what is the purpose/function/utility of "health" "insurance"?

It doesn't seem that the private model of pooling risk, is either effective or affordable, so why are we going to force everyone to submit?

What i don't understand, is how anyone makes the argument that the good old altruistic private health insurance corporations, who don't serve us individuals all that well in the current system, will better our health, if only we could get everyone that doesn't currently buy their product, to buy their product. How does that make it more affordable for anyone? I mean, we had similar discussions early in BO presidency, but now all the sources agree that after a look at the bill and doing some math, that costs will increase much more then originally advertised, so i doubt anyone would argue that this reigns in costs,,,,

imagine being yourself, wanting to practice your profession, and not having one. how would you think of them then?

BE,

As an owner of my own business I have the freedom to structure my business plan and model in a way that works best for myself and my patients... I am psychotherapist with a variety of specialties and expertise that are hard to find... this creates the demand and willingness to pay out of pocket... also for many I offer a higher level of confidentiality because there is no need to have an insurance paperwork trail...

Mental health/addiction services are basically the same... call your insurance up and say you need mental health services and the process is essentially the same as calling them up for medical or dental...

While I do agree with you holistic view of health, for some people the only way for them to get their act together with physical health is to get it together upstairs...

Concerning how things work in my personal business...  I have a website that lists a standard price for services, but I also mention that I am willing to work with people based on income and financial situation...  Other therapists are more fixed and therefore can be shopped around...

My model is that I offer a short consultation appointment for free to allow me to screen if I would even want to sit in a room with the person and if I can even help them for they are coming for...  It is usually after we both agree that it might be a good fit that I start to talk about price...   I structure my paper work to be flexible as I will often cut deals with people like giving them the first 4 sessions at a certain rate then see where it goes...  Certain people and their families will get automatic discounts based on a history of a mutually beneficial relationship, certain patients will be able to pay at the end of the month in a lump sum while others will have to pay at the beginning of the session or it doesnt happen...  It all varies, but as the business owner I have the right to run my own business in what ever way I see fit...

I often give automatic discounts to gamblers because it is a longer term therapy course and I know they arent seeing unless they are broke... I give a reasonable discount to people that are unemployed provided that going back to work is an active part of the treatment and with the agreement that their rate will increase once they are working... because helping someone get their life together to get off of unemployment/welfare is a rewarding thing for me personally...

So alot of how I run my business is also based on my values...

not sure what you mean,,,,

Allow me to make my own counter argument, because somehow, no one ever brings this up, rather, all the left leaners swarm to the uber failed auto insurance analogy.

Here goes

Emergency Care CANNOT operate like a free market, at least not in our present understanding of what it is and how we know it to work.  The opaqueness behind pricing aside,,,,When you become a consumer of Emergency room care, you can't really act as an informed consumer, with access to all information. If you trip over a root on a tree in a public park, and slip and fall and smash your head open, and you need to be helicoptered out of there unconscious, and you awake while landing at the nearest hospital/emergency care facility, and pull out your iphone and check their pricing and ammenities, and compare it against all the other emergency care facilities that you'd like to chose from, but you just don't have the means, or opportunity. Now, the invisible hand, is forcing you to be a consumer at this facility.

I would like to be wrong, and to hear how the free market can save you there, but i can't figure it out.

However, all health care is not created equal. MUCH of the costs, come from things that we as individuals have total control over. We can operate as informed consumers, and we ought be able to pay in our fair share for what we are taking out

That's kind of how things used to operate in this country, no? I mean, we had health care, before we had health insurance, and people were a lot healthier,,,,,,,

Get this... in most states the license in my profession is for the purpose of being able to work with insurance... so the licensing board which is paid for by tax dollars is where I also pay my fee to the board for the letters behind my name and a number/code bill insurance...

I dont work directly with insurance, but instead give people receipts or documentation to get reimbursed from their insurance...  So that is the appeal along with the fact that it is illegal in my state to call yourself a psychotherapist or use the words depression/anxiety in your marketing because those are diagnoses that only a qualified/licensed person can do...

As you may be able to guess the whole scam starts in school where programs offer degrees with huge price tags per a credit because it is "post graduate level"... and then people take out loans from the government who siphon money to the universities...

Then once you get out you need to work at least 2-3 years full time before you can get your license... so most people work for agencies that take government contracts/insurance that I would never touch in my business but they can do it because they pay the therapists peanuts knowing they need to get experience for a license... so federal money goes to the state who takes their cut, which goes to the county which takes their cut which then after everyone has lined their pockets in the government goes to agencies that the lowest bidder which they the president/ceo/ directors/managers take their cut and therapists with post graduate degrees are making like $15/hour and cant get a raise due to the agency hanging by a string and being nonprofit...

The whole thing is a scam and licensure is just a piece of it

Here are margins on a few insurance providers-

please don't take this the wrong way, but i find that weird considering your broad dislike for the big corps these days, you don't see much fault in these HMO's

Do you think it's fair to say, that their stated profit margin is relative to the quality of the product that they are selling? If we are measuring them by their profits. Wouldn't it be fair to say that they are in fact, making a killing?

You make some good points.  It's the best alternative to what would be the best system, which is single payer for everyone.  Businesses would boom not having to worry about health care anymore. 

What was Clintons model for universal care back in the 90's?

what about as hilary care last election cycle?

Here's the thing, if you follow my line of questioning of why these health insurance companies exist in the first place. If they didn't exist, if we the people govt cut out those middle men, the savings wouldn't be merely that 5% profit, but every cost associated with their existence, no?

because if the purpose of the law is to force everyone to purchase their product, then it's no longer "insurance". Your claim is that people require it to exist in our society. The reality is, people need access to the actual health care provider, the unneccessary cost is the health insurance company itself. And the 30 or 50 million or so people not on their roles, that will be forced on by bamacare, will do nothing but pad their pockets. Or do some of us still believe that this will somehow reign in health care costs?

be,

I am also not against the concept of universal healthcare but there are certain inflationary aspects of the system which probably would not be contained so it would never work. Drug costs are the killer, that and litigation..those issues are really hurting the system.


can you elaborate? what you mean by those aspects, and why the private sector health insurance companies protect us from those costs?

The drug companies are able to raise and set prices as they want and that is very inflationary, the demand curve for most specialized drugs is not properly sloped, so since the government allows it, the massive cost for specialized drugs is very inflationary.

First off you can eat all the perfect foods you want and still get sick with problems when you age. For anybody to sit here and think they are fuckin superman and will never be sick, thus no reason to have insurance is insane.
Unless you are very wealthy, i doubt you will have enough saved for one major operation. Whats the going rate for a bypass surgery now a days?  Gotta easily be over 100k, I mean the list can go on and on of sicknesses or diseases that could bankrupt a person..
I was in perfect health in my 20's and 30's, i also thought i was superman and would never have any illnesses, well as you get older trust me those things you never thought you would get, you get. Theres just so many things with your health that can happen as you get older, nobody can sit here and say when they get to their 60's and 70's they will be in as perfect health then as they were in their 20's is pure living in a dream world.

To the youngsters who think they are invincible come back when you hit your 50's and tell us how great your health is.

To Beeasy and KOAJ, why are you guys paying for health insurance right now, theres no law saying you have to buy it, yet? Why have you guys been wasting your money on it?  Roll the dice,
Hospitals dont have to give you a heart surgery if you dont have insurance or cant pay for it. If you cant pay for it, looks like you would then have to go on a govt program like medicare, which you guys dislike.

Insurance is all about pooling sick people with healthy people. Basically the healthy peoples payments are helping to cover the sick people who have more things wrong with them. Dont the road, the healthy people will be the sick people and the new young ones will be paying for them. Its a never ending cycle.

Maybe if medical was real cheap and you could bring the doctor a few bushels of apples for him treating you, then yeah just save your insurance payments.  If only today was like 200 years agoMaybe the medicine man can come by and we can all smokem peace pipe to stay healthy

First off you can eat all the perfect foods you want and still get sick with problems when you age.

do you have evidence of this?

You're kidding right?

not at all

Insurance is a good thing people pooling their money to cover against the risk of a contingent, uncertain loss......... a form of risk management ...

Just ask Bowlslit ........

do you have evidence, of people that are completely healthy, and still get sick? Why do people get sick, in the first place?

what does the diet/lifestyle, of someone that is completely healthy, look like?

6-11 servings of breads/grains/pasta per day
3-5 servings of veggies
2-4 servings of fruits
2-3 servings of milk/cheese/dairy
2-3 servings of meat/fish/poultry/nuts/eggs
avoid fats and oils at all costs

6 hours of television
6 hours of sleep

That's the Western diet in a nutshell. That's what the government tells you you ought to be doing, to remain healthy

Is that what you guys meant, by a person of perfect health? (because then i can understand, why you are confused )

please come back and make a post when you get older and tell us about your health then.
People didnt eat all that shit you mention hundreds of years ago and they still got sick and died.
You are under the impression that you are going to somehow live to 150, because you think your eating the perfect diet.
First off you are eating what you read in books, internet etc etc, which are just other peoples opinions, which down the road can turn out to be wrong.
What kills me is how you think what you are eating is the solution to the worlds health problems. Its like Beeasy is right and the world is wrong.  Your not gonna know until down the road if the things you are eating now turn out to be bad for, thats one of the problems.
I do believe the guy that came up with the dont eat carbs and just meat diet, died of a heart attack.  Pretty tough to predict what ones health will be later on in life. You can do everything right and still endup sick.

Like i said until i hit my 40's i was in perfect health, never having to go the doctors but maybe once a year, just for a checkup and to be able to have a doctor on standby. 

Beeasy, i hope when you turn 60 your in as good as health as you are now, but being a betting man that iam and seeing tons of people get sick as they age, i would bet you wont be as healthy. I hope am still around then to see if you are still healthy


also people in great health get cancer and die.  Look at steve jobs, the guy was pretty much a health nut and am sure he had the smartest people around telling him what kinds of foods to eat and he still got cancer and died. Cant predict this shit Be.
Also there is no true way to know what damage the pot use is doing to your particular body until years down the road. 
Its all a mystery
 

be,

your post here is no more or less factual then mine


cd329 posted : First off you can eat all the perfect foods you want and still get sick with problems when you age.

to which is asked : Do you have any evidence of this?

to which djbrow said :  You're kidding, right?

to which is responded : not at all


Nutrition is an emotionally charged subject, and rightfully so, when the American populace has been misled for so long, by all the people that went to the most prestigious universities and spent so much time being 'educated' on the matter. Those are the people that many on this forum, claim we ought to be subjugating responsibility to, and in the real world, people did just that. look at the results, people are sick and dying in general, and not to mention quite confused as to why

SO in order for us to have this conversation, rather then allowing it devolve into personal jabs, first, wouldn't we have to define HEALTH, SICK, and what compromises "eating perfect"?