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    All Forums | NBA Betting Forum

    NBA line making model. Will post interesting/strange lines.

    123 ... 678 Next Last»
    Bermax
    AussieDownUnder
    theclaw
    ianch
    ad1260
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    123 ... 678 Next Last»
     
    Bermax
    Bermax
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    Posted: Mar. 29, 2015 - 7:12 AM ET #1

    As of recently I've grown an interest in Basketball statistics. I'm tinkering with a simple home made mathematical model calculating NBA lines, a bit crude as of now but I'm looking to refine it, hence starting this thread. It takes into account quantifiable factors known before the game; variables in the model are:

    *Offensive rating/Defensive Rating/Pace for the last 6/last 12 matches/Season

    *Hcourt advantage adjuster (crude average except for DEN and UTA, only two teams with an above average statistically significant Hca in the league).

    *B2B road games adjuster

    *Referee bias (optional)

    On a side note I also have an input where I can get pythagorean expectations (%age probability) for covering the spread and the total based on season to date results.

    Here's a picture:
    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5628798/Screenshot%20from%202015-03-29%2013%3A02%3A44.png

    I might get into the details how everything's calculated and weighed together if someone's interested and I have the time to do a write-up. Model is full time+OT only. It gives out lines pretty close to Vegas opening lines most of the times. It actually produces an expected score for each team which is nice since you could use it to judge not only the spread but any betting proposition; totals, team totals etc.

    What is interesting of course is when lines diverge. An example was yesterdays matchup GSW@MIL. Books had GSW at -5, model had them at -13.5. Ended 108-95. No team news out that could account for more than a few point give or take. A single game doesn't say anything of course, just brought it up as an example.

    What is missing is team news and lineup changes, since the model only works with averages. There's no way it can take into account an event like yesterday's when ATL decided to rest their usual starting 5. Primarily I think I'll be posting interesting diverging lines so anyone interested can give input as to why they might differ; what info is out there? If there's no reasonable explanation that could be a value scenario.

    If anyone's got suggestions on simple quantifiable variables that are easily found online and that could be incorporated that is also welcome. Please have some underpinning to your reasoning in this case: your own data or someone else's analysis (give source). For example I adjust the score with one point if B2B road; I know this is the average effect on the point diff since I have a database with 8,000 NBA games where I have looked this up. General statements without evidence like "I think four road games in five days have an impact on the total going under" are pretty useless. Also please don't suggest any kind of streaks. They are random, period.

    Grateful for your feedback! I won't be posting everyday but every now and then.


    DISCLAIMER. THIS IS A HOBBY PROJECT. I HAVEN'T MADE ANY MONEY MYSELF BETTING THE NBA. I CAN BARELY TELL A POINT GUARD FROM A CENTER AND IF YOU'D ASK ME ABOUT LEBRONS CURRENT FORM I WOULDN'T HAVE A CLUE. MY INTERESTS ARE PRIMARILY STATISTICS, PROBABILITY THEORY AND PREDICTIVE MODELING, WHICH ALL COME TOGETHER NICELY IN THE PROCESS OF VEGAS LINE MAKING AND ANALYSING. THIS IS A WORK IN PROGRESS, I'M CALIBRATING THIS TOOL AND NOT WAGERING ANY MONEY MYSELF AS OF YET. DON'T EXPECT PROFITABLE RESULTS FOLLOWING ANY LEADS. BE AWARE THAT VEGAS LINES ON MAINSTREAM SPORTS ARE VERY SHARP.
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    To remove first post, remove entire topic.
    As of recently I've grown an interest in Basketball statistics. I'm tinkering with a simple home made mathematical model calculating NBA lines, a bit crude as of now but I'm looking to refine it, hence starting this thread. It takes into account quantifiable factors known before the game; variables in the model are:

    *Offensive rating/Defensive Rating/Pace for the last 6/last 12 matches/Season

    *Hcourt advantage adjuster (crude average except for DEN and UTA, only two teams with an above average statistically significant Hca in the league).

    *B2B road games adjuster

    *Referee bias (optional)

    On a side note I also have an input where I can get pythagorean expectations (%age probability) for covering the spread and the total based on season to date results.

    Here's a picture:
    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5628798/Screenshot%20from%202015-03-29%2013%3A02%3A44.png

    I might get into the details how everything's calculated and weighed together if someone's interested and I have the time to do a write-up. Model is full time+OT only. It gives out lines pretty close to Vegas opening lines most of the times. It actually produces an expected score for each team which is nice since you could use it to judge not only the spread but any betting proposition; totals, team totals etc.

    What is interesting of course is when lines diverge. An example was yesterdays matchup GSW@MIL. Books had GSW at -5, model had them at -13.5. Ended 108-95. No team news out that could account for more than a few point give or take. A single game doesn't say anything of course, just brought it up as an example.

    What is missing is team news and lineup changes, since the model only works with averages. There's no way it can take into account an event like yesterday's when ATL decided to rest their usual starting 5. Primarily I think I'll be posting interesting diverging lines so anyone interested can give input as to why they might differ; what info is out there? If there's no reasonable explanation that could be a value scenario.

    If anyone's got suggestions on simple quantifiable variables that are easily found online and that could be incorporated that is also welcome. Please have some underpinning to your reasoning in this case: your own data or someone else's analysis (give source). For example I adjust the score with one point if B2B road; I know this is the average effect on the point diff since I have a database with 8,000 NBA games where I have looked this up. General statements without evidence like "I think four road games in five days have an impact on the total going under" are pretty useless. Also please don't suggest any kind of streaks. They are random, period.

    Grateful for your feedback! I won't be posting everyday but every now and then.


    DISCLAIMER. THIS IS A HOBBY PROJECT. I HAVEN'T MADE ANY MONEY MYSELF BETTING THE NBA. I CAN BARELY TELL A POINT GUARD FROM A CENTER AND IF YOU'D ASK ME ABOUT LEBRONS CURRENT FORM I WOULDN'T HAVE A CLUE. MY INTERESTS ARE PRIMARILY STATISTICS, PROBABILITY THEORY AND PREDICTIVE MODELING, WHICH ALL COME TOGETHER NICELY IN THE PROCESS OF VEGAS LINE MAKING AND ANALYSING. THIS IS A WORK IN PROGRESS, I'M CALIBRATING THIS TOOL AND NOT WAGERING ANY MONEY MYSELF AS OF YET. DON'T EXPECT PROFITABLE RESULTS FOLLOWING ANY LEADS. BE AWARE THAT VEGAS LINES ON MAINSTREAM SPORTS ARE VERY SHARP.
     
    Bermax
    Bermax
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    Posted: Mar. 29, 2015 - 8:21 AM ET #2

    Model's way off the line in the rockets wizards matchup.

    I get

    HOU 100.1
    WAS 91.9

    Total 192
    Line -8.2


    Looking at Pinnacle's team totals it looks like the WAS line is the most off, they have them at:

    HOU 103
    WAS 101.5

    Thoughts?
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    Model's way off the line in the rockets wizards matchup.

    I get

    HOU 100.1
    WAS 91.9

    Total 192
    Line -8.2


    Looking at Pinnacle's team totals it looks like the WAS line is the most off, they have them at:

    HOU 103
    WAS 101.5

    Thoughts?
     
    AussieDownUnder
    AussieDownUnder
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    Posts: 21208
    Posted: Mar. 29, 2015 - 8:30 AM ET #3

    Hey Bermax,

    I use a similar home made system that uses the same things that you are using. I would like to know, which site are you using to obtain your stats from?
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    Hey Bermax,

    I use a similar home made system that uses the same things that you are using. I would like to know, which site are you using to obtain your stats from?
     
    theclaw
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    Posted: Mar. 29, 2015 - 9:13 AM ET #4

    One of the best sites for stats is....basketball-reference com

    Alot of advanced stats and every year in history. Box-scores from years ago and such.
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    One of the best sites for stats is....basketball-reference com

    Alot of advanced stats and every year in history. Box-scores from years ago and such.
     
    Bermax
    Bermax
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    Posted: Mar. 29, 2015 - 9:15 AM ET #5

    I use basketball-reference. Under respective team - current season there is a heading called gamelog that among other stats tabulates ortg drtg and pace. If you're on Firefox you can ctrl click and drag to easily copy parts of html tables. Gonna try to auto import this into libreoffice calc in the future but this suffices for now.
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    I use basketball-reference. Under respective team - current season there is a heading called gamelog that among other stats tabulates ortg drtg and pace. If you're on Firefox you can ctrl click and drag to easily copy parts of html tables. Gonna try to auto import this into libreoffice calc in the future but this suffices for now.
     
    Bermax
    Bermax
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    Posted: Mar. 29, 2015 - 10:04 AM ET #6

    Books just posted OKC@PHO totals. Model's close in spread but totals really off.

    Model
    OKC 93.0 +2.3 188.3
    PHO 95.3 -2.3

    Pinnacle
    OKC 107.0 +1.0 213.5
    PHO 107.5 -1.0

    Seems books and bettors are believing this will be fast paced/high off/low def. Nothing in actual recent performances of either team that really supports that.
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    Books just posted OKC@PHO totals. Model's close in spread but totals really off.

    Model
    OKC 93.0 +2.3 188.3
    PHO 95.3 -2.3

    Pinnacle
    OKC 107.0 +1.0 213.5
    PHO 107.5 -1.0

    Seems books and bettors are believing this will be fast paced/high off/low def. Nothing in actual recent performances of either team that really supports that.
     
    ianch
    ianch
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    Posted: Mar. 29, 2015 - 10:23 AM ET #7

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    Bermax
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    Posted: Mar. 29, 2015 - 10:25 AM ET #8

    Quote Originally Posted by Bermax:

    Books just posted OKC@PHO totals. Model's close in spread but totals really off.

    Model
    OKC 93.0 +2.3 188.3
    PHO 95.3 -2.3

    Pinnacle
    OKC 107.0 +1.0 213.5
    PHO 107.5 -1.0

    Seems books and bettors are believing this will be fast paced/high off/low def. Nothing in actual recent performances of either team that really supports that.

    Oops forget about that, sorted a table the wrong way and input the first results this season into my sheet. Gotta be careful w manual handling of data. these are the correct Lines, still lower by the model:

    Model
    OKC   99.7 +2.0 201.4
    PHO  101.7 -2.0

    Pinnacle
    OKC 107.0 +1.0 213.5
    PHO  107.5 -1.0
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bermax:

    Books just posted OKC@PHO totals. Model's close in spread but totals really off.

    Model
    OKC 93.0 +2.3 188.3
    PHO 95.3 -2.3

    Pinnacle
    OKC 107.0 +1.0 213.5
    PHO 107.5 -1.0

    Seems books and bettors are believing this will be fast paced/high off/low def. Nothing in actual recent performances of either team that really supports that.

    Oops forget about that, sorted a table the wrong way and input the first results this season into my sheet. Gotta be careful w manual handling of data. these are the correct Lines, still lower by the model:

    Model
    OKC   99.7 +2.0 201.4
    PHO  101.7 -2.0

    Pinnacle
    OKC 107.0 +1.0 213.5
    PHO  107.5 -1.0
     
    ad1260
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    Posted: Mar. 29, 2015 - 10:42 AM ET #9

    Bermax,

    In another thread yesterday you posted that you had Golden State by 13 and the line was set at 5.

    Sure enough…Golden State won by 13 exactly. 


    So based on your analysis of the Houston/Washington game…you'd lean/bet Houston?

    Am I following this correctly? 
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    Bermax,

    In another thread yesterday you posted that you had Golden State by 13 and the line was set at 5.

    Sure enough…Golden State won by 13 exactly. 


    So based on your analysis of the Houston/Washington game…you'd lean/bet Houston?

    Am I following this correctly? 
     
    Bermax
    Bermax
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    Posted: Mar. 29, 2015 - 10:46 AM ET #10

    One general observation after less than a week of generating lines (though not applicable in the two examples posted above), is that more than often the underdog total is spot on, while a clear favorite team total will be 2-4 points lower in the model. So the lines on totals - team totals favorite - favorite spread seem to be somewhat inflated in the books (if the models not totally wonky, of course).

    There could be some reason to this as it's goes well with the thought of books getting the most action on favorites and raising the line to balance the action.
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    One general observation after less than a week of generating lines (though not applicable in the two examples posted above), is that more than often the underdog total is spot on, while a clear favorite team total will be 2-4 points lower in the model. So the lines on totals - team totals favorite - favorite spread seem to be somewhat inflated in the books (if the models not totally wonky, of course).

    There could be some reason to this as it's goes well with the thought of books getting the most action on favorites and raising the line to balance the action.
     
    Bermax
    Bermax
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    Posted: Mar. 29, 2015 - 10:49 AM ET #11

    Quote Originally Posted by ad1260:

    Bermax,

    In another thread yesterday you posted that you had Golden State by 13 and the line was set at 5.

    Sure enough…Golden State won by 13 exactly. 


    So based on your analysis of the Houston/Washington game…you'd lean/bet Houston?

    Am I following this correctly? 

    Perhaps the best bet which utilizes such a bias the most would be an under bet on WAS team totals, but, yes the spread is off to as you note. (Though pretty please read my DISCLAIMER in the first post )
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    Quote Originally Posted by ad1260:

    Bermax,

    In another thread yesterday you posted that you had Golden State by 13 and the line was set at 5.

    Sure enough…Golden State won by 13 exactly. 


    So based on your analysis of the Houston/Washington game…you'd lean/bet Houston?

    Am I following this correctly? 

    Perhaps the best bet which utilizes such a bias the most would be an under bet on WAS team totals, but, yes the spread is off to as you note. (Though pretty please read my DISCLAIMER in the first post )
     
    BigJohn96
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    Posted: Mar. 29, 2015 - 10:50 AM ET #12

    What about injury...how do you account for that and last minute player's not suiting up...?

    Where is the formula for this....?
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    What about injury...how do you account for that and last minute player's not suiting up...?

    Where is the formula for this....?
     
    TsikenBreast
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    Posted: Mar. 29, 2015 - 10:52 AM ET #13

    with regards to post #2 let's say you have houston as 8 point favorites, and then actual line is 2.5. Does this system go WITH or AGAINST houston.

    Im usually the contrarian. others might think getting houston is a "bargain" at 2.5. i would usually think of it as luring in more bets on houston at 2.5-the sucker bet.
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    with regards to post #2 let's say you have houston as 8 point favorites, and then actual line is 2.5. Does this system go WITH or AGAINST houston.

    Im usually the contrarian. others might think getting houston is a "bargain" at 2.5. i would usually think of it as luring in more bets on houston at 2.5-the sucker bet.
     
    ad1260
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    Posted: Mar. 29, 2015 - 10:57 AM ET #14

    Very interesting.

    I initially leaned Houston today and when I read this it made me feel a little bit better. 

    Thanks for sharing. 
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    Very interesting.

    I initially leaned Houston today and when I read this it made me feel a little bit better. 

    Thanks for sharing. 
     
    Bermax
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    Posted: Mar. 29, 2015 - 10:58 AM ET #15

    Quote Originally Posted by BigJohn96:

    What about injury...how do you account for that and last minute player's not suiting up...?

    Where is the formula for this....?

    It doesn't in any way, that's why I'm interested in input from everyone on the lines. Didn't you read the first post at all?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJohn96:

    What about injury...how do you account for that and last minute player's not suiting up...?

    Where is the formula for this....?

    It doesn't in any way, that's why I'm interested in input from everyone on the lines. Didn't you read the first post at all?
     
    Bermax
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    Posted: Mar. 29, 2015 - 10:58 AM ET #16

    Quote Originally Posted by BigJohn96:

    What about injury...how do you account for that and last minute player's not suiting up...?

    Where is the formula for this....?

    It doesn't in any way, that's why I'm interested in input from everyone on the lines. Didn't you read the first post at all?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJohn96:

    What about injury...how do you account for that and last minute player's not suiting up...?

    Where is the formula for this....?

    It doesn't in any way, that's why I'm interested in input from everyone on the lines. Didn't you read the first post at all?
     
    yungro28
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    Posted: Mar. 29, 2015 - 11:01 AM ET #17

    Bermax, your model is interesting and I would love to read a write up on how you calculate and weigh everything.  As far as the Hou vs Was game, I just know that Motiejunas, beverley, jones and papanikolau are out for Houston.  Papanikolau has been out 17 games, jones the last 5, and beverley the last 3 but Motiejunas is gonna be out the first time in a little while so Im not sure if that has an impact on your model or not

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    Bermax, your model is interesting and I would love to read a write up on how you calculate and weigh everything.  As far as the Hou vs Was game, I just know that Motiejunas, beverley, jones and papanikolau are out for Houston.  Papanikolau has been out 17 games, jones the last 5, and beverley the last 3 but Motiejunas is gonna be out the first time in a little while so Im not sure if that has an impact on your model or not

     
    Bermax
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    Posted: Mar. 29, 2015 - 11:02 AM ET #18

    Quote Originally Posted by TsikenBreast:

    with regards to post #2 let's say you have houston as 8 point favorites, and then actual line is 2.5. Does this system go WITH or AGAINST houston.

    Im usually the contrarian. others might think getting houston is a "bargain" at 2.5. i would usually think of it as luring in more bets on houston at 2.5-the sucker bet.

    Of course you'd bet a team @-2.5 if you'd have reason to believe that the correct price would be -8.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TsikenBreast:

    with regards to post #2 let's say you have houston as 8 point favorites, and then actual line is 2.5. Does this system go WITH or AGAINST houston.

    Im usually the contrarian. others might think getting houston is a "bargain" at 2.5. i would usually think of it as luring in more bets on houston at 2.5-the sucker bet.

    Of course you'd bet a team @-2.5 if you'd have reason to believe that the correct price would be -8.
     
    BigJohn96
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    Posted: Mar. 29, 2015 - 11:02 AM ET #19

    Back to the drawing board professor....



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    Back to the drawing board professor....



     
    Bermax
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    Posted: Mar. 29, 2015 - 11:07 AM ET #20

    Quote Originally Posted by yungro28:

    Bermax, your model is interesting and I would love to read a write up on how you calculate and weigh everything.  As far as the Hou vs Was game, I just know that Motiejunas, beverley, jones and papanikolau are out for Houston.  Papanikolau has been out 17 games, jones the last 5, and beverley the last 3 but Motiejunas is gonna be out the first time in a little while so Im not sure if that has an impact on your model or not


    Thx, this probably explains a fair bit of the line difference then, as the model, as clearly stated in the first post, doesn't utilize any such information at all. It works with averages and thereby "assumes" that the lineup playing is the "average" one for that team this season, to put it in a straightforward way. So you have to see the lines generated compared to books lines in light of exactly the sort of info you just provided. Thanks for sharing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by yungro28:

    Bermax, your model is interesting and I would love to read a write up on how you calculate and weigh everything.  As far as the Hou vs Was game, I just know that Motiejunas, beverley, jones and papanikolau are out for Houston.  Papanikolau has been out 17 games, jones the last 5, and beverley the last 3 but Motiejunas is gonna be out the first time in a little while so Im not sure if that has an impact on your model or not


    Thx, this probably explains a fair bit of the line difference then, as the model, as clearly stated in the first post, doesn't utilize any such information at all. It works with averages and thereby "assumes" that the lineup playing is the "average" one for that team this season, to put it in a straightforward way. So you have to see the lines generated compared to books lines in light of exactly the sort of info you just provided. Thanks for sharing.
     
    thailam
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    Posted: Mar. 29, 2015 - 11:09 AM ET #21

    Bermax mathematicall you right sometime goo opposit, , it game,, hou rocket fast 3 point shoot,, we see over ,, this 2 team go crazy,, see ,, hou rocket I follow alway put me down 1 more time Hardward
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    Bermax mathematicall you right sometime goo opposit, , it game,, hou rocket fast 3 point shoot,, we see over ,, this 2 team go crazy,, see ,, hou rocket I follow alway put me down 1 more time Hardward
     
    Bermax
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    Posted: Mar. 29, 2015 - 11:11 AM ET #22

    Quote Originally Posted by BigJohn96:

    Back to the drawing board professor....




    But that's exactly where I'm at, wasn't that clear in the first post? Nice behind btw. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJohn96:

    Back to the drawing board professor....




    But that's exactly where I'm at, wasn't that clear in the first post? Nice behind btw. 
     
    BigJohn96
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    Posted: Mar. 29, 2015 - 11:25 AM ET #23

    Bear,

    No offense to your system but most analyst over think it. In NBA currently it's hard enough to cap games. There are already to many variables that go's into the given line.

    This is where US  come into and try to cap it, formulas, hot streak, home court, refs, injury, and so on.

    We are ALL here in these forums looking for insight or just reading to see how it will playout.

    Gl on your wagers!
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    Bear,

    No offense to your system but most analyst over think it. In NBA currently it's hard enough to cap games. There are already to many variables that go's into the given line.

    This is where US  come into and try to cap it, formulas, hot streak, home court, refs, injury, and so on.

    We are ALL here in these forums looking for insight or just reading to see how it will playout.

    Gl on your wagers!
     
    BigJoe83
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    Posted: Mar. 29, 2015 - 11:28 AM ET #24

    Quote Originally Posted by Bermax:

    Books just posted OKC@PHO totals. Model's close in spread but totals really off.

    Model
    OKC 93.0 +2.3 188.3
    PHO 95.3 -2.3

    Pinnacle
    OKC 107.0 +1.0 213.5
    PHO 107.5 -1.0

    Seems books and bettors are believing this will be fast paced/high off/low def. Nothing in actual recent performances of either team that really supports that.

    How has your model done in recent days over what the books are putting out there? 25 point difference in a total is huge!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bermax:

    Books just posted OKC@PHO totals. Model's close in spread but totals really off.

    Model
    OKC 93.0 +2.3 188.3
    PHO 95.3 -2.3

    Pinnacle
    OKC 107.0 +1.0 213.5
    PHO 107.5 -1.0

    Seems books and bettors are believing this will be fast paced/high off/low def. Nothing in actual recent performances of either team that really supports that.

    How has your model done in recent days over what the books are putting out there? 25 point difference in a total is huge!!!
     
     
    jkjc
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    Posted: Mar. 29, 2015 - 11:36 AM ET #25

    For injuries you will have to make a manual adjustment, most players are not worth more than a point, but the superstars like Lebron can be up to 5, Curry up to 4.5.  Iguodala and Green last night were probably two total points
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    For injuries you will have to make a manual adjustment, most players are not worth more than a point, but the superstars like Lebron can be up to 5, Curry up to 4.5.  Iguodala and Green last night were probably two total points
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