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evolution vs creation debate

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Raiders22

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Posted: Oct. 9, 2016 - 3:04 AM ET #101

Quote Originally Posted by Ktrain:

To expand on this: why are people being punished for being born in the wrong parts of the world i.e. non Christian parts of the world?

If someone is born in Bangladesh, for example, they are destined to go to hell because Christianity may have never been introduced to them during their life?

If that's the case, then that's not a God I would want to serve anyways, even if he was proven to exist.

Quote Originally Posted by Ktrain:

To expand on this: why are people being punished for being born in the wrong parts of the world i.e. non Christian parts of the world?

If someone is born in Bangladesh, for example, they are destined to go to hell because Christianity may have never been introduced to them during their life?

If that's the case, then that's not a God I would want to serve anyways, even if he was proven to exist.

This is also addressed in some of the links I sent you. Obviously, this is not the case. As is pointed out many people have come from situations where they have never even heard of Christianity. And an all-knowing God would always judge on how you did with what you were presented with and not what you had no knowledge of. And of course, would know how you would have done if presented with more knowledge.

'For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, evenhis eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:'

Raiders22

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Posted: Oct. 9, 2016 - 3:13 AM ET #102

St. Thomas Aquinas is another good example to read. And these two links are good ones as well:

https://bible.org/seriespage/1-evidence-gods-existence

https://www.saintaquinas.com/belief_in_God.html

mainman11111

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Posted: Oct. 9, 2016 - 4:12 AM ET #103

christianity> really?

everyone and their mammas knows that hinduism and buddhism came before christianity, and that jesus lived /frequented/visited the silk road and was influenced by teachings of both.

JayDC

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Posted: Oct. 9, 2016 - 8:38 AM ET #104

I believe in both the Creation and the Evolution of man. Since I am a Christian, I strongly believe that there's a God who created every man in the world with the help of his children. Evolution on the other hand is everywhere. People evolve when it comes to knowledge and skills, so Creation and Evolution for me co-exist.

nature1970

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Posted: Nov. 1, 2016 - 6:54 PM ET #105

I believe the body is temporal but the soul eternal. I believe god created both . but I do differ with most religions as I believe all good people regardless of what ever religion go to a spiritual heaven.

I believe satan and jesus are deciding whether free choice will be offered in a future heaven earth scenario where it is satan's job o show that man given choice will become such an abomination that god will repent he ever made man again. Jesus will grant grace and paradise to whomever he chooses judging not the actions but the desires of humans.

but I believe god is above them and is both good and perceived evil as these are the interpretations of men using a tiny bit of the brain given them. I go on to state all animals that can sleep and dream have contiousnous and minds similar to our brains .

as for evolved or abandoned I am on the god of most high abandoned and marooned men to this planet to explore freedom of choice and its consequences.

Rostos

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Posted: Nov. 4, 2016 - 11:53 PM ET #106

Quote Originally Posted by Danelaw:

“Let's say that the consensus is that our species, being the higher primates, person Sapiens, has been on the planet for at least 100,000 years, maybe more. Francis Collins says maybe 100,000. Richard Dawkins thinks maybe a quarter-of-a-million. I'll take 100,000. In order to be a Christian, you have to believe that for 98,000 years, our species suffered and died, most of its children dying in childbirth, most other people having a life expectancy of about 25 years, dying of their teeth. Famine, struggle, bitterness, war, suffering, misery, all of that for 98,000 years.

Heaven watches this with complete indifference. And then 2000 years ago, thinks 'That's enough of that. It's time to intervene,' and the best way to do this would be by condemning someone to a human sacrifice somewhere in the less literate parts of the Middle East. Don't lets appeal to the Chinese, for example, where people can read and study evidence and have a civilization. Let's go to the desert and have another revelation there. This is nonsense. It can't be believed by a thinking person.

Why am I glad this is the case? To get to the point of the wrongness of Christianity, because I think the teachings of Christianity are immoral. The central one is the most immoral of all, and that is the one of vicarious redemption. You can throw your sins onto somebody else, vulgarly known as scapegoating. In fact, originating as scapegoating in the same area, the same desert. I can pay your debt if I love you. I can serve your term in prison if I love you very much. I can volunteer to do that. I can't take your sins away, because I can't abolish your responsibility, and I shouldn't offer to do so. Your responsibility has to stay with you. There's no vicarious redemption. There very probably, in fact, is no redemption at all. It's just a part of wish-thinking, and I don't think wish-thinking is good for people either.

It even manages to pollute the central question, the word I just employed, the most important word of all: the word love, by making love compulsory, by saying you MUST love. You must love your neighbour as yourself, something you can't actually do. You'll always fall short, so you can always be found guilty. By saying you must love someone who you also must fear. That's to say a supreme being, an eternal father, someone of whom you must be afraid, but you must love him, too. If you fail in this duty, you're again a wretched sinner. This is not mentally or morally or intellectually healthy.

And that brings me to the final objection - I'll condense it, Dr. Orlafsky - which is, this is a totalitarian system. If there was a God who could do these things and demand these things of us, and he was eternal and unchanging, we'd be living under a dictatorship from which there is no appeal, and one that can never change and one that knows our thoughts and can convict us of thought crime, and condemn us to eternal punishment for actions that we are condemned in advance to be taking. All this in the round, and I could say more, it's an excellent thing that we have absolutely no reason to believe any of it to be true.”
? Christopher Hitchens

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1w-K4DbJMk

In the absence of God, there is no such thing as moral right and moral wrong.

Morality in the absence of God is merely an expression of preferences/desires.

What Hitler did was not wrong.

What ISIS do is not wrong

What Al Qada do is not wrong

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1w-K4DbJMk

In the absence of God, there is no such thing as moral right and moral wrong.

Morality in the absence of God is merely an expression of preferences/desires.

What Hitler did was not wrong.

What ISIS do is not wrong

What Al Qada do is not wrong

Rostos

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Posted: Nov. 4, 2016 - 11:55 PM ET #107

Quote Originally Posted by Ktrain:

To expand on this: why are people being punished for being born in the wrong parts of the world i.e. non Christian parts of the world?

If someone is born in Bangladesh, for example, they are destined to go to hell because Christianity may have never been introduced to them during their life?

If that's the case, then that's not a God I would want to serve anyways, even if he was proven to exist.

This argument commits the text book genetic fallacy

Rostos

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Posted: Nov. 4, 2016 - 11:56 PM ET #108

Quote Originally Posted by mainman11111:

christianity> really?

everyone and their mammas knows that hinduism and buddhism came before christianity, and that jesus lived /frequented/visited the silk road and was influenced by teachings of both.

You got evidence of your claim of Jesus?

nature1970

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Posted: Nov. 5, 2016 - 1:20 AM ET #109

I can ... jesus name wasn't with a J sound.
No J in hebrew (isreali) language. Je Zeus is I Zeus or I am Saturn's son. Constance ceazar re'established central power of the Latin empire in constaniople now instanble tutkey, however Petros and Paul is not isreali words either. For a m ore reasonable understanding look
To the koran. To understand why a peasant carpet t=rs name is known beyond Julio us or Augustus ceazar wife or se atoms of Rome name. How could a man despised by tome and Hebrews with no known worth be celebrated beyond any king ever? How look to the koran

nature1970

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Posted: Nov. 6, 2016 - 5:05 PM ET #110

Clean it up, How does a peasants reputation become known.... a quarter of a million people died by crusificatiin within that decade in isreali some for her easy or murder rape theft it was the way executions were delivered. A hebrew man with a good job, family, and income was subjected to at least take a wife, if not be married to more than one after all 20ad in middle.east was a different time. Taking a maid servant cause a wife.was.barren was aloud as well for bearing abraham. Thus Mary Martha lazurus and maid to Mary and her son valintino. Ref new testimony those that raised from the dead. And off spring. Ref St valintino writings 120 ad Greek constinople other six church of seven. Johns duty to jesus rebuke of Peter garden of.gethsamin. ad 1.

nature1970

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Posted: Nov. 6, 2016 - 5:18 PM ET #111

You see a Jewish carpenter from a douanne of bethelhem. Became more well known than a gallia king or a celtic Lord or a viking ruler. No one would remember plate or herod for not a commoner ezus a nazirine. ... just saying raising the dead is a little noticing especially when the victim of reservation remembers where he was....

Ktrain

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Posts: 6580

Posted: Nov. 6, 2016 - 9:02 PM ET #112

Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

You got evidence of your claim of Jesus?

This is pretty much the question I always ask to believers about God.

SYSTEM

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Posts: 1702

Posted: Nov. 8, 2016 - 4:46 PM ET #113

Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

I am still interested to know how moral facts exist in a godless universe..

In the absence of God, morality is nothing more than a man made concept. It doesnt actually exist.

There is no such thing as moral rights and wrongs as FACTS.

I'm more moral than your god...

SYSTEM

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Posted: Nov. 8, 2016 - 4:46 PM ET #114

Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

What do you want me to prove? That God is eternal?

that there is a god...

SYSTEM

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Posts: 1702

Posted: Nov. 8, 2016 - 4:51 PM ET #115

Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

Exactly....i find it hilarious when atheists say there is no objective morality, yet they spend time talking about the evil in the world, evil committed by religious etc etc.

In the absence of God, there is no such as right/wrong/evil/good.

the same "god" that condones slavery, genocide, murder, rape...lmao

SYSTEM

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Posts: 1702

Posted: Nov. 8, 2016 - 4:53 PM ET #116

Quote Originally Posted by searchwarrant:

If you need "God" to confirm or deny your good and bad behavior than ya have some problems.

Christians have slaughtered more humans on earth than anything on the planet. God is murder and mayhem.

SYSTEM

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Posted: Nov. 8, 2016 - 4:57 PM ET #117

Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22:

Atheism is, I suppose, the supreme example of a simple faith. The man says there is no God; if he really says it in his heart, he is a certain sort of man so designated in Scripture [i. e. a fool, Ps 53:2]. But, anyhow, when he has said it, he has said it; and there seems to be no more to be said. The conversation seems likely to languish. The truth is that the atmosphere of excitement, by which the atheist lived, was an atmosphere of thrilled and shuddering theism, and not of atheism at all; it was an atmosphere of defiance and not of denial. Irreverence is a very servile parasite of reverence; and has starved with its starving lord. After this first fuss about the merely aesthetic effect of blasphemy, the whole thing vanishes into its own void. If there were not God, there would be no atheists.

thats not what atheists say...you don't understand what atheism is...

SYSTEM

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Posts: 1702

Posted: Nov. 8, 2016 - 4:59 PM ET #118

Quote Originally Posted by Balph:

Yes, I need God, and Jesus to confirm truth. Murder is wrong and that is the truth. How do I know murder is wrong? I know murder is wrong because God created us in his own image, with inate value and worth and a purpose in life. Moses came down with the Law that said, "thou shall not murder". Jesus fulfilled the Law by claiming to be the Truth, living a sinless life, dying on the cross, and then bodily rising from the dead. That is how I know murder is wrong.

You, on the other hand, believe we are all just cosmic dust, here by random chance

you need a book to tell you murder is wrong? pathetic...

SYSTEM

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Posted: Nov. 8, 2016 - 5:01 PM ET #119

Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

Science answers 1 form of enquiry while religion answers another form of enquiry.

To say science can and does answers questions of philosophy is to CONFUSE agency against mechanism.

religion doesn't answer anything, it makes up answers for things people don't understand...

SYSTEM

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Posted: Nov. 8, 2016 - 5:03 PM ET #120

Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

Do you have an argument for that or is that just another assertion with know argument or evidence to back that up?

you actually wrote this?

you're talking about evidence?

The funny thing is, you make moral claims and condemn morally all the time on this site. Why should anyone OUGHT to act a certain way if we will just like every other animal on this earth?

We see rape all the time in the animal kingdom, if we too are just like every other animal, why is it wrong for humans to rape?

When a group of ducks pack rape another duck, have they done anything wrong? If not, why is it wrong for humans to pack rape? Arent we just like every other animal?

When a bear eats its off spring in the wild, have they done anything wrong? if not, why is it wrong if a human eats its off spring?

If we are just like every other animal, then why do you claim humans OUGHT to act a certain way or have moral obligations imposed on them? Who imposes these obligations?

SYSTEM

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Posted: Nov. 8, 2016 - 5:06 PM ET #121

Quote Originally Posted by Ktrain:

This is pretty much the question I always ask to believers about God.

and they have none...

Rostos

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Posted: Nov. 8, 2016 - 10:04 PM ET #122

Quote Originally Posted by Ktrain:

This is pretty much the question I always ask to believers about God.

He made a claim, i want to see his evidence/sources for his claim.

Rostos

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Posted: Nov. 8, 2016 - 10:08 PM ET #123

Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:

the same "god" that condones slavery, genocide, murder, rape...lmao

2 things

He doesnt condone INVOLUNTARY slavery, genocide, rape.

Also, if morality is subjective, then things like rape, murder and slavery are not wrong.

Rostos

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Posted: Nov. 8, 2016 - 10:11 PM ET #124

Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:

I'm more moral than your god...

If morality is subjective, then how can you be moral than someone else?

Ktrain

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Posted: Nov. 8, 2016 - 11:54 PM ET #125

Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

He made a claim, i want to see his evidence/sources for his claim.

I'm referring to people that believe in a God though. The default position is to believe in nothing. Making a claim that there is a God requires evidence.

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