Ok one man's opinion. Not saying I'm right but I'm bitter. Not a bitter bettor. Because I wagered small potatoes on the race anyway. I'm a bitter handicapper and fan. The following are my thoughts about this derby.
First of all the path Mine That Bird took to get to Churchill is suspicious. Suspicious in that the connections basically hid him in New Mexico. His two year old form doesn't make him impossible to win the Derby, it's those two Sunland Races. They are awful. They would make him a long shot in a N1X at Suffolk Downs on May Wednesday. Did the connections stiff him in New Mexico? Say what you will but the horse was getting action in the windows. IMO he should have been the longest shot on the board. He should have been all of 99-1. If you came up with that horse you got screwed with that mutuel.
Somebody knew though. The horse was getting play. He was lower than four or five horses in the doubles and he was under 50-1 for most of the betting. Someone from somewhere knew this horse was better than what he had showed.
I think it's fair for us to question the Sunland Beyers. Even Advice came out of Sunland with subpar figs. Don't be surprised if they go back and take a longer look at the making of those figures. Not saying they'll be 100s, but maybe they should have been upgraded. The DRF needs to be acountable somewhat to check up on those figs.
Please don't tell me he freaked in the mud either. Yes I know it happens, but I'm not buying it. Most horses who like the slop show talent on the other surfaces. The mud (IMO) was not responsible for that effort.Did Friesan Fire freak in his mud race improving five points? Freaking would have been running an 87. Running a 105 is beyond comprehension. Assuming your not in a barn wise in the ways of the needle.
Like others have said Derby 135 was not good for horse racing. The horse racing industry is in huge trouble with synthetic surfaces amongst other things (but you knew that already). As D Wayne Lukas said, synthetic surfaces will put Gamblers Anonymous out of business because bettors will just give up trying to figure it all out. He claims they'll all go back to dirt at somepoint. I pray he is right. The Derby yesterday didn't help. You don't bring the casual bettor in with such amazingly unpredictable results. Or better yet an impossible result.
Let's call it what it is. This sport is about the gamblers. With out the gamblers the horses don't race, the trainers don't train, the jockeys don't ride and the owners don't own. If this industry keeps changing surfaces, fighting over who broadcasts races amongst all the other BS (like yesterday), increasing take out........
Things are only gonna get worse, and they are pretty bad right now.
On a final note. I wouldn't be surprised if they dig up mud on this derby winner and it's connections. It's all fishy to me. Just as the pick six scandal was fishy with a 1/2/3/4/all/all ticket, this is fishy with this horses path to the race and poor 3YO form. The people at DRF are not dumbells. Steve Crist is a genius. I would bet my next deuce that he has a few reporters sniffing around the barns looking for a story. I'm of the belief they find something. Again, I'm not a "fixed" kind of guy. But I am sticking with "shady."
HB
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To remove first post, remove entire topic.
Ok one man's opinion. Not saying I'm right but I'm bitter. Not a bitter bettor. Because I wagered small potatoes on the race anyway. I'm a bitter handicapper and fan. The following are my thoughts about this derby.
First of all the path Mine That Bird took to get to Churchill is suspicious. Suspicious in that the connections basically hid him in New Mexico. His two year old form doesn't make him impossible to win the Derby, it's those two Sunland Races. They are awful. They would make him a long shot in a N1X at Suffolk Downs on May Wednesday. Did the connections stiff him in New Mexico? Say what you will but the horse was getting action in the windows. IMO he should have been the longest shot on the board. He should have been all of 99-1. If you came up with that horse you got screwed with that mutuel.
Somebody knew though. The horse was getting play. He was lower than four or five horses in the doubles and he was under 50-1 for most of the betting. Someone from somewhere knew this horse was better than what he had showed.
I think it's fair for us to question the Sunland Beyers. Even Advice came out of Sunland with subpar figs. Don't be surprised if they go back and take a longer look at the making of those figures. Not saying they'll be 100s, but maybe they should have been upgraded. The DRF needs to be acountable somewhat to check up on those figs.
Please don't tell me he freaked in the mud either. Yes I know it happens, but I'm not buying it. Most horses who like the slop show talent on the other surfaces. The mud (IMO) was not responsible for that effort.Did Friesan Fire freak in his mud race improving five points? Freaking would have been running an 87. Running a 105 is beyond comprehension. Assuming your not in a barn wise in the ways of the needle.
Like others have said Derby 135 was not good for horse racing. The horse racing industry is in huge trouble with synthetic surfaces amongst other things (but you knew that already). As D Wayne Lukas said, synthetic surfaces will put Gamblers Anonymous out of business because bettors will just give up trying to figure it all out. He claims they'll all go back to dirt at somepoint. I pray he is right. The Derby yesterday didn't help. You don't bring the casual bettor in with such amazingly unpredictable results. Or better yet an impossible result.
Let's call it what it is. This sport is about the gamblers. With out the gamblers the horses don't race, the trainers don't train, the jockeys don't ride and the owners don't own. If this industry keeps changing surfaces, fighting over who broadcasts races amongst all the other BS (like yesterday), increasing take out........
Things are only gonna get worse, and they are pretty bad right now.
On a final note. I wouldn't be surprised if they dig up mud on this derby winner and it's connections. It's all fishy to me. Just as the pick six scandal was fishy with a 1/2/3/4/all/all ticket, this is fishy with this horses path to the race and poor 3YO form. The people at DRF are not dumbells. Steve Crist is a genius. I would bet my next deuce that he has a few reporters sniffing around the barns looking for a story. I'm of the belief they find something. Again, I'm not a "fixed" kind of guy. But I am sticking with "shady."
i kinda agree holy bull. i cant put my finger on it yet. he looked like secretariet flying past everybody and sustained those strides for a long time and winning with ease. he reminded me of days way back when 50,000 claimers were being run at waterford park in place of 2500 claimers. horses lines were horrible and public let horses go off 30 and 40/1. they would win by many. im not a bitter loser myself. it is incredible a trainer 1 for 32 can win the greatest race in horseracing.
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i kinda agree holy bull. i cant put my finger on it yet. he looked like secretariet flying past everybody and sustained those strides for a long time and winning with ease. he reminded me of days way back when 50,000 claimers were being run at waterford park in place of 2500 claimers. horses lines were horrible and public let horses go off 30 and 40/1. they would win by many. im not a bitter loser myself. it is incredible a trainer 1 for 32 can win the greatest race in horseracing.
I'm not going to call fix, but I can agree that it looks funny. I just don't understand how someone could profit from "hiding" this horse at Sunland. I'd like to give partial blame to the figures coming out of there, but WE are the ones that put the weight on them. There was a thread not long ago as to how much we should rely on them.
I hope they find some sort of story behind this thing, because it will give some of us a little closure. Not that I'm staying up at night thinking about it, but I'm just still scratching my head as to how THIS horse did THAT!
I'm still amazed that the pre-Derby interview with Mine that Birds trainer had HIM saying that he probably won't win. <- That struck me as odd since, I'd never heard that from a trainer before. Anybody else hear this?
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I'm not going to call fix, but I can agree that it looks funny. I just don't understand how someone could profit from "hiding" this horse at Sunland. I'd like to give partial blame to the figures coming out of there, but WE are the ones that put the weight on them. There was a thread not long ago as to how much we should rely on them.
I hope they find some sort of story behind this thing, because it will give some of us a little closure. Not that I'm staying up at night thinking about it, but I'm just still scratching my head as to how THIS horse did THAT!
I'm still amazed that the pre-Derby interview with Mine that Birds trainer had HIM saying that he probably won't win. <- That struck me as odd since, I'd never heard that from a trainer before. Anybody else hear this?
Yesterday's race makes me not want to bet the horses anymore and I bet many others feel like me...I lost 300 on the race but that's not why I am mad....I just feel like the time I spent handicapping the race was a complete waste of time and makes me wonder why even bother when something like yesterday happens....Its really strange to to hear owners and trainers saying they were hoping for a Top 6 Finish and they win the damn thing...I am not a conspiracy guy but something seemed funny yesterday
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Yesterday's race makes me not want to bet the horses anymore and I bet many others feel like me...I lost 300 on the race but that's not why I am mad....I just feel like the time I spent handicapping the race was a complete waste of time and makes me wonder why even bother when something like yesterday happens....Its really strange to to hear owners and trainers saying they were hoping for a Top 6 Finish and they win the damn thing...I am not a conspiracy guy but something seemed funny yesterday
Holybull great write up. Yesterdays race was a joke. Not only did we see a 50-1 pull the upset but we saw a massacre. A horse running 82 beyers just blew out top notch horses. First thing I thought was this horse was juiced up. Ya they can test for shit but not everything. The trainer is a scum bag anyway. I sent a text to my buddys looking for a closer that would ride the rail. I didnt even look at this horse because he was so bad. I decided to try mr hot stuff because he was the only one who showed rail moves. I guess I should have checked Calvin Borel but the horse was such a p.o.s. I just pray when I make it to the derby for the first time a horse like this doesnt win. There was absolutely 0 way you could handicap that race and come up with a winner. At least the giacomo year the race was destroyed by early speed and he picked up the peices. Ya he wasnt a great horse but everything fell into his hands. I could understand the event. I lost about 500 and ithurt but I wasnt bitter.
There was no way I could have picked that horse.
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Holybull great write up. Yesterdays race was a joke. Not only did we see a 50-1 pull the upset but we saw a massacre. A horse running 82 beyers just blew out top notch horses. First thing I thought was this horse was juiced up. Ya they can test for shit but not everything. The trainer is a scum bag anyway. I sent a text to my buddys looking for a closer that would ride the rail. I didnt even look at this horse because he was so bad. I decided to try mr hot stuff because he was the only one who showed rail moves. I guess I should have checked Calvin Borel but the horse was such a p.o.s. I just pray when I make it to the derby for the first time a horse like this doesnt win. There was absolutely 0 way you could handicap that race and come up with a winner. At least the giacomo year the race was destroyed by early speed and he picked up the peices. Ya he wasnt a great horse but everything fell into his hands. I could understand the event. I lost about 500 and ithurt but I wasnt bitter.
great points . . . i entirely missed the fact that they had already qualified for the derby, thus there no real reason to expose him and/or his style. i thought the trainer and jockey sounded pretty honest in their post-race interviews . . . the owner, another story, he did not sound very surprised to win. i'm guessing he (and his friends) had a lot to do with the odds only being 50-1.
as you are, i'm not pissed that i lost money, i'm pissed because i just don't see how a derby player could have come to the conclusion that this horse would win. imo, giacomo and charismatic had far superior credentials.
we can talk all we want about birdstone, but his stud fee is 10k, this horse cost 9.5 k . . . while many say this horse has no chance in two weeks, i saw a ton of talent on display from #8 on saturday. someone knew something, and went through some effort to make sure no one else was clued in.
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great points . . . i entirely missed the fact that they had already qualified for the derby, thus there no real reason to expose him and/or his style. i thought the trainer and jockey sounded pretty honest in their post-race interviews . . . the owner, another story, he did not sound very surprised to win. i'm guessing he (and his friends) had a lot to do with the odds only being 50-1.
as you are, i'm not pissed that i lost money, i'm pissed because i just don't see how a derby player could have come to the conclusion that this horse would win. imo, giacomo and charismatic had far superior credentials.
we can talk all we want about birdstone, but his stud fee is 10k, this horse cost 9.5 k . . . while many say this horse has no chance in two weeks, i saw a ton of talent on display from #8 on saturday. someone knew something, and went through some effort to make sure no one else was clued in.
On another site a reputable insider commented that Churchill Downs was incorporating new tougher drug testing methods and procedures, including testing for things not currently being tested for and freezing blood samples.There was a meeting on friday for the trainers detailing the new procedures and only 1 trainer was visibly upset and asking lots of questions. That was as far as he would go, so we are left w/ our own conclusions, ie..Mullins ,Pletcher..the two fast horses who didnt run.
As far as the winner goes , if these new drug rules were in place that kinda kills the juice/move up angle.Also i agree that 50-1 to me was fishy as i agree w/ HB that 100-1 seemed more realistic.
Its hard for me to believe that a trainer w/ the stats that i provided in an earlier post , had the ability to hide a derby winner and put one over on us .Maybe though, anything is possible and they should have the samples to find out, if they want to find out. My answer is still a combonation of fast horses not running, slower horses w/ wide ground losing trips, and the winner "freakin" along w/ a golden rail /rail trip.
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On another site a reputable insider commented that Churchill Downs was incorporating new tougher drug testing methods and procedures, including testing for things not currently being tested for and freezing blood samples.There was a meeting on friday for the trainers detailing the new procedures and only 1 trainer was visibly upset and asking lots of questions. That was as far as he would go, so we are left w/ our own conclusions, ie..Mullins ,Pletcher..the two fast horses who didnt run.
As far as the winner goes , if these new drug rules were in place that kinda kills the juice/move up angle.Also i agree that 50-1 to me was fishy as i agree w/ HB that 100-1 seemed more realistic.
Its hard for me to believe that a trainer w/ the stats that i provided in an earlier post , had the ability to hide a derby winner and put one over on us .Maybe though, anything is possible and they should have the samples to find out, if they want to find out. My answer is still a combonation of fast horses not running, slower horses w/ wide ground losing trips, and the winner "freakin" along w/ a golden rail /rail trip.
not too much of a stretch to see mullins sending IWR east and getting him all cranked up on something not natural. then he scratches in the goddamn kentucky derby i mean come on.
mullins sitting in a meeting with the church people covering the drug testing rules must have been like pete rose sitting in one of this spring training meetings when MLB covers the gambling rules.
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not too much of a stretch to see mullins sending IWR east and getting him all cranked up on something not natural. then he scratches in the goddamn kentucky derby i mean come on.
mullins sitting in a meeting with the church people covering the drug testing rules must have been like pete rose sitting in one of this spring training meetings when MLB covers the gambling rules.
Giacomo's pre derby past performances are ugly, but they probably wouldn't take bets on a match race between him and MTB, because Giacomo would win dinking a beer.
Giacomo was an absolute 50-1. It was correct and I can see it.
MTB is impossible at 99-1, let alone 50-1.
You can say that MTB ran against a weaker field, but that won't carry you far enough to explain his low mutuel and winning like Street Sense.
We haven't heard the last of this.
Here is Giacomo's PPs for your review. Who do you want in the match race?
Giacomo's pre derby past performances are ugly, but they probably wouldn't take bets on a match race between him and MTB, because Giacomo would win dinking a beer.
Giacomo was an absolute 50-1. It was correct and I can see it.
MTB is impossible at 99-1, let alone 50-1.
You can say that MTB ran against a weaker field, but that won't carry you far enough to explain his low mutuel and winning like Street Sense.
We haven't heard the last of this.
Here is Giacomo's PPs for your review. Who do you want in the match race?
I understand the frustration, but cmon fellas this is horse racing. If it was so easy just to go by past races and Beyers we would all be rich.Theres always upsets in big races, so much can happen when you have 19 or 20 horses in a race. The track was off,the field was weak, the pace was quick, he had a trip and a perfect ride, thats all there is too it, it happens,what can you do ??
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I understand the frustration, but cmon fellas this is horse racing. If it was so easy just to go by past races and Beyers we would all be rich.Theres always upsets in big races, so much can happen when you have 19 or 20 horses in a race. The track was off,the field was weak, the pace was quick, he had a trip and a perfect ride, thats all there is too it, it happens,what can you do ??
"The trainer is a scum bag anyway." He was 1 for 22 at Sunland park. Mind that Bird looked like he would have beat Secretariat on Saturday. That took a lot out of me. Tough beat.
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"The trainer is a scum bag anyway." He was 1 for 22 at Sunland park. Mind that Bird looked like he would have beat Secretariat on Saturday. That took a lot out of me. Tough beat.
Ok,1 point shot down,what about the rest??? If it was so easy we would all be rich, bottom line,anyone can win and that was proven,and im happy too. Gives us hope that for a 9500 dollar yearling purchase we can win the derby, awesome :-))))
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Ok,1 point shot down,what about the rest??? If it was so easy we would all be rich, bottom line,anyone can win and that was proven,and im happy too. Gives us hope that for a 9500 dollar yearling purchase we can win the derby, awesome :-))))
According to the numbers you posted, he came home alot faster then Giacomo, 13 lengths faster, hmmmm.Guess the front end was worse then anyone thought this particular day :-))
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According to the numbers you posted, he came home alot faster then Giacomo, 13 lengths faster, hmmmm.Guess the front end was worse then anyone thought this particular day :-))
"Shady" I will agree with but isn't MOST horse racing a little shady? Lucky for me I bet about 20% of what I usually bet on the Derby. I think I will continue to be restrained on the Triple Crown races.
I am following a horse that is 4 for 12. He either wins or runs out by many lengths. Shady? you bet your life. I just want to be there when he hits. He won his last race and paid over $30.
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"Shady" I will agree with but isn't MOST horse racing a little shady? Lucky for me I bet about 20% of what I usually bet on the Derby. I think I will continue to be restrained on the Triple Crown races.
I am following a horse that is 4 for 12. He either wins or runs out by many lengths. Shady? you bet your life. I just want to be there when he hits. He won his last race and paid over $30.
when are you guys gonna learn its horse racing. every day at every track theres upsets.
all you guys that have your little booklets and #'s trying to predict what an animal will do on ANY GIVEN DAY is ridiculous. but hey its a hobby so its kool i get that.
then throw in juiced up horses and you really never know.
goooooooooooooooo longshots$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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when are you guys gonna learn its horse racing. every day at every track theres upsets.
all you guys that have your little booklets and #'s trying to predict what an animal will do on ANY GIVEN DAY is ridiculous. but hey its a hobby so its kool i get that.
then throw in juiced up horses and you really never know.
HolyBull i agree with alot you are saying but up at Woodbine Mine That Bird won 4 races and 3 were Stake Races. Yeah its Woodbine but the horses are not dogs like Fort Erie. The people that bet up here were taking the 8 in every ex, tri, or super box i seen one guy infront of me bet the 8 straight out for 100 dollars plus have him in every ex and tri bet he made! These guys knew something we didn't know. I only took the 8 because i seen him run at Woodbine and i loved the way he closed in the race. I had an 2,5,7,8 ex box and tri box i lost at the wire with Pioneerof the Nile just beating MusketMan i am still sick! I think they may have just hid the horse well at Sunland or maybe the horse loved the slop its just incredible this horse wins at the price he paid! Mine That Bird had a class rating of 92 that was 19 of 20 horses only Desert Party was lower at 86 and that surprised me. I thought Desert Party had a shot to win.
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HolyBull i agree with alot you are saying but up at Woodbine Mine That Bird won 4 races and 3 were Stake Races. Yeah its Woodbine but the horses are not dogs like Fort Erie. The people that bet up here were taking the 8 in every ex, tri, or super box i seen one guy infront of me bet the 8 straight out for 100 dollars plus have him in every ex and tri bet he made! These guys knew something we didn't know. I only took the 8 because i seen him run at Woodbine and i loved the way he closed in the race. I had an 2,5,7,8 ex box and tri box i lost at the wire with Pioneerof the Nile just beating MusketMan i am still sick! I think they may have just hid the horse well at Sunland or maybe the horse loved the slop its just incredible this horse wins at the price he paid! Mine That Bird had a class rating of 92 that was 19 of 20 horses only Desert Party was lower at 86 and that surprised me. I thought Desert Party had a shot to win.
According to the numbers you posted, he came home alot faster then Giacomo, 13 lengths faster, hmmmm.Guess the front end was worse then anyone thought this particular day :-))
Fox please explain this, I'm not following you.
Thanks.
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Quote Originally Posted by THEFOX:
According to the numbers you posted, he came home alot faster then Giacomo, 13 lengths faster, hmmmm.Guess the front end was worse then anyone thought this particular day :-))
HolyBull i agree with alot you are saying but up at Woodbine Mine That Bird won 4 races and 3 were Stake Races. Yeah its Woodbine but the horses are not dogs like Fort Erie. The people that bet up here were taking the 8 in every ex, tri, or super box i seen one guy infront of me bet the 8 straight out for 100 dollars plus have him in every ex and tri bet he made! These guys knew something we didn't know. I only took the 8 because i seen him run at Woodbine and i loved the way he closed in the race. I had an 2,5,7,8 ex box and tri box i lost at the wire with Pioneerof the Nile just beating MusketMan i am still sick! I think they may have just hid the horse well at Sunland or maybe the horse loved the slop its just incredible this horse wins at the price he paid! Mine That Bird had a class rating of 92 that was 19 of 20 horses only Desert Party was lower at 86 and that surprised me. I thought Desert Party had a shot to win.
Thorton I'm not surprised at that at all. I would love to see the handles from Canadian outlets. Probably where most of that money came from. Somebody knew.
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Quote Originally Posted by thornton6:
HolyBull i agree with alot you are saying but up at Woodbine Mine That Bird won 4 races and 3 were Stake Races. Yeah its Woodbine but the horses are not dogs like Fort Erie. The people that bet up here were taking the 8 in every ex, tri, or super box i seen one guy infront of me bet the 8 straight out for 100 dollars plus have him in every ex and tri bet he made! These guys knew something we didn't know. I only took the 8 because i seen him run at Woodbine and i loved the way he closed in the race. I had an 2,5,7,8 ex box and tri box i lost at the wire with Pioneerof the Nile just beating MusketMan i am still sick! I think they may have just hid the horse well at Sunland or maybe the horse loved the slop its just incredible this horse wins at the price he paid! Mine That Bird had a class rating of 92 that was 19 of 20 horses only Desert Party was lower at 86 and that surprised me. I thought Desert Party had a shot to win.
Thorton I'm not surprised at that at all. I would love to see the handles from Canadian outlets. Probably where most of that money came from. Somebody knew.
Thorton I'm not surprised at that at all. I would love to see the handles from Canadian outlets. Probably where most of that money came from. Somebody knew.
I would to and also i just wish Pioneerof The Nile would have let MusketMan and Papa Clem pass him i am still sick! I really thought Musketman had a shot to win the Derby i loved him to win the Derby.
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Quote Originally Posted by HolyBull:
Thorton I'm not surprised at that at all. I would love to see the handles from Canadian outlets. Probably where most of that money came from. Somebody knew.
I would to and also i just wish Pioneerof The Nile would have let MusketMan and Papa Clem pass him i am still sick! I really thought Musketman had a shot to win the Derby i loved him to win the Derby.
You actually kinda got screwed that they didn't look at that stretch run. I'm not saying they should have changed the order of finish, but they certainly should have taken a look.
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You actually kinda got screwed that they didn't look at that stretch run. I'm not saying they should have changed the order of finish, but they certainly should have taken a look.
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