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Brad Gilbert says (Nadal vs Federer)

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Posted: #26
Quote Originally Posted by Delpo:

BG says that if Nadal beats Federer on sunday to complete the career grand slam, that he will no longer accept anyone calling Federer the greatest ever because he would have been dominated so handidly by his closest rival. Also says that if they meet it would be the biggest match in mens tennis history.
To me anyone who cites Nadal's ownage of Fed in the h2h as an argument for him being the best ever is missing one vital, vital factor: The majority of their matches have been on clay.

In a sense the fact that Roger has had success on clay right up until he meets Rafa where Rafa many times has been beaten by other players before even getting to Fed on a hardcourt has worked against him. It is like holding his success against him because everyone knows Rafa was born to win on clay and is the clay GOAT by a mile. Of course he is going to dominate the h2h in that area.

They played two times I believe on indoor fast hardcourts and Rafa did not win a set. If they played mostly on indoor hard this h2h would be even more tilted in the other direction. This is why I never understood people using the h2h to say Rafa is the better overall player when all it proves is that he is the far better clay court player.

There is no doubt in my mind that Peak Fed would beat Peak Rafa on a hardcourt. Fed has done things I have never seen Rafa do. His offense when he is in the zone is simply surreal and since I think great offense beats great defense (outside of clay) I will probably always consider him slightly better.

But Rafa is the best right now by a mile because of superior consistency and will. And he is the favorite should they meet in this final IMO, simply due to his ramped up serve. He does have the potential to surpass Fed I suppose but there is no doubt which of them has better offense and likewise no doubt which has better defense, so in my mind it is hard as hell to compare them when they are both 100% effective at entirely different brands of tennis.
 
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Posted: #27

BG also said that fish would take out the joker.....

that one didnt pan out too well brad

 
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Posted: #28
Quote Originally Posted by TennisCapper:

Also Delpo of the 21 matches they played more than 50% of them (12) were on Clay and everyone has already tagged Nadal as the best Claycourter ever, including Federer and Roddick in different circumstances...
If you take the 10-2 in favor of Nadal on Clay that leaves us with 5-4 Federer in all the other surfaces...


This, this, this.
 
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Posted: #29
btw if Sampras played Nadal 12 times on clay he would not have won once.... but the thing is Sampras would have bowed out early in the clay events and people would not even have this stat to bandy about if they were rivals, because due to seeding they would have only met on grass and in hardcourt events.
 
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Posted: #30

Quote Originally Posted by BurningPlanet26:

To me anyone who cites Nadal's ownage of Fed in the h2h as an argument for him being the best ever is missing one vital, vital factor: The majority of their matches have been on clay.

In a sense the fact that Roger has had success on clay right up until he meets Rafa where Rafa many times has been beaten by other players before even getting to Fed on a hardcourt has worked against him. It is like holding his success against him because everyone knows Rafa was born to win on clay and is the clay GOAT by a mile. Of course he is going to dominate the h2h in that area.

They played two times I believe on indoor fast hardcourts and Rafa did not win a set. If they played mostly on indoor hard this h2h would be even more tilted in the other direction. This is why I never understood people using the h2h to say Rafa is the better overall player when all it proves is that he is the far better clay court player.

There is no doubt in my mind that Peak Fed would beat Peak Rafa on a hardcourt. Fed has done things I have never seen Rafa do. His offense when he is in the zone is simply surreal and since I think great offense beats great defense (outside of clay) I will probably always consider him slightly better.

But Rafa is the best right now by a mile because of superior consistency and will. And he is the favorite should they meet in this final IMO, simply due to his ramped up serve. He does have the potential to surpass Fed I suppose but there is no doubt which of them has better offense and likewise no doubt which has better defense, so in my mind it is hard as hell to compare them when they are both 100% effective at entirely different brands of tennis.

So why doesnt Fed dominate him outside of Clay?

The record outside of clay is 5-4 and 2-2 in non clay slam finals.

 
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Posted: #31

"They played two times I believe on indoor fast hardcourts and Rafa did not win a set"

 

Ya no. This never happened.

 
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Posted: #32

They played twice on carpet indoor... both at the end of the year and Fed did dominate both meetings.

However Nadal is 3-1 on hards over Fed

Nadal is just coming into his prime... I wouldn't be  shocked to see him dominate tennis the next 3 years...just like he has this year.

 
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Posted: #33
Quote Originally Posted by sparty444:

They played twice on carpet indoor... both at the end of the year and Fed did dominate both meetings.

However Nadal is 3-1 on hards over Fed

Nadal is just coming into his prime... I wouldn't be  shocked to see him dominate tennis the next 3 years...just like he has this year.

On carpets in shanghai, hard to tell if thats the same as indoor hards.

Good point. If Federer is so much better on hards then why does he have a losing record to him?

 
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Posted: #34
Quote Originally Posted by Delpo:

On carpets in shanghai, hard to tell if thats the same as indoor hards.

Good point. If Federer is so much better on hards then why does he have a losing record to him?



If Nadal is better than Federer how come he has 5 less Slams since 2005 (year in which Nadal started to win them)? And why Federer won all 4 of them and Nadal still hasn't won US Open?

You seem to think that since Federer is considered to be the greatest he should automatically trash everyone, including Nadal. It doesn't quite work that way, Nadal is by far the greatest Claycourter that ever lived and a fantastic overall player...

Nobody is taking anything away from Nadal (at least I am not) but you seem to be one sided due to your obvious preference of Nadal.


 
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Posted: #35

Quote Originally Posted by TennisCapper:



If Nadal is better than Federer how come he has 5 less Slams since 2005 (year in which Nadal started to win them)? And why Federer won all 4 of them and Nadal still hasn't won US Open?

You seem to think that since Federer is considered to be the greatest he should automatically trash everyone, including Nadal. It doesn't quite work that way, Nadal is by far the greatest Claycourter that ever lived and a fantastic overall player...

Nobody is taking anything away from Nadal (at least I am not) but you seem to be one sided due to your obvious preference of Nadal.


Because Federer was in the heart of his prime during those years and Nadal is basically just entering his right now. Nadal is a better player at 24 then he was at 20. Why hasnt he won the US Open? Why did it take so many years for Federer to win the French? It wasnt like Nadal was playing in every single french open Roger has every played in.

I just find it hilarious how Fed fans spew off things like he would steamroll Nadal on hards etc, but actually has a losing record against the guy on those. I dont think Federer should trash everyone, but when you are considered the greatest ever it does raise huge red flags when you have a pretty decisive losing record (he should be more dominant against him on non clay courts) against the next best player.

Im asking questions but not getting answers. Why does Nadal lead Fed 3-1 on hardcourts?

 
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Posted: #36
Quote Originally Posted by Delpo:

Because Federer was in the heart of his prime during those years and Nadal is basically just entering his right now. Nadal is a better player at 24 then he was at 20. Why hasnt he won the US Open? Why did it take so many years for Federer to win the French? It wasnt like Nadal was playing in every single french open Roger has every played in.

I just find it hilarious how Fed fans spew off things like he would steamroll Nadal on hards etc, but actually has a losing record against the guy on those. I dont think Federer should trash everyone, but when you are considered the greatest ever it does raise huge red flags when you have a pretty decisive losing record (he should be more dominant against him on non clay courts) against the next best player.

Im asking questions but not getting answers. Why does Nadal lead Fed 3-1 on hardcourts?



Nadal is an awful matchup for Federer, because with his slices he just pounds his one handed backhand and dictates all the rallies. This is why Nadal has an advantage over Federer and this is why the h2h is in his favor. But then again, outside of Clay it's 5-4 Federer, you can break it down the way you want to, for example I could say that Federer has more wins Indoor and on Grass, would that make a big difference?
Federer reached 3 finals at RG before winning it, Nadal's best result at the US Open is a Semifinal.



 
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Posted: #37
Also Delpo, just out of curiosity, let's say Federer beats Nadal in the final at this US Open, therefore gains one GS victory over him and cuts the h2h lead, would this influence your view of the matter?
If so by how much?


 
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Posted: #38
Quote Originally Posted by sparty444:

They played twice on carpet indoor... both at the end of the year and Fed did dominate both meetings.

However Nadal is 3-1 on hards over Fed

Nadal is just coming into his prime... I wouldn't be  shocked to see him dominate tennis the next 3 years...just like he has this year.

My point exactly. Let them meet on those surfaces 10 more times (for 12 total, to match their clay meetings) and see where the h2h stands.

DelPo do you seriously think Rafa is better on a hardcourt than Fed? Really? Because that would be ridiculous as hell IMO. And if you agree Fed is better on hard then to me you just have to admit that there is no real way to compare them. Fed is real good on clay but Rafa is the best ever. Rafa is solid on a hardcourt but Fed is the best ever there. That is how I see it and therefore it is impossible to compare them directly overall.

Two of the four slams are on hard.... but the clay one is Rafa's and the grass seems so slow the second week that I favor him there too. So in half the slams I think Rafa is the fave and the other half I favor Fed. Not that Fed will dominate much longer at HC slams IMO.

I also agree that he is a matchup issue for Fed. But this is a game of matchups. Is Llodra really a better player than Simon even though he is like 5-0 head to head over him? Definitely not. Just because you matchup well with someone does not make you a better player. Rafa may be a fave over Fed but put either of them against Del Potro on this surface and I would like Fed's chances much more, for example.
 
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Posted: #39

The point I would make is Nadal is 5 years younger and is just starting to come into the same age range Federer made his move. It doesn't mean Nadal will put up the same results....but I think Nadal's results thus far this year show he could.

Yes Roger is 2-1 on grass...all finals. 8 sets to 6 for Roger....3 French finals with Nadal winning 9 sets and Federer 2 sets. Tally between the two events is 15 to 10 in sets in favor of Nadal.

Add the Nadal win in 5 sets in Melbourne and you have Nadal up 5-2 in major finals with Nadal up 18 to 12 in sets.

Nadal has more Masters series shields than Roger.

Nadal has the individual olympic gold medal as well...which was on a hard court

 

Roger is no doubt the best as things stand right now. Everyone has made solid and valid points...but I guess only time will tell who is better.

The real question would be how many majors Nadal needs to win to be considered the best. Will he need as many majors? 1 less? 1 more?

 

 
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Posted: #40
I agree with you sparty, however just curious, let me ask you, do you think Nadal is better now compared to 2008? Let me remind you that in RG in 2008 he crushed Federer 3, 1 and 0 and that he won Wimbledon against him when Federer was still the Federer we used to know... not today's.

I think to go down the books as number 1 Nadal would first of all need to win US Open (even better if he beats Federer in the final this year) and he would at least need to come close to Federer's slam victories. We all know that's what matters, people don't care about 1000 Events (Federer doesn't either, look at his record in those tournaments...)



 
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Posted: #41
Good points everyone. One of those discussions where there will never be a clear cut answer. Just like who is the greatest QB of all time? What do you judge it on, Wins,Yards,SB rings? Federer. Nadal, Sampras. Top 3 in the last 15 years, no doubt. But clear cut. Right now Fed. If Nadal overtakes him in majors, only then, maybe..... 
 
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Posted: #42
just witnessed one of the most diminating performances of recent memory over the number 5th seed Fed is currently in rare form and untouchable when he's like this. Hope Nadal gets through cos it's gonna be an absolute classic
 
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Posted: #43
oh and Fed in 4 sets if it does pan that way
 
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Posted: #44

Hype.

All these talking heads, including even "Brad Gilbert," work for Vegas.

Would be farking hilarious if the men's final were to be Djokovic vs either Wawrinka or Youzhny.

US Open tourney would cry, CBS would cry, Vegas would laugh as usual.

 
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Posted: #45
CBS and US Open will also cry if neither Venus Williams nor their ultra woman Wozniacki make the final.
 
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Posted: #46
Venus can do it.
 
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Posted: #47

I just hope one day Nadal doesn't test positive for HGH. This just seems like something that will happen one day. As far as him being in Fed's league, he is not nearly the player Fed is. 27 straight semi's, 16 slams, ( he will make it 17, by the way). Bring on Nadal in the finals, Fed is ready to show people he is as good as ever and teach Nadal a lesson.

 
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Posted: #48

Quote Originally Posted by BurningPlanet26:

Venus can do it.

Yes she can.....

 
 
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Posted: #49

Quote Originally Posted by claycourtlesson:

CBS and US Open will also cry if neither Venus Williams nor their ultra woman Wozniacki make the final.

What the Networks want & what the Networks pay for, the Networks get 

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