Posted:
#26
Water.
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If Hamas just stopped firing rockets, Israel would leave them alone.
Posted:
#27
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:
He is wrong for the reasons I stated above. He isnt wrong as to his SHORT TERM observations, but as I said above again..please go back further than 50 years..more like 2500 years and then your context will be proper.
This isnt about the British giving area to Israel or the UN giving area to Israel..it might be to those who side with Israel, but to the majority who do not...neither the British or the UN had the right to do what they did.
Go back much much further to when Israel came in and claimed the land to be theirs..well they claimed that a higher deity/power gave them the land and that is correct to their vantage point. To all others who were there prior it was not correct.
So this has been going on for centuries, thousands of years..there are two sides to this conflict and neither are pure and 100% in the right.
Do you guys not know the long term history of that region? It wont matter what the UN or the British say to those non-Israelis living in the area..as it also would not to YOU if you were of that group.
You can say that about any country or tribe in the history of the world if you go back far enough. That region was no different: The Egyptians, Babylonians, Mesopotamians, Hittites constantly fought in the Ancient Near East and their era's usually overlapped (Asia Minor) and Europeans like the Greeks and Romans (my ancestors) also conquered land in that region.
The essence of the argument, and the video I attached, is Israel is the only Jewish state that exists. There are numerous Arab/Muslim states that exists. Today in 2014 Israel wants peace with their neighbors but all of them want to annihilate Israel.
You see the news. You know the type of people Israel is up against. Hell, in those other countries they are killing each other because of disagreements that may go back 1000 years. The only thing they do agree on is the total destruction of Israel.
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Posted:
#28
I definitely root for Israel against the troglodytes of Hamas. I can still recall the Palestinians partying and dancing in the streets on September 11,2001. And while the Israelis cherish life and do their best to keep their citizens and soldiers safe, Hamas promotes suicide bombings and does their best to rack up as many civilian casualties as possible in order to gain sympathetic support. When Hamas conducts an unprovoked attack against Israel it's like a lobster going after a pot of boiling water.
It's bad enough when Hamas willingly blows up fellow Palestinians during suicide missions, but now the fact that they have started sending donkeys on those missions instead is the final straw for me. 
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Posted:
#29
Quote Originally Posted by canovsp:
You can say that about any country or tribe in the history of the world if you go back far enough. That region was no different: The Egyptians, Babylonians, Mesopotamians, Hittites constantly fought in the Ancient Near East and their era's usually overlapped (Asia Minor) and Europeans like the Greeks and Romans (my ancestors) also conquered land in that region.
The essence of the argument, and the video I attached, is Israel is the only Jewish state that exists. There are numerous Arab/Muslim states that exists. Today in 2014 Israel wants peace with their neighbors but all of them want to annihilate Israel.
You see the news. You know the type of people Israel is up against. Hell, in those other countries they are killing each other because of disagreements that may go back 1000 years. The only thing they do agree on is the total destruction of Israel.
You can say that about any country or tribe in the history of the world if you go back far enough. That region was no different: The Egyptians, Babylonians, Mesopotamians, Hittites constantly fought in the Ancient Near East and their era's usually overlapped (Asia Minor) and Europeans like the Greeks and Romans (my ancestors) also conquered land in that region.
The essence of the argument, and the video I attached, is Israel is the only Jewish state that exists. There are numerous Arab/Muslim states that exists. Today in 2014 Israel wants peace with their neighbors but all of them want to annihilate Israel.
You see the news. You know the type of people Israel is up against. Hell, in those other countries they are killing each other because of disagreements that may go back 1000 years. The only thing they do agree on is the total destruction of Israel.
They were granted this by the UN and the Brits..no other surrounding groups had any say in this matter..not so good for keeping the peace.
Israel has a history of ticking those off around them..dating back to the OT times, so they have and will always have many enemies due to their own causes. I think if you were living there and some third party told you that the land you had as yours for thousands of years is being given to someone else it would make you mad. Both sides want the others wiped out. The OT is full of this fact..and when you act that way towards others, they act that way towards you.
I am not anti-Israel rather stating the obvious that this is more than just about Israel, they are not any more clean than the other parties, they do things which are disgusting..they kill those who they disagree with and have done so for thousands of years.
If you go back as far as we have record you already know that the land they took was never theirs from the start..their prophet led them there and they took that land from someone else..and those same people they took from are still there now.
Point is that this one sided pro-Israel stuff is not accurate and their actions and behavior are not perfect and they bring much of this on themselves.
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Posted:
#31
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:
They were granted this by the UN and the Brits..no other surrounding groups had any say in this matter..not so good for keeping the peace.
Israel has a history of ticking those off around them..dating back to the OT times, so they have and will always have many enemies due to their own causes. I think if you were living there and some third party told you that the land you had as yours for thousands of years is being given to someone else it would make you mad. Both sides want the others wiped out. The OT is full of this fact..and when you act that way towards others, they act that way towards you.
I am not anti-Israel rather stating the obvious that this is more than just about Israel, they are not any more clean than the other parties, they do things which are disgusting..they kill those who they disagree with and have done so for thousands of years.
If you go back as far as we have record you already know that the land they took was never theirs from the start..their prophet led them there and they took that land from someone else..and those same people they took from are still there now.
Point is that this one sided pro-Israel stuff is not accurate and their actions and behavior are not perfect and they bring much of this on themselves.
So should we all leave this country and give it back to the American Indians??
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Posted:
#32
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:
I am not anti-Israel rather stating the obvious that this is more than just about Israel, they are not any more clean than the other parties, they do things which are disgusting.
Do they sacrifice their own citizens for the possibility of political gain?
Do they launch unprovoked attacks against Hamas/Palestine?
Do they blow up donkeys?
Can you explain why Hamas started firing rockets last month during a peaceful period?
Please tell us what their motive was.
It is true that both parties contribute to the rising hostilities, but they are far from being equally dirty in this current war. The fact that you claim that they are is proof positive that you are in fact anti-Israel.
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Posted:
#33
Quote Originally Posted by JEFFMARKETCAP:
So should we all leave this country and give it back to the American Indians??
Well the way we treated the native Indians was disgusting and they probably deserve to have title to at least half of this country..
The issue is that outside parties granted statehood without consulting or asking for any approval from all the others who were there before and still living in the region.
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Posted:
#34
Quote Originally Posted by -29-:
Do they sacrifice their own citizens for the possibility of political gain?
Do they launch unprovoked attacks against Hamas/Palestine?
Do they blow up donkeys?
Can you explain why Hamas started firing rockets last month during a peaceful period?
Please tell us what their motive was.
It is true that both parties contribute to the rising hostilities, but they are far from being equally dirty in this current war. The fact that you claim that they are is proof positive that you are in fact anti-Israel.
So this is the first of such a feud right? Because during a "peaceful" period fighting happened then one party is fully in the wrong..and the other party has never taken action during other "peaceful" periods..
Their motives go back thousands of years..pointing out something in the last year and drawing a conclusion is moronic..the results of todays actions are thousands of years of hostilities.
So if the UN came and gave Cuba full ownership of a third of this country, including land which you live in now, how would you feel?
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Posted:
#35
Well said wall street cappers. This thread won't go anywhere and shouldn't be in general discussions but rather in politics. As someone who is half Palestinian and whose family lives in Israel, I can honestly say most of you have no clue about the truth and this cannot be explained in a thread but rather with books from various perspectives.
They are both to blame and the world is stupid to allow such horrific actions occur. Last time I saw this type of horror was back when Bosnia and Croatia were at war.
If this continues, this will escalate and become a global concern. Hopefully they go back to peace talks and stop this madness.
Please don't judge a race because of a few radical folks... I.e. Israel and Palestinians. 9\11 broke my heart and only ignorant idiots cheered.
Peace out.
They are both to blame and the world is stupid to allow such horrific actions occur. Last time I saw this type of horror was back when Bosnia and Croatia were at war.
If this continues, this will escalate and become a global concern. Hopefully they go back to peace talks and stop this madness.
Please don't judge a race because of a few radical folks... I.e. Israel and Palestinians. 9\11 broke my heart and only ignorant idiots cheered.
Peace out.
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Posted:
#36
History means nothing anymore. They can't even agree on that.....heck, people who should be able to be objective cannot.
Nothing changes unless Israel gives up some or all of its land and that is never happening. Which means the rockets will not stop. Look at Israel....they are prepared to do this forever. 
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Posted:
#37
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:
So this is the first of such a feud right? Because during a "peaceful" period fighting happened then one party is fully in the wrong..and the other party has never taken action during other "peaceful" periods..
Their motives go back thousands of years..pointing out something in the last year and drawing a conclusion is moronic..the results of todays actions are thousands of years of hostilities.
So if the UN came and gave Cuba full ownership of a third of this country, including land which you live in now, how would you feel?
So after 18 months of no conflicts and without provocation, the Hamas hierarchy wakes up one morning and decides to kill three Israeli high school students and then commence firing thousands of rockets at Israel for weeks on end and it's okay because Joshua, Caleb, and company crossed the Jordan River in 1300 B.C.? 
Tundra - I don't, If there was anything that I could do to spare the innocent woman and children of Gaza, I'd gladly do it. 
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Posted:
#41
Quote Originally Posted by HutchEmAll:
History means nothing anymore. They can't even agree on that.....heck, people who should be able to be objective cannot.
History means nothing anymore. They can't even agree on that.....heck, people who should be able to be objective cannot.
Nothing changes unless Israel gives up some or all of its land and that is never happening. Which means the rockets will not stop. Look at Israel....they are prepared to do this forever.
That is a good point. My issue is that the majority here side blindly with Israel and have no understanding of others in the region because the media feeds this viewpoint..but if you know the history of the region (most really should, it isnt that complicated) then you would know that Israel brings lots of heat on themselves with their approach, they took the land from others previously living there, they do plenty of under the table actions and it for sure is not one sided as MOST here have erroneously concluded.
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Posted:
#42
Hutch, you're a poor student of history. Israel has given up territory (Gaza Strip), to no avail. And this is last 10 years.
Psst, it's not the Territory, stupid. It's the utter destruction of Israel that the Hamas Terrorists want. Hamas uses the territory distraction as bait which many gobble hook, line, and sinker.
So , how do you negotiate a resolution with Terrorists ? You don't, until they stop firing their rockets at Israel.
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Posted:
#43
Quote Originally Posted by Rush51:
Hutch, you're a poor student of history. Israel has given up territory (Gaza Strip), to no avail. And this is last 10 years.
Psst, it's not the Territory, stupid. It's the utter destruction of Israel that the Hamas Terrorists want. Hamas uses the territory distraction as bait which many gobble hook, line, and sinker.
So , how do you negotiate a resolution with Terrorists ? You don't, until they stop firing their rockets at Israel.
You are looking at the end versus why they got to this point.
I would think if you asked some non-Israel citizens living there I would also expect they consider Israel tactics to be terroristic.
I am more interested in WHY they are so upset, not that they are upset. What caused this to happen? It does not come as inherent that one religious group wants to destroy the other, so what do you think the REASON is they are to this point?
So someone with non-Israeli biases might give additional insight as to why...To me its the way they both fail to co-exist over centuries is why this keeps going on and on and on. It for sure is not one-sided.
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Posted:
#45
Quote Originally Posted by nflcapperletsgo:
Israel paid for the land. People here don't know the history. Oh well.
Israel paid for the land. People here don't know the history. Oh well.
Ahhhh...
So if the UN came and said the Saudi's could pay 20 billion dollars for Texas or N.Dakota and then it is theirs then we have no issues with handing it over and letting it be theirs.
Great logic...
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Posted:
#46
"This isnt about the British giving area to Israel or the UN giving
area to Israel..it might be to those who side with Israel, but to the
majority who do not...neither the British or the UN had the right to do
what they did."
WSC, what was the alternative at that point, let the losers draw the new boundaries from the dissolved Ottoman Empire? Wars often have the post-war conditions dictated by the victors, not by the vanquished.
"Go back much much further to when Israel came in and claimed the land to be theirs..well they claimed that a higher deity/power gave them the land and that is correct to their vantage point. To all others who were there prior it was not correct."
Israel doesn't seem to have this attitude nowadays -- how do I know that? I know that because the al-Aqsa Mosque is still standing in Jerusalem.
Also, doesn't the POV you attribute to the Israelis here exactly mirror the POV of Hamas and other Islamic extremists -- i.e., this holy guy in the sky says this land belongs to followers of (insert my specific sect), and anyone else who claims it is an apostate who should be put to death?
"So this has been going on for centuries, thousands of years..there are two sides to this conflict and neither are pure and 100% in the right."
At least we can agree on that.
WSC, what was the alternative at that point, let the losers draw the new boundaries from the dissolved Ottoman Empire? Wars often have the post-war conditions dictated by the victors, not by the vanquished.
"Go back much much further to when Israel came in and claimed the land to be theirs..well they claimed that a higher deity/power gave them the land and that is correct to their vantage point. To all others who were there prior it was not correct."
Israel doesn't seem to have this attitude nowadays -- how do I know that? I know that because the al-Aqsa Mosque is still standing in Jerusalem.
Also, doesn't the POV you attribute to the Israelis here exactly mirror the POV of Hamas and other Islamic extremists -- i.e., this holy guy in the sky says this land belongs to followers of (insert my specific sect), and anyone else who claims it is an apostate who should be put to death?
"So this has been going on for centuries, thousands of years..there are two sides to this conflict and neither are pure and 100% in the right."
At least we can agree on that.
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Posted:
#47
Quote Originally Posted by Rush51:
Hutch, you're a poor student of history. Israel has given up territory (Gaza Strip), to no avail. And this is last 10 years.
Psst, it's not the Territory, stupid. It's the utter destruction of Israel that the Hamas Terrorists want. Hamas uses the territory distraction as bait which many gobble hook, line, and sinker.
So , how do you negotiate a resolution with Terrorists ? You don't, until they stop firing their rockets at Israel.
I'm not sure the "land for peace" swap deal is realistic because of the reason exactly set forth herein -- Hamas' charter refuses to recognize the right to exist for Israel, so what are the chances that they either (a) want a peace deal or (b) would abide by one that is reached with the PA/Israelis?
I don't see any change in Hamas -- from the Palestinian point, unless they change in their mission or viewpoints, they will never have peace. It's either death, destruction, or annihilation because -- let's be honest here -- there is zero chance that Hamas wins an all-out military confrontation with the Israelis. The sad part is that an all-out military confrontation -- with no regard for civilian casualties (which we all know is fine with Hamas and recent Israeli actions make me wonder if they are fine with it too -- is probably the only thing that would result in a longer-standing peace.
It is nigh impossible to negotiate in good faith when your counterpart doesn't recognize your right to exist at all.
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Posted:
#48
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:
You are looking at the end versus why they got to this point.
I would think if you asked some non-Israel citizens living there I would also expect they consider Israel tactics to be terroristic.
I am more interested in WHY they are so upset, not that they are upset. What caused this to happen? It does not come as inherent that one religious group wants to destroy the other, so what do you think the REASON is they are to this point?
So someone with non-Israeli biases might give additional insight as to why...To me its the way they both fail to co-exist over centuries is why this keeps going on and on and on. It for sure is not one-sided.
This is both an important inquiry and a dangerous approach at the same time. I firmly believe that you should always strive to understand the rationale and motivations for the actions of others. That gives you depth and perspective. However -- you shouldn't always give deference to the reasons for jihadist anger. Why? They will always find something to be angry about.
After 9/11, I told myself I was going to learn as much as I could about the Middle East, so I did. Took courses on it, read books, spoke with people who lived there, etc. etc.. The one thing that I am convinced of? Extremism is the problem no matter its stripe, and extremists will always find a pre-textual justification for their rage and condemnation of those who don't follow their extremist dogma.
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Posted:
#49
kapono,
I am not on either side..rather this is a totally pro-Israel thread as most of them are on this site (which is fine) but the conclusions many draw here are wrong and the logic is faulty.
If we blanket hate "extremists" like people are here we are only making the situation worse..plus IMO Israel has acted the same exact way as the others, just in more devious ways. The way you kill people might be different but the fact that both sides are killing others from the other side is happening.
The media has suckered many into blindly accepting anything there as pro-Israel and anti anything else (I am not saying only Hamas because there are other groups just as ticked off towards Israel too).
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Posted:
#50
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:
kapono,
kapono,
I am not on either side..rather this is a totally pro-Israel thread as most of them are on this site (which is fine) but the conclusions many draw here are wrong and the logic is faulty.
If we blanket hate "extremists" like people are here we are only making the situation worse..plus IMO Israel has acted the same exact way as the others, just in more devious ways. The way you kill people might be different but the fact that both sides are killing others from the other side is happening.
The media has suckered many into blindly accepting anything there as pro-Israel and anti anything else (I am not saying only Hamas because there are other groups just as ticked off towards Israel too).
I'm not on either side either -- I'm on the side of reasonableness, subtlety, and nuance, which means I am hated by both major political camps here in the US.
We SHOULD blanket hate extremists WSC. I don't know any good reason not to. Extremism in whatever form it takes is a dangerous ideology -- I think we have all learned that from history, and if we haven't, we are fools.
I do find it funny how pro-Israeli supporters think the media is sooooo biased against Israel and only shines a positive light on the Palestinians, while the pro-Palestinian supporters think the exact opposite. I guess that is just confirmation bias in action.
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