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    All Forums | Soccer

    World Cup thoughts

    12 Next Last»
    garbagetime
    dmoney1234
    BigDickHertzer
    szhcik
    mr_bollox
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    garbagetime
    garbagetime
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    Posted: Nov. 17, 2022 - 11:04 AM ET #1

    I'm not a huge World Cup bettor...much prefer smaller Cups like the erstwhile Johnstone Paint Pot, or smaller, less-trod-upon leagues like the Netherlands Jupiler or Italy Series B.

    Explaining why requires explaining a little about my approach. I wrote a book about it and signed with an agent last summer, and he's currently circulating it among publishing houses...anyway, fingers crossed.

    My belief is that because closing odds incorporate everything that is known about a match in question — and because bettors' biases are vast in breadth and depth — you can look at the existing record of matches played by the same squad, or within the same league, within a general range of odds, and know where value lies.

    I went down this road because of the poor odds offered on many double-chance bets. I was treading water! But it occurred to me that there must be leagues where underdogs outperform the odds of winning outright or of drawing matches against favored sides.

    I'll give you an example. You'd expect draws to predominate in low-scoring leagues, and when I created a spreadsheet of results in Cyprus, I found that, in fact, big underdogs do take points from the top sides with some frequency. When I looked deeper into the data, I discovered that the lion's share were the work of one underperforming top side: APOEL FC. They're the most storied football club in Cyprus. In their history, they’ve won 28 national championships, 21 cups and 13 super cups. Some seasons are better than others, yes, but during the 10 years since I started tracking the league, they were all good. APOEL won seven consecutive league titles during those 10 years. But here’s something that’s also true about APOEL: They win the league by dominating lesser teams, while their fiercest rivals take a point from them an absurd amount of the time.

    When APOEL are favored at home, but not overwhelmingly — this means they’re hosting other storied clubs or recent title winners, such as Omonia, Apollon, Anorthosis or AEK — they get held to a draw half the time. These are matches in which APOEL are priced roughly between 1.60 and 1.98 and the visitors are priced up to 4.99, meaning the draw is priced anywhere from 3.30 to 3.70. During this decade of dominance, APOEL have won 17 matches at home in that range of odds, and lost 3 — and drawn 19.

    Assume your unit is $25: You lost 20 times betting the draw when APOEL were home against a key rival. Against that loss of $500, you won 19 times at odds of around 3.50: plus-$1,187.50.

    Now, a World Cup doesn't offer a whole ton of data to sift through. Are there overall tendencies? Yes. The first group games see underdogs get more draws against better opponents, whereas the third group games see more outright wins by underdogs? Why? Primarily because the betting market lumps on favorites in general, and in late-round matches specifically, because odds widen as bettors make silly determinations of which sides "have nothing to play for" and which "must win" to improve their position in the knockout rounds. You see this every Cup, like clockwork.

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    To remove first post, remove entire topic.

    I'm not a huge World Cup bettor...much prefer smaller Cups like the erstwhile Johnstone Paint Pot, or smaller, less-trod-upon leagues like the Netherlands Jupiler or Italy Series B.

    Explaining why requires explaining a little about my approach. I wrote a book about it and signed with an agent last summer, and he's currently circulating it among publishing houses...anyway, fingers crossed.

    My belief is that because closing odds incorporate everything that is known about a match in question — and because bettors' biases are vast in breadth and depth — you can look at the existing record of matches played by the same squad, or within the same league, within a general range of odds, and know where value lies.

    I went down this road because of the poor odds offered on many double-chance bets. I was treading water! But it occurred to me that there must be leagues where underdogs outperform the odds of winning outright or of drawing matches against favored sides.

    I'll give you an example. You'd expect draws to predominate in low-scoring leagues, and when I created a spreadsheet of results in Cyprus, I found that, in fact, big underdogs do take points from the top sides with some frequency. When I looked deeper into the data, I discovered that the lion's share were the work of one underperforming top side: APOEL FC. They're the most storied football club in Cyprus. In their history, they’ve won 28 national championships, 21 cups and 13 super cups. Some seasons are better than others, yes, but during the 10 years since I started tracking the league, they were all good. APOEL won seven consecutive league titles during those 10 years. But here’s something that’s also true about APOEL: They win the league by dominating lesser teams, while their fiercest rivals take a point from them an absurd amount of the time.

    When APOEL are favored at home, but not overwhelmingly — this means they’re hosting other storied clubs or recent title winners, such as Omonia, Apollon, Anorthosis or AEK — they get held to a draw half the time. These are matches in which APOEL are priced roughly between 1.60 and 1.98 and the visitors are priced up to 4.99, meaning the draw is priced anywhere from 3.30 to 3.70. During this decade of dominance, APOEL have won 17 matches at home in that range of odds, and lost 3 — and drawn 19.

    Assume your unit is $25: You lost 20 times betting the draw when APOEL were home against a key rival. Against that loss of $500, you won 19 times at odds of around 3.50: plus-$1,187.50.

    Now, a World Cup doesn't offer a whole ton of data to sift through. Are there overall tendencies? Yes. The first group games see underdogs get more draws against better opponents, whereas the third group games see more outright wins by underdogs? Why? Primarily because the betting market lumps on favorites in general, and in late-round matches specifically, because odds widen as bettors make silly determinations of which sides "have nothing to play for" and which "must win" to improve their position in the knockout rounds. You see this every Cup, like clockwork.

     
    garbagetime
    garbagetime
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    Posted: Nov. 17, 2022 - 11:04 AM ET #2

    Anticipating an objection: What is the relevance of Sweden managing a draw against England as a dog of 4.29 in the first group match in 2002 to South Korea's draw against Russia as a dog of 4.59 in the first group match in 2014?

    It's my belief that the odds reflect everything known about the match in question, and that the historical record is a guide. Public perception of those teams' chances was about the same. They were given roughly the same chances to win by the betting public.

    In the Bundesliga, Borussia Dortmund as travelers are almost solely responsible for the league’s tendency for home dogs in the 5.00-5.99 range to get shock wins.

    Now, Dortmunders and their fans around Germany, who get to see most of their matches and are within the local media’s ecosystem, might respond to this by saying, “Of course we know that we lose at F.C. Koln, Wolfsburg and Freiburg all the time, we’ve been doing it for years.” Conventional wisdom holds that the past has no predictive power, but at the same time, there's hard data that shows it.

    What relevance does something that happened 10 years ago have here, today (continues the objector)? The Dortmund players are different from the ones who lost at Wolfsburg in 2013; Jude Bellingham was in middle school. This is football — that was, what, seven managers ago? Surely, Edin Terzic’s tactics are different from Jürgen Klopp’s.

    I argue that Dortmund have a well-established difficulty when playing away, through different managers, different rosters and different football eras, and the losses on away are bunched around the 5.00-5.99 range. Is it random chance, or does the public overrate their chances, year in and year out, against lesser sides? My bets are based more on perception than on any tactical or statistical differences that are already reflected in the odds.

    So, in round one, the live dogs (to get draws) are Senegal, Japan, Tunisia, Morocco, Cameroon, South Korea, Serbia. My expectation would be that two of these seven sides will take a point from the favorites.

    And if you're curious, here are first-group-match results from recent World Cups:

    2018 1 draw of 5; 2014, 1 of 3; 2010, 2 of 5; 2006, 1 of 8; 2002, 2 of 6; 1998, 4 of 6

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    Anticipating an objection: What is the relevance of Sweden managing a draw against England as a dog of 4.29 in the first group match in 2002 to South Korea's draw against Russia as a dog of 4.59 in the first group match in 2014?

    It's my belief that the odds reflect everything known about the match in question, and that the historical record is a guide. Public perception of those teams' chances was about the same. They were given roughly the same chances to win by the betting public.

    In the Bundesliga, Borussia Dortmund as travelers are almost solely responsible for the league’s tendency for home dogs in the 5.00-5.99 range to get shock wins.

    Now, Dortmunders and their fans around Germany, who get to see most of their matches and are within the local media’s ecosystem, might respond to this by saying, “Of course we know that we lose at F.C. Koln, Wolfsburg and Freiburg all the time, we’ve been doing it for years.” Conventional wisdom holds that the past has no predictive power, but at the same time, there's hard data that shows it.

    What relevance does something that happened 10 years ago have here, today (continues the objector)? The Dortmund players are different from the ones who lost at Wolfsburg in 2013; Jude Bellingham was in middle school. This is football — that was, what, seven managers ago? Surely, Edin Terzic’s tactics are different from Jürgen Klopp’s.

    I argue that Dortmund have a well-established difficulty when playing away, through different managers, different rosters and different football eras, and the losses on away are bunched around the 5.00-5.99 range. Is it random chance, or does the public overrate their chances, year in and year out, against lesser sides? My bets are based more on perception than on any tactical or statistical differences that are already reflected in the odds.

    So, in round one, the live dogs (to get draws) are Senegal, Japan, Tunisia, Morocco, Cameroon, South Korea, Serbia. My expectation would be that two of these seven sides will take a point from the favorites.

    And if you're curious, here are first-group-match results from recent World Cups:

    2018 1 draw of 5; 2014, 1 of 3; 2010, 2 of 5; 2006, 1 of 8; 2002, 2 of 6; 1998, 4 of 6

     
    dmoney1234
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    Posted: Nov. 17, 2022 - 11:19 AM ET #3

    Great write-up and insight - seems like you've done your fair share of research even if some may disagree with the rationale.

    By your expectation, putting 1 unit on all of those 7 dogs to draw with odds ranging between 3.05 - 4.40 (average of 3.73), you would return 7.46 units on your 7 unit bet?

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    Great write-up and insight - seems like you've done your fair share of research even if some may disagree with the rationale.

    By your expectation, putting 1 unit on all of those 7 dogs to draw with odds ranging between 3.05 - 4.40 (average of 3.73), you would return 7.46 units on your 7 unit bet?

     
    garbagetime
    garbagetime
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    Posted: Nov. 17, 2022 - 11:39 AM ET #4

    @dmoney1234

     

    Quote Originally Posted by dmoney1234:

    Great write-up and insight - seems like you've done your fair share of research even if some may disagree with the rationale. By your expectation, putting 1 unit on all of those 7 dogs to draw with odds ranging between 3.05 - 4.40 (average of 3.73), you would return 7.46 units on your 7 unit bet?

    Well, something like that, but I wouldn't personally plan to bet all of them. This is funny, and maybe counterintuitive: In my experience you should discard the matches you feel have a good chance of seeing a draw, and be inclined to bet the ones where thinking about clicking "place bet" makes you sick to your stomach.

    In 2018, I felt like Morocco-Iran was a decent draw bet, though by the time the match kicked off Morocco were 2.19 (I only bet against odds-on or lower favorites). I also liked Japan-Colombia. Neither ended in a draw, as both dogs won outright. On the other hand, I never even considered opposing Brazil and Argentina, and as it turned out Switzerland odds rose above 8.00 and Iceland's rose above 10.00, so neither were in my favored range. And, you'll recall, both matches ended 1-1.

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    @dmoney1234

     

    Quote Originally Posted by dmoney1234:

    Great write-up and insight - seems like you've done your fair share of research even if some may disagree with the rationale. By your expectation, putting 1 unit on all of those 7 dogs to draw with odds ranging between 3.05 - 4.40 (average of 3.73), you would return 7.46 units on your 7 unit bet?

    Well, something like that, but I wouldn't personally plan to bet all of them. This is funny, and maybe counterintuitive: In my experience you should discard the matches you feel have a good chance of seeing a draw, and be inclined to bet the ones where thinking about clicking "place bet" makes you sick to your stomach.

    In 2018, I felt like Morocco-Iran was a decent draw bet, though by the time the match kicked off Morocco were 2.19 (I only bet against odds-on or lower favorites). I also liked Japan-Colombia. Neither ended in a draw, as both dogs won outright. On the other hand, I never even considered opposing Brazil and Argentina, and as it turned out Switzerland odds rose above 8.00 and Iceland's rose above 10.00, so neither were in my favored range. And, you'll recall, both matches ended 1-1.

     
    BigDickHertzer
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    Posted: Nov. 17, 2022 - 12:11 PM ET #5

    " In my experience you should discard the matches you feel have a good chance of seeing a draw, and be inclined to bet the ones where thinking about clicking "place bet" makes you sick to your stomach."

     

    Man if this statement isn't the truth. Lol

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    " In my experience you should discard the matches you feel have a good chance of seeing a draw, and be inclined to bet the ones where thinking about clicking "place bet" makes you sick to your stomach."

     

    Man if this statement isn't the truth. Lol

     
    szhcik
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    Posted: Nov. 17, 2022 - 1:04 PM ET #6

    @garbagetime

     same with the horses dude...forget the big meets and scour the undercard....top jockey at a gaff track...trainer two runner blah blah..

     

    but this is the world cup youll be lucky to get real value in any game....this tournie is the greatest tournie in any sport ever..including superbowl and snooker worlds....

    Sweet home ALABAMA
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    @garbagetime

     same with the horses dude...forget the big meets and scour the undercard....top jockey at a gaff track...trainer two runner blah blah..

     

    but this is the world cup youll be lucky to get real value in any game....this tournie is the greatest tournie in any sport ever..including superbowl and snooker worlds....

     
    szhcik
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    Posted: Nov. 17, 2022 - 1:06 PM ET #7

    try the suicide bet of 0-0 on a back to lay...after 20 mins price halves...great twenty minutes and then at 21 mins decisions decisions...makes even the garbage ganes interesting....for us degenerates of course....

    Sweet home ALABAMA
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    try the suicide bet of 0-0 on a back to lay...after 20 mins price halves...great twenty minutes and then at 21 mins decisions decisions...makes even the garbage ganes interesting....for us degenerates of course....

     
    mr_bollox
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    Posted: Nov. 17, 2022 - 5:46 PM ET #8

    1st match in group stages are often draws, no-one wants to lose and have to play catchup, weaker teams will park the bus and play for the draw, top teams may not have acclimatized, got used to the conditions etc.

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    1st match in group stages are often draws, no-one wants to lose and have to play catchup, weaker teams will park the bus and play for the draw, top teams may not have acclimatized, got used to the conditions etc.

     
    matt-e-matticle
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    Posted: Nov. 17, 2022 - 8:01 PM ET #9

    Quote Originally Posted by szhcik:

    @garbagetime  same with the horses dude...forget the big meets and scour the undercard....top jockey at a gaff track...trainer two runner blah blah..   but this is the world cup youll be lucky to get real value in any game....this tournie is the greatest tournie in any sport ever..including superbowl and snooker worlds....

    There is value in every game, it just depends on how good you are at measuring the chances of all participants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by szhcik:

    @garbagetime  same with the horses dude...forget the big meets and scour the undercard....top jockey at a gaff track...trainer two runner blah blah..   but this is the world cup youll be lucky to get real value in any game....this tournie is the greatest tournie in any sport ever..including superbowl and snooker worlds....

    There is value in every game, it just depends on how good you are at measuring the chances of all participants.

     
    matt-e-matticle
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    Posted: Nov. 17, 2022 - 8:01 PM ET #10

    Participants = outcomes.

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    Participants = outcomes.

     
    szhcik
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    Posted: Nov. 18, 2022 - 2:54 AM ET #11

    @matt-e-matticle

     theres value and there is value...betting in running always give you more options...and people taking points on the handicap are loons..who bets a team to lose when you think they might win...

    Sweet home ALABAMA
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    @matt-e-matticle

     theres value and there is value...betting in running always give you more options...and people taking points on the handicap are loons..who bets a team to lose when you think they might win...

     
    szhcik
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    Posted: Nov. 18, 2022 - 2:55 AM ET #12

    andcallme a cnut again...ill wheelie bin yer ass and send u down the falls road in a huns top..ficking rookie...

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    andcallme a cnut again...ill wheelie bin yer ass and send u down the falls road in a huns top..ficking rookie...

     
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    Posted: Nov. 21, 2022 - 10:35 AM ET #13

    Price is hard to ignore for a first-round match.

    Senegal-Netherlands X @ 3.80 (BetUS)

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    Price is hard to ignore for a first-round match.

    Senegal-Netherlands X @ 3.80 (BetUS)

     
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    Posted: Nov. 22, 2022 - 7:17 AM ET #14

    I'll give this another go. Denmark-Tunisia X @ 3.85 (Bovada)

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    I'll give this another go. Denmark-Tunisia X @ 3.85 (Bovada)

     
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    Posted: Nov. 23, 2022 - 7:43 AM ET #15

    1-1, +1.84u

    Swerving on Germany-Japan X in spite of an incredibly good price of 4.80. Much more inclined to get on Belgium-Canada, currently @ 4.28.

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    1-1, +1.84u

    Swerving on Germany-Japan X in spite of an incredibly good price of 4.80. Much more inclined to get on Belgium-Canada, currently @ 4.28.

     
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    Posted: Nov. 23, 2022 - 1:31 PM ET #16

    Belgium-Canada X @ 4.40 (Bovada)

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    Belgium-Canada X @ 4.40 (Bovada)

     
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    Posted: Nov. 23, 2022 - 10:09 PM ET #17

    1-2, +0.8u

    Switzerland-Cameroon X @ 3.55 (Bovada)

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    1-2, +0.8u

    Switzerland-Cameroon X @ 3.55 (Bovada)

     
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    Posted: Nov. 24, 2022 - 7:23 AM ET #18

    1-3, -0.2u

    Uruguay-S. Korea X @ 3.60 (Bovada)

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    1-3, -0.2u

    Uruguay-S. Korea X @ 3.60 (Bovada)

     
    Andalouse
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    Posted: Nov. 24, 2022 - 10:46 AM ET #19

    peace_5

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    peace_5

     
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    Posted: Nov. 24, 2022 - 4:19 PM ET #20

    2-3, +2.45u

    The first round played out about how you'd expect with dogs within the best odds range going 1-2-4. The Saudis' result was unprecedented, and worth mentioning that in the previous six World Cups, there was only one huge dog getting an outright win, so I'd say we're done where that's concerned. 

    The second round is not generally a great one using my strategy, as neither draws nor outright wins by dogs predominate. I'd guess the most likely draw candidates would be Netherlands-Ecuador, France-Denmark, Portugal-Uruguay, Poland-Saudi Arabia...or a better way to say it is that you might see a couple of those four favorites dropping points. I'd be inclined to put Portugal and Poland at the top of my list, but we'll see what the odds do in the meantime.

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    2-3, +2.45u

    The first round played out about how you'd expect with dogs within the best odds range going 1-2-4. The Saudis' result was unprecedented, and worth mentioning that in the previous six World Cups, there was only one huge dog getting an outright win, so I'd say we're done where that's concerned. 

    The second round is not generally a great one using my strategy, as neither draws nor outright wins by dogs predominate. I'd guess the most likely draw candidates would be Netherlands-Ecuador, France-Denmark, Portugal-Uruguay, Poland-Saudi Arabia...or a better way to say it is that you might see a couple of those four favorites dropping points. I'd be inclined to put Portugal and Poland at the top of my list, but we'll see what the odds do in the meantime.

     
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    Posted: Nov. 28, 2022 - 1:33 PM ET #21

    Portugal-Uruguay draw @ 3.45 (Bovada)

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    Portugal-Uruguay draw @ 3.45 (Bovada)

     
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    Posted: Nov. 28, 2022 - 4:19 PM ET #22

    2-4, +1.45u

    Last group matches...If the US remains a favorite of under 2.00, I will be on Iran to win up to 4.30 (they're at 3.98 now; it looks like the rest of the world realizes that Iran are as good as the US, even if the US media don't). Potential draw plays at the moment (assuming odds don't skyrocket) are Australia-Denmark, Tunisia-France, Saudis-Mexico, Ghana-Uruguay, and South Korea-Portugal. Draw rates approach 40% when the underdog win odds get above 4.30 (to about 7.30) in the past six cups.

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    2-4, +1.45u

    Last group matches...If the US remains a favorite of under 2.00, I will be on Iran to win up to 4.30 (they're at 3.98 now; it looks like the rest of the world realizes that Iran are as good as the US, even if the US media don't). Potential draw plays at the moment (assuming odds don't skyrocket) are Australia-Denmark, Tunisia-France, Saudis-Mexico, Ghana-Uruguay, and South Korea-Portugal. Draw rates approach 40% when the underdog win odds get above 4.30 (to about 7.30) in the past six cups.

     
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    Posted: Nov. 28, 2022 - 4:20 PM ET #23

    Outright winners in third group matches during the past six cups:

    Slovakia (6.83) over Italy, 2010
    Denmark (6.72) over France, 2002
    Norway (6.01) over Brazil, 1998
    Ecuador (5.96) over Croatia, 2002
    Saudis (5.10) over Egypt, 2018
     
    Third group match draws, with favorites listed first:
    Chile-Cameroon
    Romania-Tunisia
    South Africa-Saudis
    Switzerland-Honduras
    Netherlands-Mexico
    Switzerland-Costa Rica
    Italy-Mexico
    Portugal-Iran
    England-Nigeria
    Argentina-Sweden
    France-Ecuador
    England-Costa Rica
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    Outright winners in third group matches during the past six cups:

    Slovakia (6.83) over Italy, 2010
    Denmark (6.72) over France, 2002
    Norway (6.01) over Brazil, 1998
    Ecuador (5.96) over Croatia, 2002
    Saudis (5.10) over Egypt, 2018
     
    Third group match draws, with favorites listed first:
    Chile-Cameroon
    Romania-Tunisia
    South Africa-Saudis
    Switzerland-Honduras
    Netherlands-Mexico
    Switzerland-Costa Rica
    Italy-Mexico
    Portugal-Iran
    England-Nigeria
    Argentina-Sweden
    France-Ecuador
    England-Costa Rica
     
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    Posted: Nov. 28, 2022 - 4:21 PM ET #24

    man this site

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    man this site

     
     
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    Posted: Nov. 29, 2022 - 1:54 PM ET #25

    Iran 4.40 @ Bovada

    Moved from 4.20 late.

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    Iran 4.40 @ Bovada

    Moved from 4.20 late.

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