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evolution vs creation debate

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Posted: #151
Quote Originally Posted by Getty3:


I have no evidence that you exist, and even if you do, I can justifiably deny your existence when you no longer exist. A tombstone in a cemetary? Ashes forever lost at sea? It's an easy game to play. Do it as you see fit.
it would be very easy for you to get evidence that I exist...are you serious with this? 
 
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Posted: #152
Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22:

I'll make it easy for you, not believing in any gods...due to lack of evidence...
No. This is too vague an argument. There is way more to it philosophically, logically, an even scientifically. There are many deep thinkers on both sides (not Christians) with great points. This is simply not one of them. If you are interested in reading both sides, in order to discuss it and appreciate the discussion, there are many great articles on it.

no, it's not an argument, it's just the basic definition of what an atheist is...
 
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Posted: #153
Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22:

apologetics press? lmao
Correct. They do an excellent job of discussing the point that you brought up. What source would you use to refute how they explain away your point?

they don't explain away my point, and they leave out all of the other places where rape is condoned...like I said, but you ignored, all your god had to do was say no rape...
 
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Posted: #154
Quote Originally Posted by Balph:

Very weak argument.  So, society determines morality?  Are all societies equally moral?  If a society condones murder, rape, slavery, and genocide, then it is now moral?  Again, what is your basis for determining morality?  Without God, you have no basis.

whats funny is that until you give some evidence of a god, man IS the one who if you follow your bible determines your morality, since man is the one who wrote the bible  a society could not condone murder, rape, slavery, and genocide and still survive and thrive...it's really not that complicated... so no, not weak at all...

how you say you get your morality from a god that condones murder, rape, slavery, and genocide is beyond me, unless of course you think those things are moral...
 
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Posted: #155
Quote Originally Posted by Ktrain:


Because it does harm to our fellow (wo)man. Because when we're not stealing, raping, and murdering each other we're able to progress further as a society. 

And why is harming wrong? According to what/who? Why should society progress further? According to what/who?
As an atheist, your problem is that you ground morality outside human opinion/preference/desire.

Instead of just attributing the result of everything to a God, people actually try and figure out how the world works and why things happen. Is it any wonder that the most developed and progressive parts of the world are the least religious? 

Now you seem to be confusing agency against mechanism.

I honestly think you guys want the Western world to become a Christian version of Saudi Arabia. 

???
 
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Posted: #156
Under atheism, thats all human beings are, animals. Animals with more complex nervous systems, but still just animals.

Now tell me, we see not only rape in the animal kingdom, but pack rape. Tell me, when you see a wild life documentary and you see a pack of drakes (ducks) physically impose themselves on a hen (female duck) and all take turns forcibly copulating on her (rape), do you conclude that what they are doing is wrong? Of course not. It just is. This is merely ducks trying to pass on there genetic information down the chain.

So, if we are ALSO just animals, then tell me, why would it be wrong if me and my friends pack raped a woman just so we can can pass on down our genetic information?

Where does this obligation come from that we ought not rape? Who imposes this on us? There is no such obligation on animals, and if humans are just animals, where did this "magic rule" come from that we ought not rape?

We also see violent rape by bed bugs. Is that wrong when they violently rape?

We see apes kill each other for land. Do we deem there actions as wrong? of course not. If its not wrong for them, then why is it wrong for me to kill any of you to claim your land? Where did this obligation or duty come from that i ought not kill that doesnt exist in the animal kingdom?
 
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Posted: #157
Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:


Rostos,

A society can dictate that harming each other is wrong and detrimental to that society. Any society that condones stealing, rape, murder, etc won't be around very long. 
 
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Posted: #158
Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

Under atheism, thats all human beings are, animals. Animals with more complex nervous systems, but still just animals.

Now tell me, we see not only rape in the animal kingdom, but pack rape. Tell me, when you see a wild life documentary and you see a pack of drakes (ducks) physically impose themselves on a hen (female duck) and all take turns forcibly copulating on her (rape), do you conclude that what they are doing is wrong? Of course not. It just is. This is merely ducks trying to pass on there genetic information down the chain.

So, if we are ALSO just animals, then tell me, why would it be wrong if me and my friends pack raped a woman just so we can can pass on down our genetic information?

Where does this obligation come from that we ought not rape? Who imposes this on us? There is no such obligation on animals, and if humans are just animals, where did this "magic rule" come from that we ought not rape?

We also see violent rape by bed bugs. Is that wrong when they violently rape?

We see apes kill each other for land. Do we deem there actions as wrong? of course not. If its not wrong for them, then why is it wrong for me to kill any of you to claim your land? Where did this obligation or duty come from that i ought not kill that doesnt exist in the animal kingdom?

Couple of questions: 

How do you classify humans if you don't classify them as animals?

How do you know the hen is being raped and isn't just a fan of gang bangs? Are you able to communicate with hens? 

Haven't religious groups, acting on a supposed word of God, attacked, killed and stolen land from other groups, like your apes example? Why did God not stop them or impart wisdom not to do that? Is he not all powerful? 
 
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Posted: #159
Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

Under atheism, thats all human beings are, animals. Animals with more complex nervous systems, but still just animals.

Now tell me, we see not only rape in the animal kingdom, but pack rape. Tell me, when you see a wild life documentary and you see a pack of drakes (ducks) physically impose themselves on a hen (female duck) and all take turns forcibly copulating on her (rape), do you conclude that what they are doing is wrong? Of course not. It just is. This is merely ducks trying to pass on there genetic information down the chain.

So, if we are ALSO just animals, then tell me, why would it be wrong if me and my friends pack raped a woman just so we can can pass on down our genetic information?

Where does this obligation come from that we ought not rape? Who imposes this on us? There is no such obligation on animals, and if humans are just animals, where did this "magic rule" come from that we ought not rape?

We also see violent rape by bed bugs. Is that wrong when they violently rape?

We see apes kill each other for land. Do we deem there actions as wrong? of course not. If its not wrong for them, then why is it wrong for me to kill any of you to claim your land? Where did this obligation or duty come from that i ought not kill that doesnt exist in the animal kingdom?

 I'm actually going to declare 100% accuracy on Mr Rostos post here about violence in the animal kingdom. Good cite.

Those cute sensitive extremely intelligent dolphins we all know and love? They are factually engaged in kidnapping. murder and rape everyday. They will beach members of their own pod if they do not follow order. Lions, primates, elephants, hyennas, rats, orcas....you name them, they do it. 
Where does that put us on the chart? How does god apply?
I will go to church if you can answer and I'll bet you can. 

 
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Posted: #160
Quote Originally Posted by Balph:

Why should I care I care if harm comes to our fellow (wo)man.  If we are all here for a short period of time and we are all just space- dust, no more significant than an insect, all here by random chance, then who cares?  It would be no more wrong to kill somebody as it would be for a lion to eat his own cub, if there was no God.  

And by your logic abortion is wrong.

I'm pro choice if a woman is raped or if having the baby would induce a life threatening medical condition. Other than that, I'm not a fan of abortion. 

If there is a God, I would like to think he would do something to prevent rapes, murders, etc. Since he's all powerful and all knowing right? 

If you believe in a God and Heaven, why aren't you expediting your exit from this world? Do you wear a seat belt? Do you look both ways before crossing the road? If so, then why? Wouldn't it be in your best interest to hurry this life up and get to Heaven? 
 
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Posted: #161
K train. I have never understood gop on that issue. 100% pro choice. 
Wild guess but doubt I'm alone as a repub.
 
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Posted: #162
Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


whats funny is that until you give some evidence of a god, man IS the one who if you follow your bible determines your morality, since man is the one who wrote the bible  

The KJV Bible is supernaturally inspired by God.

a society could not condone murder, rape, slavery, and genocide and still survive and thrive...it's really not that complicated... so no, not weak at all...

Weak Weak Weak.  The subject is morality, not the survivability of a society.  

how you say you get your morality from a god that condones murder, rape, slavery, and genocide is beyond me, unless of course you think those things are moral...

Your understanding of God and God's word is abysmal.  God does not condone these things.  In your godless worldview, someone who thinks murder, rape, slavery, and genocide is moral would be just as right as you are.  There is no right and wrong, only opinions of right and wrong.
 
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Posted: #163
Quote Originally Posted by searchwarrant:

K train. I have never understood gop on that issue. 100% pro choice. 
Wild guess but doubt I'm alone as a repub.

My view on the topic has definitely changed over the years. I used to be ok with any and all abortions. Thankfully I've never been in a position to have any input on whether someone should abort a child. I do think people should be held accountable for their actions. However, I'm not in favor of outlawing abortions for a few reasons. Namely, it would drive abortions underground and make them even more dangerous. No way would it completely do away with abortions. People would just seek alternative means. It's similar to the drug epidemic. Also, women shouldn't be held accountable for being raped. Nothing like having a daily reminder of the most awful thing that will happen to them. 

Just my two cents. 

 
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Posted: #164
Balph, 

In response to your final statement in post 162. In the story of Noah, didn't God flood the world because he was displeased? Serious question, I am by no means a biblical expert. Wouldn't that be considered genocide? 
 
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Posted: #165
Quote Originally Posted by Ktrain:


Rostos,

A society can dictate that harming each other is wrong and detrimental to that society. Any society that condones stealing, rape, murder, etc won't be around very long. 

Which society? Also, why is it wrong if a society wont be around for very long? 
Arent these merely subjective personal preferences/desires?
 
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Posted: #166
Quote Originally Posted by Ktrain:


I'm pro choice if a woman is raped or if having the baby would induce a life threatening medical condition. Other than that, I'm not a fan of abortion. 

That's great.  What is your opinion based on?  Why is your opinion superior to someone who wants to eat babies for breakfast?

If there is a God, I would like to think he would do something to prevent rapes, murders, etc. Since he's all powerful and all knowing right? 

And take away your free will?  He will do something to prevent murder, rape, etc.  Revelation 21
King James Bible

A New Heaven and a New Earth

1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Get your name written in the Lamb's book of life!
 
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Posted: #167
Quote Originally Posted by Ktrain:


Couple of questions: 

How do you classify humans if you don't classify them as animals?

Under my world view, humans are created in the image of God. That is, they have intrinsic value.

How do you know the hen is being raped and isn't just a fan of gang bangs? Are you able to communicate with hens? 

It doesnt matter wether the hen enjoys it or not. The reality is, not just in ducks, but sharks, bed bugs to name just a few forcibly copulate themselves over females with a view to pass on their genetic information. What difference does it make if they enjoy it or not? Is there an obligation or a duty to ensure the recipient must enjoy it? Where did this obligation or duty come from under naturalism?

Haven't religious groups, acting on a supposed word of God, attacked, killed and stolen land from other groups, like your apes example? Why did God not stop them or impart wisdom not to do that? Is he not all powerful? 

Where does Jesus instruct his followers to kill? Steal? etc?
 
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Posted: #168
Quote Originally Posted by searchwarrant:


 I'm actually going to declare 100% accuracy on Mr Rostos post here about violence in the animal kingdom. Good cite.

Those cute sensitive extremely intelligent dolphins we all know and love? They are factually engaged in kidnapping. murder and rape everyday. They will beach members of their own pod if they do not follow order. Lions, primates, elephants, hyennas, rats, orcas....you name them, they do it. 
Where does that put us on the chart? How does god apply?
I will go to church if you can answer and I'll bet you can. 


Good observation with the dolphins. The question then is, under atheism, we are no different to any other animal. We may have more complex nervous systems, but ultimately, we are all just all blobs of carbon under atheism.
Where did this obligation and duty come from for humans in a godless that we ought not rape? Cause harm to each other?
One might say so the human species can flourish...What? Why should the human species flourish? Where did this obligation come from that the human species ought to flourish? 
The universe is indifferent wether humans got blown up tomorrow or lived for another billion years. It doesnt care.

 
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Posted: #169
Quote Originally Posted by Ktrain:


I'm pro choice if a woman is raped or if having the baby would induce a life threatening medical condition. Other than that, I'm not a fan of abortion. 

If there is a God, I would like to think he would do something to prevent rapes, murders, etc. Since he's all powerful and all knowing right? 

If you believe in a God and Heaven, why aren't you expediting your exit from this world? Do you wear a seat belt? Do you look both ways before crossing the road? If so, then why? Wouldn't it be in your best interest to hurry this life up and get to Heaven? 

I am not trying to be nasty here, but your answer is typical with a lotof atheists and it shows the caricature many atheists have of God.
The issue is one of free will. Your argument resembles something that if God did exist to you, he would be some sort of super hero rescuing people in there daily lives like a Batman or a Superman.

God gave us all free will and the bi product of that free will is that people use it for evil.

Why doesnt God intervene? Consider this.

Under Christianity, God considers ANY form of sex OUTSIDE of marriage to be a sin. That is, God frowns upon all sex outside marriage.

Now, what logic is it where an atheist asks where was God when a child was about to be raped? However, look at it from Gods perspective, remember he frowns upon ANY sex outside marriage, including homosexuality, consenting adult male/female etc etc. So why do you want God to intervene in 1 case and not the other?

Essentially you are dictating to God what he should and shouldnt do. You then might say, well consenting sex between 2 adults isnt causing any problems. Well according to God is does, the point is God frowns upon it.

Essentially we all tell God to butt out when we dont want him or going to do something against his will but ask him to intervene when something bad is going to happen.

This has essentially created an image of God where he is a "genie" type character. Remember that show, i dream of genie?
 
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Posted: #170
Quote Originally Posted by Balph:


supernaturally inspired by "god"?, please demonstrate how you know that. as far as I know, there is no way to test the "supernatural"...otherwise you're just making garbage up...

and your understanding of "god and gods words" is superior? lmao, please explain...oh wait, let me guess, you're one of those "true christians" 
 
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Posted: #171
Quote Originally Posted by Ktrain:

Balph, 

In response to your final statement in post 162. In the story of Noah, didn't God flood the world because he was displeased? Serious question, I am by no means a biblical expert. Wouldn't that be considered genocide? 

I am not a biblical expert either Ktrain.  You have a point about genocide.  I think the story of Noah explains why God did what he did.  He regretted making man because of all the evil he saw.  
 
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Posted: #172
Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:


I am not trying to be nasty here, but your answer is typical with a lotof atheists and it shows the caricature many atheists have of God.
The issue is one of free will. Your argument resembles something that if God did exist to you, he would be some sort of super hero rescuing people in there daily lives like a Batman or a Superman.

God gave us all free will and the bi product of that free will is that people use it for evil.

Why doesnt God intervene? Consider this.

Under Christianity, God considers ANY form of sex OUTSIDE of marriage to be a sin. That is, God frowns upon all sex outside marriage.

Now, what logic is it where an atheist asks where was God when a child was about to be raped? However, look at it from Gods perspective, remember he frowns upon ANY sex outside marriage, including homosexuality, consenting adult male/female etc etc. So why do you want God to intervene in 1 case and not the other?

Essentially you are dictating to God what he should and shouldnt do. You then might say, well consenting sex between 2 adults isnt causing any problems. Well according to God is does, the point is God frowns upon it.

Essentially we all tell God to butt out when we dont want him or going to do something against his will but ask him to intervene when something bad is going to happen.

This has essentially created an image of God where he is a "genie" type character. Remember that show, i dream of genie?

free will? then why do people pray? if your god has a plan, then prayer would be useless, and if god has a plan and knows everything that will happen, then there is no free will  

god doesn't intervene? you have to be kidding, right? better read the bible again...

by the way, you need evidence of god before you tell us what it all means and how it all works...but we know that will never happen...

you talking about logic is too funny, because the whole god idea is illogical...


 
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Posted: #173
Quote Originally Posted by Balph:


I am not a biblical expert either Ktrain.  You have a point about genocide.  I think the story of Noah explains why God did what he did.  He regretted making man because of all the evil he saw.  
But wait, I thought you were the authority...you just got done telling me how my "understanding of god and gods word was abysmal" 
 
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Posted: #174
Quote Originally Posted by Balph:


I am not a biblical expert either Ktrain.  You have a point about genocide.  I think the story of Noah explains why God did what he did.  He regretted making man because of all the evil he saw.  

wait, you "think the story of Noah explains why god did what he did?" please tell me more about the bible, since you know so much 
 
 
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Posted: #175
Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:

But wait, I thought you were the authority...you just got done telling me how my "understanding of god and gods word was abysmal" 

You think Mark Twain is racist because there is slavery in Tom Sawyer.
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