All Time Pound-For-Pound

Leonard, Robinson, Duran, Archie Moore, Armstrong, Roy Jones Jr., Mayweather, Pacqiuao, Ali, Joe Louis, etc, etc...?

Most over rated has to be Oscar. I laugh when people rate him in greatest pound for pound ranks. He fought nobody tough until Ike and he won SD. Lost to Felix, twice Mosley, Hopkins, Mayweather and Pacqiuao. Now the Ike, Felix and Mosley fights were close, and he never dominated one. The Hopkins was a mis-match where he should have lost to Strum previously but the Hopkin's fight was contingent on him winning (lol). Mayweather he performed better than I expected but clearly lost, and Manny... well you know. Everytime he was given a major challenge he never took charge. He beat good fighters, but never a great fighter in his prime. As a promoter he did save boxing, and for that reason he should be in the Hall of Fame, not just (for sole) because of his boxing career.

If I had to pick a division and take a fighter, I'd go with Lennox Lewis at Heavyweight. Not as greatest pound-for-pound, but the division I think he would reign supreme. I feel they brought him along just right and if he didn't retire would be the man still to beat (in heavyweights to beat). Now, *Jack Johnson was a freak for his time, *Marciano a beast, *Ali was like lightning, *Louis made people fall like they were dead, *Foreman could knock a building over, Holmes won with a jobbing clinic, *Tyson put the fear in people like Liston while having superb speed and power in both hands, *Evander maybe the greatest over-achiever in any sport... on and on the list can go. If I had to take one heavyweight (and yes the fighters are much bigger today on average then years earlier so the modern fighters do have the advantage in most cases) I would take Lennox Lewis. His size, power and intelligence in ring made him much more superior that if all these fighters and maybe another 20 top all timers had to fight each other 3 times each, I believe Lewis would have the best record.

Roy Jones Jr. during his prime was so much better than anyone people kept asking why he didn't fight anyone good. He fought everyone, he was just that good. Sugar Ray Robinson would rival that spot, as would Duran & Leonard, etc. Unfortunately, the light heavyweight and cruiserweight divisions made the least amount of money, and the clincher was that 80% were nearly equal. That makes it a hard living. Evander vs Qawi was the last of the cruiserweights. Everyone went to heavyweight to make money.

Just some thoughts I have and wanted some feedback. I've been reading Covers for nearly a decade and it has some excellent handicappers, just as good as any forum out there. Thanks people, I'm sure we'll get a nice debate going. I'm not trying to harp on anyone's favorite fighters, just calling the decision as I see it, nothing personal. So... Let's get it on!

GREAT POST! I think Leonard was the most gifted and definitely top 5 all time in most people, and my number one. His major negative he had was the swelling and cuts he would get. Take his surgical repaired eye. Also, when he started he had problems with his hands and forearms and had to endure a lot of suffering. Unfortunately for Roy Jones Jr there was nobody to fight in his prime except James Toney and Hopkins, in which he did. He went to heavyweight and Ruiz was tailor made for him, basically a heavyweight without knockout power. He was faster, better boxer and even more muscular entering the fight. Any big heavyweight he fights or big puncher he most likely loses.
Nice article, especially noting the wars between Evander and Qawi. I believe Tyson if he stayed in form still reigns supreme, but that's a lot of "ifs" for an unstable guy. I was a Marciano, Tyson, Evander type fan. Yes Lennox had the size and skill, but these guys took chances and made every fight exciting that's why roughly 2 decades back tyson was getting that $25 million per fight deal, still unheard of today! Oscar brought the glory and cash to the smaller divisions who came to fight every time, unlike heavyweights who get lazy. To me Mayweather is very similar to Leonard, but Leonard let his hands fly and boy did he rip people up. He ran from Hagler, who was a freak of nature, the guy was iron like Clottey and could fight!

Any list of pound for pound greatest fighters that leaves out Sugar Ray Robinson is CRAZY!

Agreed, I have Robinson at top of my list... or maybe you were talking in general.

Salvador Sanchez should be added to this list

Ali,Tyson,Robinson,Leonard,Marciano,Dempsey,Louis,Jack Johnson,Chavez,Whitaker,Duran,Foreman,Moore,Armstrong,Pacman,Lewis,Mayweather,        Holyfield and Jones Jr dropped alot because of recent years    Oscar is nowhere near the top, but you have to give him credit because he fought nearly everyone 130-160.                       

Oscar does NOT belong on this list.

Oscar is in the top 50 maybe.

Forgot Holmes and Hagler. Holyfield and Jones are dropping out of the discussion the longer they go, its been over 8 years atleast for both of them since last good win and they have both been punching bags. (listen to them speak) Meanwhile, Hopkins is like wine and gets better with age, if he beats Pascal and Dawson, he is got to be in the discussion. He had 20 defenses in the middleweight division, has beaten alot of hall of famers and has never been stopped or beaten very badly (he has been in every fight til the end).

cd2010:
Oscar in his first fight against an aging Chavez (turning 34) was able to get a TKO from a cut. Although 34 is not considered old these days, it was a shoot-out of hard punches by both fighters. Chavez had 98 pro fights and his body wasn't the same as it was 4 years prior. Fighters either abuse their bodies earlier in their careers so when they reach the age of 30, it feels and reacts like 40. On the contrary, other fighters brought along slowly like Lennox Lewis, or defensive fighters like Hopkins got better in their mid 30's because their bodies were still fresh and it also has a psychological impact as well. Very few fighters start young and abuse themselves and continue to stay as physical strong or improve.
Now back to the Oscar fights, he physically over powered an aged Chavez (not over-the-hill, but down-slide). At that time, Oscar was at his very best and perfect weight class for him. His second fight against Chavez, it was similar but Oscar had serious swelling in the 8th round, but Chavez at 36 now endured severe punishment. Chavez did do damage to Oscar as well, but he couldn't make it out for the 9th round. Oscar won a split decision over an undefeated Quartey, and this is an example how Oscar did not win impressively against a top rate opponent (barely got the win). While winning early rounds in a boring fight against undefeated and top rated Trinidad, he did not feel the need to mix it up with the knock-out artist. So after running the last few rounds he lost a majority decision. Following that loss, just two fights later he lost a split decision against an undefeated top rated Shane Mosley. He beat a much slower Gatti and out classed Vargas for a few knock out wins. Rematching against Mosley he lost a unanimous decision. He had just signed a big fight to compete against Hopkins but first fought Felix Strum. Here is a clear case of a future money fight impacting a decision on a prior fight. Besides myself the majority of fans felt Oscar lost to Strum, but he got the decision.
The Hopkins fight was just a mis-match. He was undersized and it showed when he was knocked out by a body shot. He had only four more fights in just over four years. He had fought the biggest two names currently, Manny and Floyd. In 2007 he fought Mayweather and weighed 154 against the best pound-for-pound boxer in the world. He lost a split decision, and although I felt Mayweather clearly won, this was one of Oscar's better fights. His final fight at age 35 he dropped down in weight to 145 to fight Pacquiao. He looked very weak at the weigh-in, where it showed he clearly lacked muscle density. Similar to Roy Jones when he went to Heavyweight and dropped down. Manny proved to also be the number one pound-for-pound boxer as his speed overwhelmed a helpless Oscar. This was a clear case of Manny on the rise and Oscar physically and mentally looked retired.
Here is the thing, Oscar would not make the top 50th all-time pound-for-pound just because he fought the very best. In his six biggest fights, he lost them all. The only great fighter he beat was against a war-torn aged Chavez (33 & 36) that had 98 and 104 pro fights at the time. He beat the likes of Camacho, Whitaker, Carr, Gatti, Vargas and got the nod against Quartey. Oscar would not make the top 50 all-time, but I'd consider him in the top 50 all-time for lightweight division. That's a major compliment as over the history of boxing the lightweight division was possibly the most consistent with talent and constantly competitive. Plus roughly half of the greatest welterweights and middleweights all started at lightweight!

cd2010:
I didn't forget about Larry Holmes. Just because he is so constantly overlooked doesn't mean I'd consider him a pound-for-pound great.
Hagler much more can be said for, and I stated that he was like a brick-house like Clottey but had more offensive weapons. In less than two months in 1976 he suffered two decision losses with one against Bobby Watts and the other against Willie Monroe. He avenged both those losses. In 1977 he re-matched Willie Monroe and won a twelfth round TKO. They fought the tie-breaker that same year six months later and Hagler won a 2nd round TKO victory. Then in 1980 he re-matched Bobby Watts (his only other loss) and won a 2nd round TKO. His final fight he fought Sugar Ray Leonard who was 33-1 with 24 wins by way of knock out. This would only be Leonard's second fights in over 5 years. Hagler came in 62-2-2 with 52 wins by way of knock out. Leonard won a split decision with judge Lou Filippo 115-113 for Hagler, judge Dave Moretti 115-113 for Leonard, and judge Jose Juan Guerra 118-110 for Leonard. Several rounds although Leonard moved to the point it appeared like running, he still through and landed more punches in those dull rounds.
Bernard Hopkins after losing his first fight by majority decision, five years later he lost a unanimous decision against boxing's pound-for-pound's best. Roy Jones Jr. won with all three judges scoring the same at 116-112. Two weeks after 9/11, Hopkins pulled off an upset win by knocking out 40-0 Felix Trinidad as he was dominating the fight regardless. In 2005 he lost a split and unanimous decision in two back-to-back bouts against Jermain Taylor. Stepping up to light heavyweight he won two dominating unanimous decisions over Antonio Tarver and Ronald "Winky" Wright. His next challenge was facing 44-0 Joe Calzaghe, where he lost a split decision. I felt that Calzaghe clearly won and neutralized Hopkins as he seems to do against every fighter. Next he faced the undefeated Kelly Pavlik as a big underdog. I thought that this fight was made for Hopkins and he proved me right as he dominated Pavlik and won a unanimous decision. His last fight against Pascal was a majority draw. Anyone that adds Bernard Hopkins to their list of the best, many arguments can be made that show he deserves to be considered!
Going back to Holyfield and Roy Jones Jr., I think just because they are still fighting when clearly they should have retired many years prior does not diminish what they accomplished. Muhammad Ali lost his last 3 out of 4 fights against Leon Spinks, Larry Holmes and Trevor Berbick. Now this can be shown for many fighters. Let's look at Sugar Ray Robinson. Robinson was 85-0 as an amateur with 69 of those victories coming by way of knockout, 40 in the first round. He turned professional in 1940 at the age of 19 and by 1951 had a professional record of 128-1-2 with 84 knockouts. Robinson held the world welterweight title from 1946 to 1951, and won the world middleweight title in the latter year. If he retired at that point, who could you rate higher than him? Julio Cesar Chavez was 89-0-1 before he lost a split decision to Randall. He was penalized in the 7th and 11th for low blows. If he didn't get points taken away, he would have been 96-0-1 with 79 wins by way of knockout. That's two super impressive records.
So the question remains, does fighting way past your prime where you continue to lose or having to fight opponents that aren't even ranked in the world cause your previous great feats and accomplishes to diminish in value? Or do you have to take into account a fighter's entire career accounting even the fights he had to do for money when he was clearly no longer even ranked?

Many people use a set of criteria where they rank things like longevity, come-back ability, dominating wins in big fights (pressure fighters), etc. There are also many intangibles. Calzaghe was a fighter who made the fight look somewhat lack luster cause he neutralized an opponent's offensive barrage. He did this against Kessler, Hopkins and Jones. Maybe we can make a post with a set of guidelines where each fighter is given a score for each criteria. Although it won't tell us many intangibles, it will show many others why certain fighters are ranked and why others aren't considered much. I'll try and keep it simple but also enough information to clearly separate a fighter among the rest. Please post ideas for criteria or categories where a score can be given maybe 1-10 for each section.

Dooooo-ran. Nuff said.

RJJ is 5-7 in last 7 years with 4 bad KO's, only wins were over Lacy (he is shot), Shieka (he is shot), Trinidad (too small and came out of retirement), Hanshaw (not very good retired now), and Ajamu (not very good retired now) out of all of his fights he has only Toney and Hopkins that are great wins, he was very skilled but like Tyson doesn't have alot of great wins,also he never fought Sven Ottke, an undeated champ in same weight class.

You know your Oscar, but I thought he beat Trinidad and Mosley 2nd fight, his biggest problem was running out of gas at the end, he might have beat Mayweather if not for that.

Chavez should have lost to Taylor, he was on his feet when Richard Steele stopped the fight (He is friends with Don King) and he got a draw against Whitaker (his own fans booed the decision) so when he faced a fast, skilled boxer he would lose, so he would probably lose to Oscar in his prime, I don't count Oscar's wins over him because he was at the end of the road.(blame Bob Arum for terrible matchmaking as usual) Fighting the best does count for something, unlike Mayweather who runs from people who could beat him, he could make atleast $50 million to fight Pacman, he also waits til fighters get old to fight (DLH,Mosley), he hasn't fought anyone except Hatton since Jose Luis Castillo was robbed against him (very soft opponents that have no chance against his speed) So if Mayweather is up near the top Oscar can't be further down than 50 at worst.

Forgot to mention this, Oscar fought 23 World Champions through his entire career, and Mayweather has only fought 14.

My point on Oscar is that yes many of his major fights were close, and that's the problem. He never dominated or clearly won any of those. You could call Trinidad a draw, maybe even the Mosley fights draws, but every time he fought the very best, it was a loss or so close it was a coin flip. To me an all time great fighter has at least one performance against the best competition where he rises above.

Oscar's greatest fight (victory) was when early in the fight he was seemingly much weaker than the steroid using of Vargas. Vargas is another fighter claiming he didn't know. When you are a fighter that trained many years and just recently your muscle density shows a big difference, you feel it even more so. Vargas was an above average fighter (good). The fact your opponent has added that extra strength and stamina from steroids makes it an impressive win, especially because it became very physical fight during the clinches as well. Oscar re-grouped, used his technique and let his hands go, and the rest is history. Oscar is usually the fighter that fades early, he poured it on heavy and dug deep to get a late championship round knock-out. Maybe his best performance was a loss against Mayweather. He gave Mayweather problems, and perhaps the most difficulties in of any Mayweather fight in a decade. Castillo was the last fighter to give Floyd a fight.

As I've stated. Oscar was a great fighter, but lacked power when he moved up in weight class. It's common with fighters, but Oscar wasn't a big puncher even at lightweight, but his speed and accuracy along with a great jab could dismantle fighters. Also, Oscar was a natural right handed fighter who fought southpaw. So he lacked in his back hand power punching, but in lightweight class his jab was like a stong punch so it made up for the dis-advantage. I'm by no means an Oscar hater, he had rejuvinated the boxing scene with Golden Boy. As he started promoting the smaller weight classes started getting bigger paydays, which I believe they deserved ten-fold. Heavyweights always had a draw for big dollars. Realistically, the last exciting competitive heavyweight bout was Evander vs Bowe I & II. The smaller weights are always in great shape and bring the best every fight, some heavyweights should be embarrassed to enter the ring. Buster Douglas after looking great against Tyson, looked so bad months after he fought Evander the fight was over before it began. All the great rematches, trilogies and so on were all in lighter weight classes. Marquez vs Vasquez in the first 3 fights were sensational to say the least, the 4th fight Vasquez had to many problems and wasn't the same fighter. Back to Oscar, his fights and record show the facts. He kept boxing going where many people were only left with MMA to watch. He brought back and very well promoted past champions, new stars on the rise, etc... but he wouldn't even be considered on an all time pound for pound list.

I can go all day on this topic and in a previous blog with the same discission I did, but today I have no desire to do that, the fact that not one person has yet to even mention sam langford or henry armstrong is disterbing to me, and the great joe gans was farther   ahead of his competition than any fighter in the history of the sport. also guys like willie pep, harry greb, ricardo lopez must not be forgotten either, and I know he died young but they don't get much better than salvador sanchez either and of course ray roninson will top most list. a shoutout to charley burley and jimmy wilde too

I forgott the lightweight greats roberto duran and benny leonard

I had said that no one mentioned armstrong, but you did zouk, props

thesoulpurpose: Thanks, & thanks for mentioning those fighters. I just through a few names that are more popular media all-time but you know your stuff. I was waiting for a reply as such. As you stated, we could go all day, but I think we'd first have to breakdown each division and older times weight classes were different. I think if we could get maybe 3 to 5 names in each weight class using not only record, competetion, abilities, potential, etc... we could make a real list I could promote on a nice website for fans. We would start it here and give Covers the credit for starting and building it. Or they could make a fan page. Anyways, nice post.

how bout aaron pryor at the top of his game? his fights with arguello were epic and before he ran into pryor alexis was considered one of the best pound for pound. you could go on and on. i was a joe frazier fan.

BigPapa21: Like Evander, truly a great over-achiever. He fought with one eye most his career. Talk about brutal, Joe's opponents didn'w what hurt was until they fought him.