@wallstreetcappers If those are one-offs then his first term is MOOT...if you sweep away the harm of the FED reversal and Covid then NOTHING he did with ZIRP and without Covid has any merit, it means nothing. Incorrect. Go look at the numbers from the FED and the timing. You can parse out those times for them if you like. Bu then you have to do it for everyone that had partial and full and take all of that into account. That is why I say the one-off has to be considered for both guys from the Pandemic. That is why I pointed out what great number Trump had pre-Pandemic and specifically did not use the last year as a gauge. Then I pointed out the Biden recovery after about 12 -14 months. This is fine as long as you do it for all. It is not just for one guy.
What does this even mean? What numbers from the FED are regarding ZIRP and a rate hike cycle? What numbers from the FED say that Covid and supply chain were not inflationary? What is But then you have to do it for everyone, do WHAT for everyone? what is a partial and full what is that even in reference to? A one off OUTLIER is exponentially impactful...thus it is called an outlier and you do not sponge off an outlier and act as if it did not make material impact...well you did so I guess you do.
Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22:
@wallstreetcappers If those are one-offs then his first term is MOOT...if you sweep away the harm of the FED reversal and Covid then NOTHING he did with ZIRP and without Covid has any merit, it means nothing. Incorrect. Go look at the numbers from the FED and the timing. You can parse out those times for them if you like. Bu then you have to do it for everyone that had partial and full and take all of that into account. That is why I say the one-off has to be considered for both guys from the Pandemic. That is why I pointed out what great number Trump had pre-Pandemic and specifically did not use the last year as a gauge. Then I pointed out the Biden recovery after about 12 -14 months. This is fine as long as you do it for all. It is not just for one guy.
What does this even mean? What numbers from the FED are regarding ZIRP and a rate hike cycle? What numbers from the FED say that Covid and supply chain were not inflationary? What is But then you have to do it for everyone, do WHAT for everyone? what is a partial and full what is that even in reference to? A one off OUTLIER is exponentially impactful...thus it is called an outlier and you do not sponge off an outlier and act as if it did not make material impact...well you did so I guess you do.
Data comparison to be accurate has to be as close to identical as possible, disruptions and outliers are not something you can wipe off and dismiss.
That is the smoothing out point and the reason it is done.
Take anything and see how it is done.
Say, hurricanes hit the gulf over the whole summer and shut the refineries down. The gas prices go up. Then they go back down.
You measure the whole year or the whole term. You do not just measure the area where the spike was. That is what smoothing out the data is on a very, very basic level.
If it is something that continue for a long period --say, the war. Then as you smooth it out later it will be elevated over the longer period more depending on how long whatever caused the spike continues.
@wallstreetcappers
Data comparison to be accurate has to be as close to identical as possible, disruptions and outliers are not something you can wipe off and dismiss.
That is the smoothing out point and the reason it is done.
Take anything and see how it is done.
Say, hurricanes hit the gulf over the whole summer and shut the refineries down. The gas prices go up. Then they go back down.
You measure the whole year or the whole term. You do not just measure the area where the spike was. That is what smoothing out the data is on a very, very basic level.
If it is something that continue for a long period --say, the war. Then as you smooth it out later it will be elevated over the longer period more depending on how long whatever caused the spike continues.
Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22: @wallstreetcappers If those are one-offs then his first term is MOOT...if you sweep away the harm of the FED reversal and Covid then NOTHING he did with ZIRP and without Covid has any merit, it means nothing. Incorrect. Go look at the numbers from the FED and the timing. You can parse out those times for them if you like. Bu then you have to do it for everyone that had partial and full and take all of that into account. That is why I say the one-off has to be considered for both guys from the Pandemic. That is why I pointed out what great number Trump had pre-Pandemic and specifically did not use the last year as a gauge. Then I pointed out the Biden recovery after about 12 -14 months. This is fine as long as you do it for all. It is not just for one guy. What does this even mean? What numbers from the FED are regarding ZIRP and a rate hike cycle? What numbers from the FED say that Covid and supply chain were not inflationary? What is But then you have to do it for everyone, do WHAT for everyone? what is a partial and full what is that even in reference to? A one off OUTLIER is exponentially impactful...thus it is called an outlier and you do not sponge off an outlier and act as if it did not make material impact...well you did so I guess you do.
If you want to isolate out the ZIRP portion for Trump -- then you have to do it for Biden. If you want to consider %-wise, etc. then you have to do it for Obama, Trump, and Biden.
That is why the cumulative is more important than just a section of each guy's term.
A one off OUTLIER is exponentially impactful
Perhaps, but not necessarily. Variables like length, impact and cause, etc. matter. But as you graph it out the longer it has an effect there it will slope upward.
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:
Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22: @wallstreetcappers If those are one-offs then his first term is MOOT...if you sweep away the harm of the FED reversal and Covid then NOTHING he did with ZIRP and without Covid has any merit, it means nothing. Incorrect. Go look at the numbers from the FED and the timing. You can parse out those times for them if you like. Bu then you have to do it for everyone that had partial and full and take all of that into account. That is why I say the one-off has to be considered for both guys from the Pandemic. That is why I pointed out what great number Trump had pre-Pandemic and specifically did not use the last year as a gauge. Then I pointed out the Biden recovery after about 12 -14 months. This is fine as long as you do it for all. It is not just for one guy. What does this even mean? What numbers from the FED are regarding ZIRP and a rate hike cycle? What numbers from the FED say that Covid and supply chain were not inflationary? What is But then you have to do it for everyone, do WHAT for everyone? what is a partial and full what is that even in reference to? A one off OUTLIER is exponentially impactful...thus it is called an outlier and you do not sponge off an outlier and act as if it did not make material impact...well you did so I guess you do.
If you want to isolate out the ZIRP portion for Trump -- then you have to do it for Biden. If you want to consider %-wise, etc. then you have to do it for Obama, Trump, and Biden.
That is why the cumulative is more important than just a section of each guy's term.
A one off OUTLIER is exponentially impactful
Perhaps, but not necessarily. Variables like length, impact and cause, etc. matter. But as you graph it out the longer it has an effect there it will slope upward.
@wallstreetcappers Data comparison to be accurate has to be as close to identical as possible, disruptions and outliers are not something you can wipe off and dismiss. That is the smoothing out point and the reason it is done. Take anything and see how it is done. Say, hurricanes hit the gulf over the whole summer and shut the refineries down. The gas prices go up. Then they go back down. You measure the whole year or the whole term. You do not just measure the area where the spike was. That is what smoothing out the data is on a very, very basic level. If it is something that continue for a long period --say, the war. Then as you smooth it out later it will be elevated over the longer period more depending on how long whatever caused the spike continues.
So a nuke on Japan is just smoothed out and the impact is of no importance, the 9-11 incident had no importance, the financial crisis had no economic impact since per you it is of no consequence and immaterial? Outliers and extremes are not factored in or examined even when those very items shape and distort society and the economy?
Okie dokie....
Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22:
@wallstreetcappers Data comparison to be accurate has to be as close to identical as possible, disruptions and outliers are not something you can wipe off and dismiss. That is the smoothing out point and the reason it is done. Take anything and see how it is done. Say, hurricanes hit the gulf over the whole summer and shut the refineries down. The gas prices go up. Then they go back down. You measure the whole year or the whole term. You do not just measure the area where the spike was. That is what smoothing out the data is on a very, very basic level. If it is something that continue for a long period --say, the war. Then as you smooth it out later it will be elevated over the longer period more depending on how long whatever caused the spike continues.
So a nuke on Japan is just smoothed out and the impact is of no importance, the 9-11 incident had no importance, the financial crisis had no economic impact since per you it is of no consequence and immaterial? Outliers and extremes are not factored in or examined even when those very items shape and distort society and the economy?
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers: Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22: @wallstreetcappers If those are one-offs then his first term is MOOT...if you sweep away the harm of the FED reversal and Covid then NOTHING he did with ZIRP and without Covid has any merit, it means nothing. Incorrect. Go look at the numbers from the FED and the timing. You can parse out those times for them if you like. Bu then you have to do it for everyone that had partial and full and take all of that into account. That is why I say the one-off has to be considered for both guys from the Pandemic. That is why I pointed out what great number Trump had pre-Pandemic and specifically did not use the last year as a gauge. Then I pointed out the Biden recovery after about 12 -14 months. This is fine as long as you do it for all. It is not just for one guy. What does this even mean? What numbers from the FED are regarding ZIRP and a rate hike cycle? What numbers from the FED say that Covid and supply chain were not inflationary? What is But then you have to do it for everyone, do WHAT for everyone? what is a partial and full what is that even in reference to? A one off OUTLIER is exponentially impactful...thus it is called an outlier and you do not sponge off an outlier and act as if it did not make material impact...well you did so I guess you do. If you want to isolate out the ZIRP portion for Trump -- then you have to do it for Biden. If you want to consider %-wise, etc. then you have to do it for Obama, Trump, and Biden. That is why the cumulative is more important than just a section of each guy's term. A one off OUTLIER is exponentially impactful Perhaps, but not necessarily. Variables like length, impact and cause, etc. matter. But as you graph it out the longer it has an effect there it will slope upward.
I never compared Trump to Obama outside what he inherited when he came into office. Trump had ZIRP longer and the cycle spiked faster for Biden, Trump only had a blip of Covid while Biden had it the entire time.
An outlier is MORE material than even comparable data, so if Biden had covid that in itself is an economic outlier MORE impactful and valuable to analyze than even comparable identical data...it means more. Same goes for 9-11 and the financial crisis. those impact heavier and are severe in their damage, they mean much more than smooth sailing no challenge.
So was this war inflationary? Is constraining global trade inflationary? Were tariffs which were refunded to corps and NOT consumers inflationary? Is higher interest payments due to excesses in spending and inflation itself inflationary? If the government spends more on debt service and less on social programs which shifts the costs and burden onto the citizen, is that not inflationary?
Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22:
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers: Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22: @wallstreetcappers If those are one-offs then his first term is MOOT...if you sweep away the harm of the FED reversal and Covid then NOTHING he did with ZIRP and without Covid has any merit, it means nothing. Incorrect. Go look at the numbers from the FED and the timing. You can parse out those times for them if you like. Bu then you have to do it for everyone that had partial and full and take all of that into account. That is why I say the one-off has to be considered for both guys from the Pandemic. That is why I pointed out what great number Trump had pre-Pandemic and specifically did not use the last year as a gauge. Then I pointed out the Biden recovery after about 12 -14 months. This is fine as long as you do it for all. It is not just for one guy. What does this even mean? What numbers from the FED are regarding ZIRP and a rate hike cycle? What numbers from the FED say that Covid and supply chain were not inflationary? What is But then you have to do it for everyone, do WHAT for everyone? what is a partial and full what is that even in reference to? A one off OUTLIER is exponentially impactful...thus it is called an outlier and you do not sponge off an outlier and act as if it did not make material impact...well you did so I guess you do. If you want to isolate out the ZIRP portion for Trump -- then you have to do it for Biden. If you want to consider %-wise, etc. then you have to do it for Obama, Trump, and Biden. That is why the cumulative is more important than just a section of each guy's term. A one off OUTLIER is exponentially impactful Perhaps, but not necessarily. Variables like length, impact and cause, etc. matter. But as you graph it out the longer it has an effect there it will slope upward.
I never compared Trump to Obama outside what he inherited when he came into office. Trump had ZIRP longer and the cycle spiked faster for Biden, Trump only had a blip of Covid while Biden had it the entire time.
An outlier is MORE material than even comparable data, so if Biden had covid that in itself is an economic outlier MORE impactful and valuable to analyze than even comparable identical data...it means more. Same goes for 9-11 and the financial crisis. those impact heavier and are severe in their damage, they mean much more than smooth sailing no challenge.
So was this war inflationary? Is constraining global trade inflationary? Were tariffs which were refunded to corps and NOT consumers inflationary? Is higher interest payments due to excesses in spending and inflation itself inflationary? If the government spends more on debt service and less on social programs which shifts the costs and burden onto the citizen, is that not inflationary?
So a nuke on Japan is just smoothed out and the impact is of no importance,
What is the point of saying this type of nonsense.
Yes, it matters. The ENTIRE impact would be smoothed out over whatever period of time you are looking at. Then the amount of impact would show up in the data. Obviously, the more extreme something is the more of an impact it has on the data once you smooth it out.
THAT is why when you look at each President's term and smooth out the impacts -- financial crisis, Pandemic, wars, recessions, oil shutdowns, etc. -- they all come out in the smoothed out data. The ones that have the least impact show up less in the overall data; the ones that have the most impact are reflected in it as well.
'So, yes the more extreme something is the more it likely impacts the data overall at the end -- but that is the entire POINT of looking at the whole period.
Do you really not understand how and why this is done?
You would not want to measure Obama at the financial crisis, Trump at the pandemic height and then measure Biden at only the top of the Pandemic recovery.
That would give you a very skewed look at all three. So, that is what I mean by preferring a cumulative look at each of them.
@wallstreetcappers
So a nuke on Japan is just smoothed out and the impact is of no importance,
What is the point of saying this type of nonsense.
Yes, it matters. The ENTIRE impact would be smoothed out over whatever period of time you are looking at. Then the amount of impact would show up in the data. Obviously, the more extreme something is the more of an impact it has on the data once you smooth it out.
THAT is why when you look at each President's term and smooth out the impacts -- financial crisis, Pandemic, wars, recessions, oil shutdowns, etc. -- they all come out in the smoothed out data. The ones that have the least impact show up less in the overall data; the ones that have the most impact are reflected in it as well.
'So, yes the more extreme something is the more it likely impacts the data overall at the end -- but that is the entire POINT of looking at the whole period.
Do you really not understand how and why this is done?
You would not want to measure Obama at the financial crisis, Trump at the pandemic height and then measure Biden at only the top of the Pandemic recovery.
That would give you a very skewed look at all three. So, that is what I mean by preferring a cumulative look at each of them.
After 4 years of Dementia Joe, what choice was there? Think about it......who would want harris as POTUS? She's a blithering idiot, so it wasn't so much a vote FOR Trump as a vote against Harris.
Again, the answer is really this simple.
Quote Originally Posted by THEMUGG:
After 4 years of Dementia Joe, what choice was there? Think about it......who would want harris as POTUS? She's a blithering idiot, so it wasn't so much a vote FOR Trump as a vote against Harris.
Trump had ZIRP longer and the cycle spiked faster for Biden For example...I will wait?
During 2017-2021, interest rates stayed low, However in 2022, inflation forced federal reserve to adjust rates higher for longer period. Trump was more lucky than Biden.
Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22:
Trump had ZIRP longer and the cycle spiked faster for Biden For example...I will wait?
During 2017-2021, interest rates stayed low, However in 2022, inflation forced federal reserve to adjust rates higher for longer period. Trump was more lucky than Biden.
Yep. That has already been established repeatedly. It is acknowledged that the tail end of Trump’s economy got hurt by the Pandemic. It is also acknowledged that Biden’s term benefited in several areas after the country opened back up.
As has been pointed out, you have to look at more than just the interest rates. That is why you can consider things like real wage growth. He outperformed Biden before the Pandemic even after Biden got ‘lucky’ to benefit from the Pandemic shutdowns ending.
Then you see Trump is already out-performing Biden now on this front in this term as well.
So, as they say it is better to be ‘lucky’ than good sometimes.
But what if he is both lucky and good. Or what if his polices are good enough to create his own ‘luck’ in the economy.
If your real wage growth is outpacing inflation and rates — then the folks at least do not feel it as much. This is again why cumulative measures point this out more effectively.
So, if someone has consistently done better than the last two guys on two different occasions — it might be a bit more than just being ‘lucky’.
@thirdperson
Yep. That has already been established repeatedly. It is acknowledged that the tail end of Trump’s economy got hurt by the Pandemic. It is also acknowledged that Biden’s term benefited in several areas after the country opened back up.
As has been pointed out, you have to look at more than just the interest rates. That is why you can consider things like real wage growth. He outperformed Biden before the Pandemic even after Biden got ‘lucky’ to benefit from the Pandemic shutdowns ending.
Then you see Trump is already out-performing Biden now on this front in this term as well.
So, as they say it is better to be ‘lucky’ than good sometimes.
But what if he is both lucky and good. Or what if his polices are good enough to create his own ‘luck’ in the economy.
If your real wage growth is outpacing inflation and rates — then the folks at least do not feel it as much. This is again why cumulative measures point this out more effectively.
So, if someone has consistently done better than the last two guys on two different occasions — it might be a bit more than just being ‘lucky’.
Biden was horrible! China, Ukraine, Gaza, the Economy, & he flooded USA with illegal immigrants! Americans overwhelmingly want illegal immigrants out, Dems arguing about it is a Winner for Republicans.
Trump had 4 years to study up to figure out USA & our World for his 2025 Presidency instead he Golfed. Trump hired too many idiots & folks who hate him, it’s so bizarre.
Trump’s economic plan is for better or worse is Alexander Hamilton’s economic plan which was Tariffs & forcing Foreign Nations to pay for it instead of USA citizens but Trump is an Egomaniac, Psychopath, Idiot not Alexander Hamilton.
Big Picture Non Party USA’s economy supports Corporations, Oligarchs, & Senior Citizens while pummeling the poor, middle class, & small business owner. The Dollar Reserve Currency Status has forced Manufacturing Labor outside the USA!
The Dems will rise to Power & win in 2028 because even if Trump starts to do the Right Things he doesn’t have enough time! Once the DSA has Power in 2028 they will Prioritize the wrong things & those Priorities will fail to deliver the Results the Younger Generation wants.
Our Tech Industry as morally bankrupt as it is can now see what needs to be done, well see how Capable these guys are because if they want to remain Tops in what they do, they need to bite the bullet bringing Manufacturing back home. The Chinese have USA Tech bent over a barrel, we need to take the loss then rebuild.
Biden was horrible! China, Ukraine, Gaza, the Economy, & he flooded USA with illegal immigrants! Americans overwhelmingly want illegal immigrants out, Dems arguing about it is a Winner for Republicans.
Trump had 4 years to study up to figure out USA & our World for his 2025 Presidency instead he Golfed. Trump hired too many idiots & folks who hate him, it’s so bizarre.
Trump’s economic plan is for better or worse is Alexander Hamilton’s economic plan which was Tariffs & forcing Foreign Nations to pay for it instead of USA citizens but Trump is an Egomaniac, Psychopath, Idiot not Alexander Hamilton.
Big Picture Non Party USA’s economy supports Corporations, Oligarchs, & Senior Citizens while pummeling the poor, middle class, & small business owner. The Dollar Reserve Currency Status has forced Manufacturing Labor outside the USA!
The Dems will rise to Power & win in 2028 because even if Trump starts to do the Right Things he doesn’t have enough time! Once the DSA has Power in 2028 they will Prioritize the wrong things & those Priorities will fail to deliver the Results the Younger Generation wants.
Our Tech Industry as morally bankrupt as it is can now see what needs to be done, well see how Capable these guys are because if they want to remain Tops in what they do, they need to bite the bullet bringing Manufacturing back home. The Chinese have USA Tech bent over a barrel, we need to take the loss then rebuild.
Economic growth, fiscal deficit and unemployment were better under Biden. Trump is lucky to inherit strong economies from Obama and Biden. However in both terms, economies deteriorated rather than improved under his watch. Now polls reveal most voters say US economy was better under Biden.
Economic growth, fiscal deficit and unemployment were better under Biden. Trump is lucky to inherit strong economies from Obama and Biden. However in both terms, economies deteriorated rather than improved under his watch. Now polls reveal most voters say US economy was better under Biden.
Wrong things were bad under Biden! Wrong polls don’t prove Biden was better! The Polls prove most Americans not all are unhappy with Trump!
Polls prove Most not all Americans want Illegal Immigrants out but nobody wants Anyone treated poorly on their way out.
Trump has shut down the border one of Trump’s few wins! Furthermore owners of Stocks & those that have good paying jobs are cool with Trump.
Big Dem Donors & Big Republican Donors have a Symbiotic Relationship!
The difference between Repub Donors & Dem donors is this:
Republican Donors have zero common ground with their base voters, ZERO!
Democrat Donors share the same Ideology with their base Voters = Socialism but Dem Donors support Corporate Fascism as long as they get “Quid Pro Quo” = Tech Industry Fascism = Facebook, Twitter, Goldman Sachs, etc..
The divide in the Dem Party is this: Establishment Dems are Socialist but they don’t believe Socialism Platforms can win Federal elections that’s why GA Senator Jon Ossof, Dem House Rep WA Adam Smith deny & bash DSA platforms & why Alaska Senator Lock to win Mary Peltola tossed Kamela Harris under the bus when Harris said she backed Peltola for Senator. The Green Agenda lost in the Western Countries only the radicals want it. The Dem Establishment is vigorously fighting DSA Politicians only because they don’t believe the Platform can win Federal Elections.
I stated this Many Many times here by 2028 the younger Generation in the USA will be desperate for change & the Baby Boomers will be mostly Dems because the Older Baby Boomers (Republicans) will be dying off. Our Desperate Young voters will vote for Socialist Dems because they will say the right things & make promises (like Trump) they can’t deliver.
By 2032 America will be filled with super pissed People! = More Assassinations of high profile people! It’s going to be a mess! A lot of you guys are Generation X & Baby Boomers you’r not doing your younger generation good when you constantly bash Trump beyond what’s necessary to neutralize him which you have done. Trump’s a Lame Duck that will be impeached! Hopefully when he wiggles out of Senate Impeachment you will realize Dem Leadership is screwing you & that you need to partner with Tea Party America first to fix this country, otherwise our youth is Doomed. I bet on Trump will be Impeached & I bet on Trump will not complete his term as POTUS, I expect to 1-1 = Push because Americans are stupid! Canada/Greenland will be USA & A Dem POTUS may be leading the charge. All this garbage ridiculing & bashing every stinking thing that comes out of Trump’s mouth is a distraction from the REAL Issues WE ALL FACE. I’m anti Socialist but I no longer debate Socialism because we lost the debate for now because we can’t convince you otherwise! But a time will come 2032 when Socialist will have had their shot @ fixing USA & have failed, that’s when debate makes sense.
@thirdperson
Wrong things were bad under Biden! Wrong polls don’t prove Biden was better! The Polls prove most Americans not all are unhappy with Trump!
Polls prove Most not all Americans want Illegal Immigrants out but nobody wants Anyone treated poorly on their way out.
Trump has shut down the border one of Trump’s few wins! Furthermore owners of Stocks & those that have good paying jobs are cool with Trump.
Big Dem Donors & Big Republican Donors have a Symbiotic Relationship!
The difference between Repub Donors & Dem donors is this:
Republican Donors have zero common ground with their base voters, ZERO!
Democrat Donors share the same Ideology with their base Voters = Socialism but Dem Donors support Corporate Fascism as long as they get “Quid Pro Quo” = Tech Industry Fascism = Facebook, Twitter, Goldman Sachs, etc..
The divide in the Dem Party is this: Establishment Dems are Socialist but they don’t believe Socialism Platforms can win Federal elections that’s why GA Senator Jon Ossof, Dem House Rep WA Adam Smith deny & bash DSA platforms & why Alaska Senator Lock to win Mary Peltola tossed Kamela Harris under the bus when Harris said she backed Peltola for Senator. The Green Agenda lost in the Western Countries only the radicals want it. The Dem Establishment is vigorously fighting DSA Politicians only because they don’t believe the Platform can win Federal Elections.
I stated this Many Many times here by 2028 the younger Generation in the USA will be desperate for change & the Baby Boomers will be mostly Dems because the Older Baby Boomers (Republicans) will be dying off. Our Desperate Young voters will vote for Socialist Dems because they will say the right things & make promises (like Trump) they can’t deliver.
By 2032 America will be filled with super pissed People! = More Assassinations of high profile people! It’s going to be a mess! A lot of you guys are Generation X & Baby Boomers you’r not doing your younger generation good when you constantly bash Trump beyond what’s necessary to neutralize him which you have done. Trump’s a Lame Duck that will be impeached! Hopefully when he wiggles out of Senate Impeachment you will realize Dem Leadership is screwing you & that you need to partner with Tea Party America first to fix this country, otherwise our youth is Doomed. I bet on Trump will be Impeached & I bet on Trump will not complete his term as POTUS, I expect to 1-1 = Push because Americans are stupid! Canada/Greenland will be USA & A Dem POTUS may be leading the charge. All this garbage ridiculing & bashing every stinking thing that comes out of Trump’s mouth is a distraction from the REAL Issues WE ALL FACE. I’m anti Socialist but I no longer debate Socialism because we lost the debate for now because we can’t convince you otherwise! But a time will come 2032 when Socialist will have had their shot @ fixing USA & have failed, that’s when debate makes sense.
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