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Casino to Phil Ivey: Our cards have manufacturing defects that you spotted so we won't pay you.

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Posted: #1
https://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/the-turnstile/phil-ivey-british-casino-embroiled-dispute-over-payment-032520482.html

Even when you have an edge against the house, the house always wins...
 
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Posted: #2
No surprise they won't pay the black guy. Am I right ? Can I have an Amen, my brothers in chains ?
 
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Posted: #3

Scal -

I have heard that the casino has evidence (or so they say) that Ivey was involved with the cards being marked.  As to infer that he had something to do with those cards being on that table at that time.

Otherwise - I agree.  I love when casinos say you are "cheating" when you use your brain to count cards, or notice things that can give you an advantage.

I also have heard that he made it fairly obvious what he was doing because he requested that the dealer take the cards for the next hand out of the shoe completely, rotate them, and then put them back in to the shoe before she dealt.

Im of the mindset that the casino needs to be on top of this kind of stuff, and should pay him.  But it will be interesting what comes out.

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Posted: #4
Quote Originally Posted by Getty3:

No surprise they won't pay the black guy. Am I right ? Can I have an Amen, my brothers in chains ?

Why waste your time on this site when you need to be fixin' that air gun that jammed. Ya know, the one ya shoot into cow skulls to put em down 'humanely' ya great American farmer you!
 
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Posted: #5
Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:

Scal -

I have heard that the casino has evidence (or so they say) that Ivey was involved with the cards being marked.  As to infer that he had something to do with those cards being on that table at that time.

Otherwise - I agree.  I love when casinos say you are "cheating" when you use your brain to count cards, or notice things that can give you an advantage.

I also have heard that he made it fairly obvious what he was doing because he requested that the dealer take the cards for the next hand out of the shoe completely, rotate them, and then put them back in to the shoe before she dealt.

Im of the mindset that the casino needs to be on top of this kind of stuff, and should pay him.  But it will be interesting what comes out.


Well if they have evidence of that clearly that is cheating but for god's sake, this is a case where the slot machine 'malfunctioned' and paid a jackpot and they wouldn't pay you except they are saying the 'malfunction' is a card defect.

Bullsh**.

The casino and its dealers need to take responsibility for the fact before the action, not after as you stated in the last paragraph.

I think it goes to court and Ivey settles for something less (never to be disclosed publicly) so the casino can keep on doing this. 

It is a complete joke. That is his money and if the dealer wants to listen to him to rotate cards, that is the casino's employee, not an employee of Ivey.

That game was conducted like any other. Ivey saw an edge and took it. Who wouldn't!
 
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Posted: #6
Poker is a game of tells.

His eyes tell me he likes to hold people hostage in his hidden basements through tunnels under his houses and sh'it




At all times the has freezers with random body parts in em I bet from his random gambling adventures.

He looks like the guy that would be standing over you with butchers gear on if you ever found yourself waking up, strapped to a table.

He is one creep lookin dude
 
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Posted: #7
I guess it goes back to integrity. So you notice an obvious error in the cards so you use your name and status to keep those cards on the table and exploit that defect. That's doing the right thing? If a casino was caught pulling a stunt like this what would happen? If they got caught loading the dice in a craps game. Would the people that have played there be entitled to their money back? He's a cheater plain and simple. The only thing is he got caught after the fact. The casino is partially at fault for allowing it to happen for aslong as it did, but even if you had the suspicion while it was happening they had their hands tied as it's usually not a good idea to piss off a whale in the middle of a game.
 
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Posted: #8
Or if you go to an ATM and notice an obvious error in the coding and you exploit that to keep withdrawing money at will. Is it still your money? I hate when people don't use common sense. You want all these regulations to protect you from businesses from taking your money or defrauding you, but once you see a defect in the system it's all of a sudden ok to exploit that. We have become a society of thieves and immoral pieces of sh*t and that is across the whole spectrum from the Ceo's of billion dollar industries to the maid cleaning the sheets in a sleazy crackhead motel.
 
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Posted: #9
He's a cheater? Devil's advocate all day every day when I make a post. He's comparing cards put in play to an ATM machine giving you extra cash. Ya can't make it up!

If a casino gave you a pair of dice to roll that never came up 7, would you stop your hot streak of 150 rolls, or 1,500 rolls and tell the pit to check the dice just because you suspected that they were loaded? Or would you feign ignorance and say, "I'm just the luckiest guy on the face of the earth!" 

There are gray areas here.

One is, the casino marked their own cards and put them in play!

I for one WILL NEVER tell a casino they are doing something wrong regarding their operations. They are offering a game that has 0% chance of being profitable over the long term and are marketing it as though you can win and win big. It is a 100% certainty they will take all of the gamblers money over the long-term. If they can't properly conduct business when taking people's money, that's on them.

Yes, you chose to play and conversely, they gave you the tools to play.

If their tools are faulty, that sure is hell is not on me and I am not leaving a table because of it.


A society of thieves because of defective cards which result in winning money from A CASINO....this guy is a piece of work. I'll tell ya!!! Laughs and laughs all day long!
 
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Posted: #10
Hey casino, when you went about taking all my money, the way you did it wasn't completely correct and 1 guy out of 1,000,000 actually beat you for what is really, ashtray money to you.

BUT you are in the right. If you can't take my money properly and efficiently, I'll leave the game and tell you about what you did wrong. Hey, where's the ATM? I need some more cash.

Love,
~Bill702 The self-righteous gambler.
 
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Posted: #11
I'm not playing devils advocate here. He used his status to keep a deck of cards in play to exploit that. The casino had little choice until after the fact in which they are taking care of it now. It shouldn't be that hard even for you to figure out what side of morality this falls. 

So you notice a defect in the system you will just continue to exploit it. They make enough money why not so its ok. How is that different then noticing a defect in the ATM again?

Like I said if you found out the casino was loading the dice and it was working against you what would you do? Just take it as you got swindled by a carney and walk away?


 
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Posted: #12

ATM Analogy - FAIL

Sorry, but any Casino that makes the gross mistake of allowing those obviously faulty cards into a High-Stakes game deserves no sympathy.
~~~~~ZOSO~~~~~
 
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Posted: #13
If a casino gave you a pair of dice to roll that never came up 7, would you stop your hot streak of 150 rolls, or 1,500 rolls and tell the pit to check the dice just because you suspected that they were loaded? Or would you feign ignorance and say, "I'm just the luckiest guy on the face of the earth!" 

How many times do you see the casino check the dice? On a roll that long in a regular table you can almost guarantee they will check it during the roll. See that's the thing they switch out cards/dice/dealers on a regular table to ensure this doesn't happen to keep the integrity in the game. Ivey had control over what stays or what goes and that's how he is a cheater. 

So why not go make a device to control the programming in a slot machine? The casino knows that it's possible and they make a lot of money because the percentages are so low on these machines. There would be nothing wrong to go and exploit that. 
 
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Posted: #14
And like I said, would you call the pit over to check the dice if you rolled 150 times without rolling a 7? That is, they might be defective dice the casino themselves provided you.

And how many rolls would it take for you to do so before you did...?

Or would you feign ignorance and take advantage of the aforementioned 'gray area' of responsibility...?

Lets see who's moral with your response....
 
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Posted: #15
Let's assume they checked the dice every ten rolls but this was the pit's first night on the job and he didn't see the defect, and the whole batch was defective.

What is your answer? 

If the casino ultimately found out that the whole batch was defective and tried to claim, let's say, a million you won that night, would you hand it over the next day because it was 'the moral thing to do' after you went home and celebrated and deposited it?

Or would you fight it in court?
 
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Posted: #16

There is no morality in a casino.  They are trying to steal your money, and you are trying to steal theirs.  Is it immoral for them to set up all kinds of games that are deliberately misleading for the player as to their real odds of winning?  Is the average guy at the craps table actually capable of calculating the true odds of rolling a 5 before a 7?  Please.....

 

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Posted: #17
Quote Originally Posted by scalabrine:

And like I said, would you call the pit over to check the dice if you rolled 150 times without rolling a 7? That is, they might be defective dice the casino themselves provided you.

And how many rolls would it take for you to do so before you did...?

Or would you feign ignorance and take advantage of the aforementioned 'gray area' of responsibility...?

Lets see who's moral with your response....
No, of course I wouldn't call the pit boss over. I would have lost money playing the don't come bet knowing statistics haha. The difference here is that I wouldn't have control if those dice stay or go. 

I can tell you with all certainty if I was at a table and noticed the cards were marked I would have said something. I wouldn't sit there and exploit it. I most definitely wouldn't have demanded that they stay in play. 

You can say what you want about casinos or big corporations doing this or that, but the fact is even with your disdain against them it's not ok to steal from them or anyone for that matter. 

The way I see this story going down is the casino ended up figuring out what he was doing. They might not have figured it out right away and was down some money. So they let him keep playing to get more evidence to ensure they get all their money back. There isn't a casino in the world that would want press like this denying someone as big of a name like Ivey their winnings. So that should tell you how much evidence they have in this case. To sit here and pretend Ivey is innocent is a foolish idea.


 
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Posted: #18
Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:

There is no morality in a casino.  They are trying to steal your money, and you are trying to steal theirs.  Is it immoral for them to set up all kinds of games that are deliberately misleading for the player as to their real odds of winning?  Is the average guy at the craps table actually capable of calculating the true odds of rolling a 5 before a 7?  Please.....

 

Are they cheating them out of anything? Or are they playing a game with a defined set of rules that are in their favor? How do they mislead the player with their real odds of winning? I don't see big signs in a casino with the chances of winning at any game. Maybe I've missed those though. 

 What does it matter if an average guy is capable of calculating the true odds of rolling a 5 before a 7? You can find it with a 10 second google search if you're not capable of doing it yourself. 

 
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Posted: #19
Do people really expect to go into a casino and win every time they play? If so, then they're a real stupid bunch. It should be common sense that you're not always going to win. 

Hell, isn't there win/loss reports public record?
 
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Posted: #20
Quote Originally Posted by bill702:

Do people really expect to go into a casino and win every time they play? If so, then they're a real stupid bunch. It should be common sense that you're not always going to win. 

Hell, isn't there win/loss reports public record?

Sounds to me you live your life with the glass is half empty attitude there you ole negative Nancy


 
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Posted: #21
Quote Originally Posted by bill702:

Do people really expect to go into a casino and win every time they play? If so, then they're a real stupid bunch. It should be common sense that you're not always going to win. 

Hell, isn't there win/loss reports public record?



What kind of a question is that???

I expect to win every time I go to the Casino.



Let me ask you this question Bill...

You are playing Blackjack and the player next to you gets paid by the dealer when he should have pushed.  Do you keep your mouth shut and mind your own business, or do you inform the dealer that they made a mistake?


~~~~~ZOSO~~~~~
 
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Posted: #22
Quote Originally Posted by SALTY:


Sounds to me you live your life with the glass is half empty attitude there you ole negative Nancy


No, I'm just a realist. I go there to hopefully win and have a little fun, but to expect to support myself off of it is insane.
 
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Posted: #23
Goose, if it doesn't effect me I won't say anything. Now if he paid me on a push I would say something.
 
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Posted: #24
I think they just don't like black players winning. It's simple math and stereotypical racism on the behalf of the British.

Once the message upstairs to the casino boss that night Ivey was playing, that they had a black guy up millions on table 321. 

Big boss swivels in his chair to the monitors and says we have to watch him and he can't walk out of here with our money! He will just blow our money all on clothes, fancy rides/rims, newports, buying entourages, and making it rain at strip clubs and garbage.

 The black man will have nothing left to gamble other than what's in his pocket in a rubber band. Casinos know their favorite winners are white because we are dumb enough to think they can win more and mostly use winnings to bet more. So the British are just protecting their money by not giving it to a black man. 

Why is that so hard to understand?


 
 
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Posted: #25
Quote Originally Posted by SALTY:

I think they just don't like black players winning. It's simple math and stereotypical racism on the behalf of the British.

Once the message upstairs to the casino boss that night Ivey was playing, that they had a black guy up millions on table 321. 

Big boss swivels in his chair to the monitors and says we have to watch him and he can't walk out of here with our money! He will just blow our money all on clothes, fancy rides/rims, newports, buying entourages, and making it rain at strip clubs and garbage.

 The black man will have nothing left to gamble other than what's in his pocket in a rubber band. Casinos know their favorite winners are white because we are dumb enough to think they can win more and mostly use winnings to bet more. So the British are just protecting their money by not giving it to a black man. 

Why is that so hard to understand?



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