 - 4:05 PM ET #6

    more from Paul Farrell quoting people like long term bond manager Bill Gross, economist Peter Morici and others.....

    "Warning: More bad news ahead. Welcome to a bleak second half 2010, worse for 2011"

    ref: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/its-going-to-get-worse-a-whole-lot-worse-2010-08-17

    Reply

    more from Paul Farrell quoting people like long term bond manager Bill Gross, economist Peter Morici and others.....

    "Warning: More bad news ahead. Welcome to a bleak second half 2010, worse for 2011"

    ref: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/its-going-to-get-worse-a-whole-lot-worse-2010-08-17

     
    2169
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    Posted: Aug. 17, 2010 - 7:25 PM ET #7

    I don't know.  Kinda hard for me to see another crash.
    Reply
    I don't know.  Kinda hard for me to see another crash.
     
    wallstreetcappers
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    Posted: Aug. 17, 2010 - 7:45 PM ET #8

    There are too many futures players for me to see a BIG crash, traders are buying these futures on any down day..it has been the same crap, down open and buy the futures on dips and the market closes usually near the high on the day.

    You have to spook the speculators and freeze the credit markets to have any crash..
    Reply
    There are too many futures players for me to see a BIG crash, traders are buying these futures on any down day..it has been the same crap, down open and buy the futures on dips and the market closes usually near the high on the day.

    You have to spook the speculators and freeze the credit markets to have any crash..
     
    claycourtlesson
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    Posted: Aug. 18, 2010 - 1:20 PM ET #9

    All a bunch of manipulated BS.  Where is the SP now, 1040ish?  With the hideous world fundamentals, I have an easier time valuing the SP at 0.00 than 1040.  No joke.
    Reply
    All a bunch of manipulated BS.  Where is the SP now, 1040ish?  With the hideous world fundamentals, I have an easier time valuing the SP at 0.00 than 1040.  No joke.
     
    claycourtlesson
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    Posted: Aug. 18, 2010 - 1:34 PM ET #10

    SP 500 close to 1100.  What a joke!  Look at the debt all over the world.  Unemployment close to 20%----in the USA!  Tenuous geopolitical situation, ie Israel, N Korea.  Environment in a shambles.  Most off the charts piss-poor leadership that even the most ardent pessimist couldn't imagine on his worst day of gloom and doom!!!!!!!

    Aside from the fact that the peanut gallery is totally negative on the future, is there any one other single reason that anyone in here can tell me why I should think "the market" is going to go sustainably higher?  Hahahahahahaha.  You can't!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    SP 500 is headed to zero point zero.  All retirement accounts and social security will be declared null and void. 

     

    Reply

    SP 500 close to 1100.  What a joke!  Look at the debt all over the world.  Unemployment close to 20%----in the USA!  Tenuous geopolitical situation, ie Israel, N Korea.  Environment in a shambles.  Most off the charts piss-poor leadership that even the most ardent pessimist couldn't imagine on his worst day of gloom and doom!!!!!!!

    Aside from the fact that the peanut gallery is totally negative on the future, is there any one other single reason that anyone in here can tell me why I should think "the market" is going to go sustainably higher?  Hahahahahahaha.  You can't!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    SP 500 is headed to zero point zero.  All retirement accounts and social security will be declared null and void. 

     

     
    wallstreetcappers
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    Posted: Aug. 18, 2010 - 1:40 PM ET #11

    CC,

    The tape keeps saying otherwise..they buy back the market almost every single day.

    With the way futures markets are manipulating the cash markets, this could go on and on and on..a little futures purchase moves the cash markets with arbitrage players are in the game and liquidity traders etc.



    Reply
    CC,

    The tape keeps saying otherwise..they buy back the market almost every single day.

    With the way futures markets are manipulating the cash markets, this could go on and on and on..a little futures purchase moves the cash markets with arbitrage players are in the game and liquidity traders etc.



     
    claycourtlesson
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    Posted: Aug. 18, 2010 - 1:41 PM ET #12

    Let's face it.  You know you are f---ed as a country (sorry, Tony Dungy) when you get your entertainment jollies from the Kim Kardashian Show, you listen to music by some dummy named 50 cent, and  the best invention you can come up with is twitter.

    No hope, except maybe a natural disaster of mammoth proportions.

    Better get on your knees and pray to nature.

    Reply

    Let's face it.  You know you are f---ed as a country (sorry, Tony Dungy) when you get your entertainment jollies from the Kim Kardashian Show, you listen to music by some dummy named 50 cent, and  the best invention you can come up with is twitter.

    No hope, except maybe a natural disaster of mammoth proportions.

    Better get on your knees and pray to nature.

     
    claycourtlesson
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    Posted: Aug. 18, 2010 - 1:43 PM ET #13

    WSC-

    Seriously, how long can this bear market rally continue?  You think this stuff lasts past this fall?  I can't see it, man.

    Reply

    WSC-

    Seriously, how long can this bear market rally continue?  You think this stuff lasts past this fall?  I can't see it, man.

     
    Vermeer
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    Posted: Aug. 18, 2010 - 4:21 PM ET #14

    Wall,

     What do you mean there are too many players?

    The percentage of trading done by HFTs is estimated to be way over 50% by most. 

     The retail investor is long gone. 

     The concentration of activity allows for what you (and many others) have noted: an obvious very very manipulated market.
    Reply
    Wall,

     What do you mean there are too many players?

    The percentage of trading done by HFTs is estimated to be way over 50% by most. 

     The retail investor is long gone. 

     The concentration of activity allows for what you (and many others) have noted: an obvious very very manipulated market.
     
    Vermeer
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    Posted: Aug. 18, 2010 - 4:27 PM ET #15

      PS

     I think the supremacy of computers and algos has almost completely eliminated fundamentals as a basis for price action.


    Reply
      PS

     I think the supremacy of computers and algos has almost completely eliminated fundamentals as a basis for price action.


     
    wallstreetcappers
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    Posted: Aug. 18, 2010 - 4:53 PM ET #16

    CC,
    You always crack me up and I enjoy your commentary. With the USG and the FED and banks having interests in the USM, I don't see how we hit the targets you suggest. Are we way over valued? I say we totally are but there are forces that will protect the market and when the HFT guys are banks and the cash is cheap, returns for earnings are VERY dependant on trading earnings I just cannot find who the net sellers will be. To have the market go down much there is either a need for an event to take the market by surprise or enough sellers to offset the buyers. Hedgies, banks, HFT's are long the market, so where are the sellers?
    Vermeer, I didn't sy that right. We are thinking the same thing here..market participants meaning the HFT guys, it is how banks and hedgies are making returns and to shake them all loose will be tough, I think the percentage of action from HFT's might even be higher than what you suggest.
    Lastly, I was thinking today about this theory that started the thread and I think it is false because of the way the lows are being made. The lows are being made on YEARLY charts, but those yearly charts reflect the HUGE move off the 2009 lows, so really the lows aren't THAT low. I would wager if you extended the time frame for this theory to a 24 month chart that none of it happens, to me based on the lows being off only 1 year charts I find little value off the theory now. In the past maybe the market was in a trading range and it might hold more importance and relevance?
    Reply
    CC,
    You always crack me up and I enjoy your commentary. With the USG and the FED and banks having interests in the USM, I don't see how we hit the targets you suggest. Are we way over valued? I say we totally are but there are forces that will protect the market and when the HFT guys are banks and the cash is cheap, returns for earnings are VERY dependant on trading earnings I just cannot find who the net sellers will be. To have the market go down much there is either a need for an event to take the market by surprise or enough sellers to offset the buyers. Hedgies, banks, HFT's are long the market, so where are the sellers?
    Vermeer, I didn't sy that right. We are thinking the same thing here..market participants meaning the HFT guys, it is how banks and hedgies are making returns and to shake them all loose will be tough, I think the percentage of action from HFT's might even be higher than what you suggest.
    Lastly, I was thinking today about this theory that started the thread and I think it is false because of the way the lows are being made. The lows are being made on YEARLY charts, but those yearly charts reflect the HUGE move off the 2009 lows, so really the lows aren't THAT low. I would wager if you extended the time frame for this theory to a 24 month chart that none of it happens, to me based on the lows being off only 1 year charts I find little value off the theory now. In the past maybe the market was in a trading range and it might hold more importance and relevance?
     
    wallstreetcappers
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    Posted: Aug. 18, 2010 - 4:54 PM ET #17

    Sorry for spacing, I typed that from my BB phone.
    Reply
    Sorry for spacing, I typed that from my BB phone.
     
    Vermeer
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    Posted: Aug. 18, 2010 - 7:31 PM ET #18

    Wall,

     I understated what % of trading is HFT originated, simply because I cant get reliable proof about it. I have read as much as 85% of volume!! Now if that is true, you have only a very very few players with those types of pipes. 

     I think I know one, an pure algo  hedgie, you might recall the info I sent you about his operation) but he is an absolute  tomb when it comes to real information on his operation.

      I think you and I do agree.

      As far as an above comment doubting another crash, I would suggest there has already been one, that lasted a few minutes, the so called flash crash.So far, no one has satisfactorily explained that episode. (I may have missed a convincing explanation, if anyone has one, put a link on).

      It is as plausible to believe that that was a simple trial run of a deliberate program as to believe it was a freak one off.

     I think that flash crash was the last straw for many many retail investors. When a guy like Druckenmiller has had enough, you gotta wonder why anyone outside of a select few frontrunners  would continue.


     
     

     
       

     
    Reply
    Wall,

     I understated what % of trading is HFT originated, simply because I cant get reliable proof about it. I have read as much as 85% of volume!! Now if that is true, you have only a very very few players with those types of pipes. 

     I think I know one, an pure algo  hedgie, you might recall the info I sent you about his operation) but he is an absolute  tomb when it comes to real information on his operation.

      I think you and I do agree.

      As far as an above comment doubting another crash, I would suggest there has already been one, that lasted a few minutes, the so called flash crash.So far, no one has satisfactorily explained that episode. (I may have missed a convincing explanation, if anyone has one, put a link on).

      It is as plausible to believe that that was a simple trial run of a deliberate program as to believe it was a freak one off.

     I think that flash crash was the last straw for many many retail investors. When a guy like Druckenmiller has had enough, you gotta wonder why anyone outside of a select few frontrunners  would continue.


     
     

     
       

     
     
    wallstreetcappers
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    Posted: Aug. 18, 2010 - 8:49 PM ET #19

    Vermeer,

    It is obvious to me that the markets are tossed around with futures and HFT traders..these 1-2% intra-day swings are just not how markets act, to drop and then move the exact opposite way with zero news on light volume..well that is what we have and it is what we will keep having.

    Banks and fundies are reliant on these futures trading profits, they work together between cash positions and futures, so you can go long the cash when the market is down, pump the futures up leveraged on the cheap, sell out when the arb guys buy the cash and make money in all directions.

    Look at today..down what 60 pts on the DOW early, seems that we often start down..then reverse it up 60 pts, then end up pretty much flat..one can go long, short, long and really have no net position.

    Who with any bankroll stands in the way of these manipulators?

    I know you love this, but these actions are signs of cheating, opaque and dishonest market manipulators..and it shows you that our economic model is not capitalistic, it is full of slimy, disgusting profiteers who hide, leverage and cheat to get a few extra cents and big bonuses.

    So who will step in that has more power than these lovely market participants?
    Reply
    Vermeer,

    It is obvious to me that the markets are tossed around with futures and HFT traders..these 1-2% intra-day swings are just not how markets act, to drop and then move the exact opposite way with zero news on light volume..well that is what we have and it is what we will keep having.

    Banks and fundies are reliant on these futures trading profits, they work together between cash positions and futures, so you can go long the cash when the market is down, pump the futures up leveraged on the cheap, sell out when the arb guys buy the cash and make money in all directions.

    Look at today..down what 60 pts on the DOW early, seems that we often start down..then reverse it up 60 pts, then end up pretty much flat..one can go long, short, long and really have no net position.

    Who with any bankroll stands in the way of these manipulators?

    I know you love this, but these actions are signs of cheating, opaque and dishonest market manipulators..and it shows you that our economic model is not capitalistic, it is full of slimy, disgusting profiteers who hide, leverage and cheat to get a few extra cents and big bonuses.

    So who will step in that has more power than these lovely market participants?
     
    Vermeer
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    Posts: 2910
    Posted: Aug. 18, 2010 - 11:17 PM ET #20

    I agree Wall. I would also point to the fact of the herd mentality one observes almost without exception every day. Either up and down, the market moves in a monolithic fashion. This is quite peculiar, and I do not buy the "shallow summer trading" explanation proffered by the boobs on CNBC.

     Despite conservative rhetoric (and I consider myself a fiscal but not social conservative) there are no "free markets" and there never have been.It is a nice intellectual construct, but our government and all others routinely interfere with the markets.(All you have to do is reel off things like crop supports, the (entire!!) mortgage market, steel import duties etc etc etc...) I do think as power has been concentrated in fewer hands, markets are more susceptible to manipulation now more than ever before. 

     As to your last question, I would suggest one possible answer: sovereign wealth funds and governments, primarily China, and to a lesser degree, Russia.

     China clearly wants to be the dominant world superpower.They play a strategic game, financially and geopolitically, while America plays a purely tactical game. America thinks in terms of quarters, China thinks in terms of quarters of a century.The Chinese are happy to abet the US implosion, and are not even that discreet about what they are doing.They have been wildly successful with an overtly mercantilist policy, and have created a regional area of influence and trade that could, (with some difficulty), replace the US for their exports.

     People tend to overlook Russia, but Putin detests the US, particularly the US attempt to expand NATO. The Russians are hardly our friends, and I am sure they are taking great delight in seeing us replicate their idiocy in Afghanistan.  

      This may seem disconnected to the US stock market and its manipulation by the Fed, and "banks" like Goldman, large fund like Pimco etc,  but it really is not. 

      
      
    Reply
    I agree Wall. I would also point to the fact of the herd mentality one observes almost without exception every day. Either up and down, the market moves in a monolithic fashion. This is quite peculiar, and I do not buy the "shallow summer trading" explanation proffered by the boobs on CNBC.

     Despite conservative rhetoric (and I consider myself a fiscal but not social conservative) there are no "free markets" and there never have been.It is a nice intellectual construct, but our government and all others routinely interfere with the markets.(All you have to do is reel off things like crop supports, the (entire!!) mortgage market, steel import duties etc etc etc...) I do think as power has been concentrated in fewer hands, markets are more susceptible to manipulation now more than ever before. 

     As to your last question, I would suggest one possible answer: sovereign wealth funds and governments, primarily China, and to a lesser degree, Russia.

     China clearly wants to be the dominant world superpower.They play a strategic game, financially and geopolitically, while America plays a purely tactical game. America thinks in terms of quarters, China thinks in terms of quarters of a century.The Chinese are happy to abet the US implosion, and are not even that discreet about what they are doing.They have been wildly successful with an overtly mercantilist policy, and have created a regional area of influence and trade that could, (with some difficulty), replace the US for their exports.

     People tend to overlook Russia, but Putin detests the US, particularly the US attempt to expand NATO. The Russians are hardly our friends, and I am sure they are taking great delight in seeing us replicate their idiocy in Afghanistan.  

      This may seem disconnected to the US stock market and its manipulation by the Fed, and "banks" like Goldman, large fund like Pimco etc,  but it really is not. 

      
      
     
    Vermeer
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    Posted: Aug. 19, 2010 - 6:51 AM ET #21

    Published: August 17 2010 14:34 | Last updated: August 17 2010 14:34

    China will allow foreign central banks and overseas lenders substantially to increase investment in its domestic interbank bond market, in a move aimed at encouraging internationalisation of the Chinese currency.

    The People’s Bank of China, the central bank, said on Tuesday that it had launched a pilot project to allow more foreign access to its largely closed domestic interbank bond market to “encourage cross-border renminbi trade settlement” and “broaden investment channels for renminbi to flow back [to China]”.

    EDITOR’S CHOICE

    Milestone issue for renminbi debt - Aug-06

    China revs up renminbi expansion - Jul-28

    US welcomes loosening of renminbi peg - Jul-09

    Lex: Renminbi internationalisation - Jul-28

    IMF staff and board split on renminbi - Jul-28

    Foreign central banks, lenders in Hong Kong and Macao that already conduct renminbi clearing and overseas banks involved in renminbi cross-border trade settlement will be allowed to participate in the Rmb19,500bn ($2,870bn) interbank bond market.

    Beijing is trying to encourage use of the renminbi for trade as part of a long-term plan to promote it as a reserve currency and reduce China’s exposure to the US dollar, now used for most Chinese trade.

    “This is an integral part of pushing the internationalisation of the renminbi,” said Wang Tao, chief China economist at UBS. “In order to encourage foreign institutions to get involved in renminbi settlement, you need to give them somewhere to invest.”

    Reply

    Published: August 17 2010 14:34 | Last updated: August 17 2010 14:34

    China will allow foreign central banks and overseas lenders substantially to increase investment in its domestic interbank bond market, in a move aimed at encouraging internationalisation of the Chinese currency.

    The People’s Bank of China, the central bank, said on Tuesday that it had launched a pilot project to allow more foreign access to its largely closed domestic interbank bond market to “encourage cross-border renminbi trade settlement” and “broaden investment channels for renminbi to flow back [to China]”.

    EDITOR’S CHOICE

    Milestone issue for renminbi debt - Aug-06

    China revs up renminbi expansion - Jul-28

    US welcomes loosening of renminbi peg - Jul-09

    Lex: Renminbi internationalisation - Jul-28

    IMF staff and board split on renminbi - Jul-28

    Foreign central banks, lenders in Hong Kong and Macao that already conduct renminbi clearing and overseas banks involved in renminbi cross-border trade settlement will be allowed to participate in the Rmb19,500bn ($2,870bn) interbank bond market.

    Beijing is trying to encourage use of the renminbi for trade as part of a long-term plan to promote it as a reserve currency and reduce China’s exposure to the US dollar, now used for most Chinese trade.

    “This is an integral part of pushing the internationalisation of the renminbi,” said Wang Tao, chief China economist at UBS. “In order to encourage foreign institutions to get involved in renminbi settlement, you need to give them somewhere to invest.”

     
    wallstreetcappers
    wallstreetcappers
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    Posts: 58464
    Posted: Aug. 19, 2010 - 11:24 AM ET #22

    Interesting theory there about China being the worlds reserve currency. I dont see how that can happen given their domestic political issues.

    Regarding "free markets" I think we differ in the WHY we have none, but we agree that they are a myth and a textbook theory and nothing more..the reason I think they are non-existant is due to the nature of mankind, that we are greedy, selfish people for the most part and will cut the throat of someone else to improve ourselves.

    The most crucial part of fair and open equalibrium is transparency of both the buyer and seller, that price is merely a meeting of two parties both on the same level playing field, with profit being modest and honest..we dont have that, we've never had that. I think the government is forced into the equation due to the cheating and selfish nature of market participants. The more we trust the markets to act in the best interest of the whole in general and not regulate, the more the market knives us in the back.

    The government is to the market as an infant is to the parent..the government isnt equipped or skilled to regulate to the level of the cheaters because the cheaters are trying to PROFIT which carries a high level of motivation versus regulators who are chasing tails and guessing.

    The government really has little responsibility or blame in my book, the government does not wield enough power to have responsibility, even with the tariffs they give to domestic production, that is again the MARKET cheating..the lobbyists pay politicians to protect their interests and ensure the politician gets elected..the root of the theft is yet again the markets.

    Until the government has more power and control than the markets, they really are of little blame to me.
    Reply
    Interesting theory there about China being the worlds reserve currency. I dont see how that can happen given their domestic political issues.

    Regarding "free markets" I think we differ in the WHY we have none, but we agree that they are a myth and a textbook theory and nothing more..the reason I think they are non-existant is due to the nature of mankind, that we are greedy, selfish people for the most part and will cut the throat of someone else to improve ourselves.

    The most crucial part of fair and open equalibrium is transparency of both the buyer and seller, that price is merely a meeting of two parties both on the same level playing field, with profit being modest and honest..we dont have that, we've never had that. I think the government is forced into the equation due to the cheating and selfish nature of market participants. The more we trust the markets to act in the best interest of the whole in general and not regulate, the more the market knives us in the back.

    The government is to the market as an infant is to the parent..the government isnt equipped or skilled to regulate to the level of the cheaters because the cheaters are trying to PROFIT which carries a high level of motivation versus regulators who are chasing tails and guessing.

    The government really has little responsibility or blame in my book, the government does not wield enough power to have responsibility, even with the tariffs they give to domestic production, that is again the MARKET cheating..the lobbyists pay politicians to protect their interests and ensure the politician gets elected..the root of the theft is yet again the markets.

    Until the government has more power and control than the markets, they really are of little blame to me.
     
     
    Vermeer
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    Joined: Dec, 2006
    Posts: 2910
    Posted: Aug. 19, 2010 - 12:49 PM ET #23

    Wall, 

     You really think the government is outgunned? Are you kidding?

     If, as you posit, the solution is to give government even more power (how about a simpler solution:have them actually enforce existing regulations? I know, I know they are too stupid to do so...or are, rather smartly looking forward to their next job at GS and know what to overlook.),  the end result will be more power to lobbyists, not less. 

     It is in the government's best interest to cheapen the currency.The Fed is an economic equivalent to the CIA...totally unaccountable to the public. It holds ultimate power, and as Lehman proved, it can pick and choose who it allows to succeed or fail.
    Reply
    Wall, 

     You really think the government is outgunned? Are you kidding?

     If, as you posit, the solution is to give government even more power (how about a simpler solution:have them actually enforce existing regulations? I know, I know they are too stupid to do so...or are, rather smartly looking forward to their next job at GS and know what to overlook.),  the end result will be more power to lobbyists, not less. 

     It is in the government's best interest to cheapen the currency.The Fed is an economic equivalent to the CIA...totally unaccountable to the public. It holds ultimate power, and as Lehman proved, it can pick and choose who it allows to succeed or fail.
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