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    All Forums | College Basketball

    Wednesday Hoops

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    nropp11
    pokeherface101
    james0332
    utfootball4
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    nropp11
    nropp11
    Captain
    Participation Meter
    Joined: May, 2006
    Posts: 7963
    Posted: Mar. 21, 2012 - 5:50 PM ET #1

    November: 46-38, +5.20
    November Leans: 39-38
    December: 65-70, -9.45
    December Leans: 67-79
    January: 52-39, +15.80
    January Leans: 40-37
    February: 63-44, +65.90
    February Leans: 56-49
    March: 57-41, +77.15
    March Leans: 34-35


    Pitt/Butler
    I pointed this out about a week ago when Delaware came into Hinkle, so let’s revisit. Butler’s offense sucks, but only in certain situations. And just as in the game where Delaware came in with a defense that doesn’t pressure or force turnovers, Pitt comes in with that same un-intensified defense as well. Here’s Butler’s season point totals against teams who don’t utilize strong pressure defense (using the bottom 100 teams): 

    75
    69
    75
    63
    63
    57

    The 75, 69, 75 in recent games are far different than the 63, 63, and 57 that took place earlier in the year. Why? Slightly different lineup. For a majority of the season Butler went with Stigall in the lineup b/c of his ability to shoot the ball. As of late, that just hasn’t been the case. He’s had an awful year shooting the ball, but the kid is extremely one-dimensional and that’s about all he can do is shoot the 3. So Stevens takes out Stigall, and inserts Hopkins, who sucks just as much from the 3-point line, but his versatility to score from somewhere else is what makes the difference within this offense, and you can see the drastic difference in the 3 games on the season he’s going up against the no-non pressure defense. No settling for shots, get into attack mode, and the offense wakes up. So, this offense should put up some points tonight against a Pitt defense that just doesn’t force turnovers, and uses little pressure, and at the same time sometimes going to a zone (which they probably do tonight to force Butler to hit outside shots). Again, the Butler offense is not all that great, but against a defense like this, I’d be willing to invest in the fact that they put up points. However, and this is where I go in an entirely different direction, I think Pitt scores more. In terms of the spot for Pitt, it really couldn’t set up any better. They’ve just played two super low possession ball games and scored 80+ in both of them against a similar style defense with what they’re expecting tonight. While these two teams come from different conferences, surprisingly the familiarity is there. 

    Let’s imagine a scenario that I’m going to imaginarily make up for giggles. Let’s say in some odd year, we’ll call it 2011, Pitt has a pretty good year and ends the year with something like a 27-5 record. The year is a pretty good year considering how tough the Big East is, so I’m going to give Pitt the #1 seed in the NCAA tournament. As for Butler, they had a pretty good year as well, so let’s give them the #8 seed. Both teams win their first round game, and are set for a pretty good match-up in the 2nd round. Nobody expects Butler to win, and let’s assume again that they’re just coming off a national title loss the previous year and losing their best player to the NBA. Since we are making stuff up here in this little paragraph, I’ll continue along the imaginary path of expecting the unexpected. Eight seed matches up with the one seed pretty well, and it’s a great ball game. We can skip the first half of this make-believe scenario, let’s just go to one of those wild endings that I never see happen. Stay with me here, it’s going to be so made up and sound so awkward that it may actually happen one of these days. Butler plays well, well enough to make a basket with about 2 seconds left to take a lead. Since I’m taking the over here in this match-up, we’ll call the score 70-69 and to this point the game has only gone to 57 possessions. So, we got Butler with a lead, and Pitt has the ball with 2 seconds. Let’s run down the court and try a half court shot, but before Pitt can get the shot off, they’re fouled! For the sake of an exciting finish, Pitt makes the first free throw, but they miss the second! Butler’s best big man pulls down the rebound, and we have a whistle! Butler must be calling timeout, right? Did they get the timeout? Oh man, the ref called a foul while Butler rebounded the basketball in a tie game! Butler makes the first free throw for a one-point lead and misses the second on purpose to give Butler the win. Wanna know how I come up with this stuff...
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    November: 46-38, +5.20
    November Leans: 39-38
    December: 65-70, -9.45
    December Leans: 67-79
    January: 52-39, +15.80
    January Leans: 40-37
    February: 63-44, +65.90
    February Leans: 56-49
    March: 57-41, +77.15
    March Leans: 34-35


    Pitt/Butler
    I pointed this out about a week ago when Delaware came into Hinkle, so let’s revisit. Butler’s offense sucks, but only in certain situations. And just as in the game where Delaware came in with a defense that doesn’t pressure or force turnovers, Pitt comes in with that same un-intensified defense as well. Here’s Butler’s season point totals against teams who don’t utilize strong pressure defense (using the bottom 100 teams): 

    75
    69
    75
    63
    63
    57

    The 75, 69, 75 in recent games are far different than the 63, 63, and 57 that took place earlier in the year. Why? Slightly different lineup. For a majority of the season Butler went with Stigall in the lineup b/c of his ability to shoot the ball. As of late, that just hasn’t been the case. He’s had an awful year shooting the ball, but the kid is extremely one-dimensional and that’s about all he can do is shoot the 3. So Stevens takes out Stigall, and inserts Hopkins, who sucks just as much from the 3-point line, but his versatility to score from somewhere else is what makes the difference within this offense, and you can see the drastic difference in the 3 games on the season he’s going up against the no-non pressure defense. No settling for shots, get into attack mode, and the offense wakes up. So, this offense should put up some points tonight against a Pitt defense that just doesn’t force turnovers, and uses little pressure, and at the same time sometimes going to a zone (which they probably do tonight to force Butler to hit outside shots). Again, the Butler offense is not all that great, but against a defense like this, I’d be willing to invest in the fact that they put up points. However, and this is where I go in an entirely different direction, I think Pitt scores more. In terms of the spot for Pitt, it really couldn’t set up any better. They’ve just played two super low possession ball games and scored 80+ in both of them against a similar style defense with what they’re expecting tonight. While these two teams come from different conferences, surprisingly the familiarity is there. 

    Let’s imagine a scenario that I’m going to imaginarily make up for giggles. Let’s say in some odd year, we’ll call it 2011, Pitt has a pretty good year and ends the year with something like a 27-5 record. The year is a pretty good year considering how tough the Big East is, so I’m going to give Pitt the #1 seed in the NCAA tournament. As for Butler, they had a pretty good year as well, so let’s give them the #8 seed. Both teams win their first round game, and are set for a pretty good match-up in the 2nd round. Nobody expects Butler to win, and let’s assume again that they’re just coming off a national title loss the previous year and losing their best player to the NBA. Since we are making stuff up here in this little paragraph, I’ll continue along the imaginary path of expecting the unexpected. Eight seed matches up with the one seed pretty well, and it’s a great ball game. We can skip the first half of this make-believe scenario, let’s just go to one of those wild endings that I never see happen. Stay with me here, it’s going to be so made up and sound so awkward that it may actually happen one of these days. Butler plays well, well enough to make a basket with about 2 seconds left to take a lead. Since I’m taking the over here in this match-up, we’ll call the score 70-69 and to this point the game has only gone to 57 possessions. So, we got Butler with a lead, and Pitt has the ball with 2 seconds. Let’s run down the court and try a half court shot, but before Pitt can get the shot off, they’re fouled! For the sake of an exciting finish, Pitt makes the first free throw, but they miss the second! Butler’s best big man pulls down the rebound, and we have a whistle! Butler must be calling timeout, right? Did they get the timeout? Oh man, the ref called a foul while Butler rebounded the basketball in a tie game! Butler makes the first free throw for a one-point lead and misses the second on purpose to give Butler the win. Wanna know how I come up with this stuff...
     
    nropp11
    nropp11
    Captain
    Participation Meter
    Joined: May, 2006
    Posts: 7963
    Posted: Mar. 21, 2012 - 5:51 PM ET #2


    ...It actually happened. In one of the wild and wacky finishes to a basketball game that I’ve ever seen to date, Butler came away with a victory. Not just any old fashioned rough and scratchy victory, but a victory over the #1 seed that propelled them into the title game. So, what’s changed this year. Well, gone are Howard and Mack’s combined 46 points from that outing. Both of these teams have struggled this year to a greater degree, one team because of injuries and nothing to play for, and the other because of lack of talent and losing a few key pieces.  If there is one important player that I focus on in Butler in any match-up, it’s Ronald Nored. He’s a huge part within the offensive sets, and he’s one of the best defenders in the country. Unlike the past few games Butler has been a part of, Pitt has experienced how Nored defends. This is going to be nothing new to them. More importantly, when Pitt goes to a zone, Nored really is taken out of the offense and he can’t play at his strengths. Pitt has a decent size advantage at the guard spots in just about every area, and it’s really just a nightmarish match-up for Butler. Do they combat size at the guard and play Stigall a bit more, take a chance at getting worse defensively and offensively, or do they stick with the smaller Hopkins? That’s not the only spot either. Simply put, Pitt has numerous advantages to score here as well within the match-ups and schemes, more-so than Butler against a sagging style of defense. All you had to do with Pitt was make them play for something. They have one of the best back-courts in the country, and while Hinkle is a tough place to win, they’re indeed playing for something tonight. Not just for a chance to play in the best of three CBI championship, but they’re playing for revenge. Better offense wins this one.

    Minnesota/MTSTU
    Initial thoughts here are to side with Middle Tennessee State. Another big program coming in, a much better and much more efficient offense, the bigs to match-up with Minnesota in the paint, but I’m looking elsewhere and going to take a stab at the total. Since losing Ralph Sampson, Minnesota has gone to a more up and down approach that utilizes the guards more frequently, which isn’t necessarily a good thing for this offense, but it pushes the pace which the focus is on tonight. The possession totals aren’t all that impressive since the Sampson injury (67, 62, 67, 64), but the totals in those games came in at 143, 142, 131, and 138. Two of those included overtime games and modified princeton’s, so while the possession totals don’t seem all that great of an advantage here, if you’ve seen the games, the pace has been pretty frenetic. They ran into a LaSalle team that was hung-over from the conference tournament, and a Miami FL team that appeared to not even want to take the court. All in all, the focus is on a more guard oriented lineup pushing the pace with Minnesota. And again, not the greatest of offenses, but they’re at their strength when they can push the pace and use athleticism. In those cases, they will score points. With Middle Tennessee State, it’s becoming increasingly clear that they want to run as well. Both NIT games they’ve been a part of have hit 72 possessions. The Marshall game sailed over the total, and the Tennessee game was about to sail over (it still went over I think), but Tennessee couldn’t find the hoop to end the game. With Middle Tennessee State, you have numerous advantages on the offensive end. One, interior post play is a world above anything Minnesota (without Sampson) brings to the table in terms of defending it if this somehow does come down to a half court game. Two, this MTSTU squad has posted an impressive 1.10 points per possession at home this year. Concerns? Yah, not the greatest of spots. Minnesota’s essentially on their fifth straight road game, third game in a week, and second roady in 3 nights coming off a rather easy victory against a team that just didn’t show up. Middle Tennessee State’s playing their second game in two nights. So, a bunch of concerns, but I just can’t look past the tempo in this one. The only way that Minnesota’s going to be able to compete is if they run, and continue to run, and they have the momentum of doing so coming off a couple similar styles. Combine that with the style that MTSTU likes to go with as well, along with the fact that their bigs are mobile enough and enjoy going up and down, the pace in this one should be pretty fast...
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    ...It actually happened. In one of the wild and wacky finishes to a basketball game that I’ve ever seen to date, Butler came away with a victory. Not just any old fashioned rough and scratchy victory, but a victory over the #1 seed that propelled them into the title game. So, what’s changed this year. Well, gone are Howard and Mack’s combined 46 points from that outing. Both of these teams have struggled this year to a greater degree, one team because of injuries and nothing to play for, and the other because of lack of talent and losing a few key pieces.  If there is one important player that I focus on in Butler in any match-up, it’s Ronald Nored. He’s a huge part within the offensive sets, and he’s one of the best defenders in the country. Unlike the past few games Butler has been a part of, Pitt has experienced how Nored defends. This is going to be nothing new to them. More importantly, when Pitt goes to a zone, Nored really is taken out of the offense and he can’t play at his strengths. Pitt has a decent size advantage at the guard spots in just about every area, and it’s really just a nightmarish match-up for Butler. Do they combat size at the guard and play Stigall a bit more, take a chance at getting worse defensively and offensively, or do they stick with the smaller Hopkins? That’s not the only spot either. Simply put, Pitt has numerous advantages to score here as well within the match-ups and schemes, more-so than Butler against a sagging style of defense. All you had to do with Pitt was make them play for something. They have one of the best back-courts in the country, and while Hinkle is a tough place to win, they’re indeed playing for something tonight. Not just for a chance to play in the best of three CBI championship, but they’re playing for revenge. Better offense wins this one.

    Minnesota/MTSTU
    Initial thoughts here are to side with Middle Tennessee State. Another big program coming in, a much better and much more efficient offense, the bigs to match-up with Minnesota in the paint, but I’m looking elsewhere and going to take a stab at the total. Since losing Ralph Sampson, Minnesota has gone to a more up and down approach that utilizes the guards more frequently, which isn’t necessarily a good thing for this offense, but it pushes the pace which the focus is on tonight. The possession totals aren’t all that impressive since the Sampson injury (67, 62, 67, 64), but the totals in those games came in at 143, 142, 131, and 138. Two of those included overtime games and modified princeton’s, so while the possession totals don’t seem all that great of an advantage here, if you’ve seen the games, the pace has been pretty frenetic. They ran into a LaSalle team that was hung-over from the conference tournament, and a Miami FL team that appeared to not even want to take the court. All in all, the focus is on a more guard oriented lineup pushing the pace with Minnesota. And again, not the greatest of offenses, but they’re at their strength when they can push the pace and use athleticism. In those cases, they will score points. With Middle Tennessee State, it’s becoming increasingly clear that they want to run as well. Both NIT games they’ve been a part of have hit 72 possessions. The Marshall game sailed over the total, and the Tennessee game was about to sail over (it still went over I think), but Tennessee couldn’t find the hoop to end the game. With Middle Tennessee State, you have numerous advantages on the offensive end. One, interior post play is a world above anything Minnesota (without Sampson) brings to the table in terms of defending it if this somehow does come down to a half court game. Two, this MTSTU squad has posted an impressive 1.10 points per possession at home this year. Concerns? Yah, not the greatest of spots. Minnesota’s essentially on their fifth straight road game, third game in a week, and second roady in 3 nights coming off a rather easy victory against a team that just didn’t show up. Middle Tennessee State’s playing their second game in two nights. So, a bunch of concerns, but I just can’t look past the tempo in this one. The only way that Minnesota’s going to be able to compete is if they run, and continue to run, and they have the momentum of doing so coming off a couple similar styles. Combine that with the style that MTSTU likes to go with as well, along with the fact that their bigs are mobile enough and enjoy going up and down, the pace in this one should be pretty fast...
     
    nropp11
    nropp11
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    Posts: 7963
    Posted: Mar. 21, 2012 - 5:51 PM ET #3


    Robert Morris/Fairfield
    Really weird spot for Fairfield, tonight. First, Fairfield isn’t all that accustomed to facing teams with strong undersized physical post play. They guard the interior really well, but it’s more of a statement against how bad MAAC post play is within the conference itself. Second, this is really the first time they’ve had to actually prepare for a team they know nothing about in quite some time. If you look at their postseason experience so far, they have had quite a nice home draw. In the first meeting, they played Yale. What’s significant about this is that Fairfield HC Sydney Johnson just came over from Princeton. He’s familiar enough with what they needed to do to get the job done. In their second matchup of the postseason, they were lucky enough to draw Manhattan, a team they had already played twice on the year, so nothing out of the ordinary there. Now, they have two days to prep against a style that I just don’t know which side is going to give. Think I see a hint of value in Robert Morris based on the spot, just not worth going against Fairfield at home.

    Mercer/Old Dominion
    Old Dominion plays their second opponent from the A-Sun in a 3 day span as they take on Mercer tonight. They just beat SC Upstate by 9, and held them to 56 points in a 71 possession game. How is Mercer different from SC Upstate? Slower, use the post a bit more, but much, much more balanced and better offense. So while this one probably doesn’t come close to the 71 possessions the game hit the other night, I might see a bit more scoring. Just no interest. Mercer matches up pretty well in terms of size at the guard spot, and the perfect type of player to defend Bazemore (Bazemore just went 6/19 against a mirror image in Craig from SC Upstate), but just one glaring weakness with Mercer and it’s their ability to hand the ball over to the other team on a consistent basis. They either make a shot, or turn the ball over, and against a tough physical defense like ODU who gets after teams and pressures them, I can’t trust this Mercer team on the road. Probably a good spot for an under, but ODU’s ability to force turnovers can lead to some easy baskets and a faster pace.

    Nevada/Stanford
    I don't know if Stanford is the right side in terms of value, but the Stanford team that hung a 92 the other night is going up against the same exact style they played the other night, if not a worse defense in terms of how much and often Stanford can score. I'm also concerned with Nevada coming off snails and physical into faster Stanford. Just a lean for me.

    Washington State/Oregon State
    None of these P-12 teams are playing defense, and this one has the possibility of being just that. Just keep in mind in this one, that Washington State's offensive numbers away from home toward the end of the season in conference play were fugly. These two are playing for a fourth time this season, WSU won both regular season meetings and OSU knocked them off in the conference tourney (which was also an entirely slower pace than the first two meetings). 

    Loyola Marymount/Utah State
    Nothing.

    5* Pitt +1.5
    3* Pitt/Butler Over 126.5
    2* Minnesota/MTSTU Over 134

    Lean: Stanford -6
    Lean: Midd Tenn State -3
    Lean: Mercer/ODU Under 128

    GL
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    Robert Morris/Fairfield
    Really weird spot for Fairfield, tonight. First, Fairfield isn’t all that accustomed to facing teams with strong undersized physical post play. They guard the interior really well, but it’s more of a statement against how bad MAAC post play is within the conference itself. Second, this is really the first time they’ve had to actually prepare for a team they know nothing about in quite some time. If you look at their postseason experience so far, they have had quite a nice home draw. In the first meeting, they played Yale. What’s significant about this is that Fairfield HC Sydney Johnson just came over from Princeton. He’s familiar enough with what they needed to do to get the job done. In their second matchup of the postseason, they were lucky enough to draw Manhattan, a team they had already played twice on the year, so nothing out of the ordinary there. Now, they have two days to prep against a style that I just don’t know which side is going to give. Think I see a hint of value in Robert Morris based on the spot, just not worth going against Fairfield at home.

    Mercer/Old Dominion
    Old Dominion plays their second opponent from the A-Sun in a 3 day span as they take on Mercer tonight. They just beat SC Upstate by 9, and held them to 56 points in a 71 possession game. How is Mercer different from SC Upstate? Slower, use the post a bit more, but much, much more balanced and better offense. So while this one probably doesn’t come close to the 71 possessions the game hit the other night, I might see a bit more scoring. Just no interest. Mercer matches up pretty well in terms of size at the guard spot, and the perfect type of player to defend Bazemore (Bazemore just went 6/19 against a mirror image in Craig from SC Upstate), but just one glaring weakness with Mercer and it’s their ability to hand the ball over to the other team on a consistent basis. They either make a shot, or turn the ball over, and against a tough physical defense like ODU who gets after teams and pressures them, I can’t trust this Mercer team on the road. Probably a good spot for an under, but ODU’s ability to force turnovers can lead to some easy baskets and a faster pace.

    Nevada/Stanford
    I don't know if Stanford is the right side in terms of value, but the Stanford team that hung a 92 the other night is going up against the same exact style they played the other night, if not a worse defense in terms of how much and often Stanford can score. I'm also concerned with Nevada coming off snails and physical into faster Stanford. Just a lean for me.

    Washington State/Oregon State
    None of these P-12 teams are playing defense, and this one has the possibility of being just that. Just keep in mind in this one, that Washington State's offensive numbers away from home toward the end of the season in conference play were fugly. These two are playing for a fourth time this season, WSU won both regular season meetings and OSU knocked them off in the conference tourney (which was also an entirely slower pace than the first two meetings). 

    Loyola Marymount/Utah State
    Nothing.

    5* Pitt +1.5
    3* Pitt/Butler Over 126.5
    2* Minnesota/MTSTU Over 134

    Lean: Stanford -6
    Lean: Midd Tenn State -3
    Lean: Mercer/ODU Under 128

    GL
     
    pokeherface101
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    Posted: Mar. 21, 2012 - 5:52 PM ET #4

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    james0332
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    Posted: Mar. 21, 2012 - 5:52 PM ET #5

    Yea but who you pickin?
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    Yea but who you pickin?
     
    utfootball4
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    Posted: Mar. 21, 2012 - 5:53 PM ET #6

    bol.
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    bol.
     
    sportsanalyst
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    Posted: Mar. 21, 2012 - 5:54 PM ET #7

    Hey Neil, do u think Stanford is tired?  Nevada is fresher and have the athletes.  Thanks

    I liked the over too.  thanks
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    Hey Neil, do u think Stanford is tired?  Nevada is fresher and have the athletes.  Thanks

    I liked the over too.  thanks
     
    Catsgot9
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    Posted: Mar. 21, 2012 - 5:56 PM ET #8

    lets roll
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    lets roll
     
    FR3SH-like-UgHH
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    Posted: Mar. 21, 2012 - 6:00 PM ET #9

    superb analysis on the Pitt/Butler match-up
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    superb analysis on the Pitt/Butler match-up
     
    turtleboy
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    Posted: Mar. 21, 2012 - 6:06 PM ET #10

    Pitt +1 @ 3U. lets get the

    Turtle

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    Pitt +1 @ 3U. lets get the

    Turtle

     
    1919
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    Posted: Mar. 21, 2012 - 6:09 PM ET #11

    the books pay tonight for that robbery last night
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    the books pay tonight for that robbery last night
     
    xbaggypants
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    Posted: Mar. 21, 2012 - 6:13 PM ET #12

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    bandit1010
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    Posted: Mar. 21, 2012 - 6:13 PM ET #13

    Great write-up as always Neil.  Thanks for your astute observations.
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    Great write-up as always Neil.  Thanks for your astute observations.
     
    traveller5
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    Posted: Mar. 21, 2012 - 6:24 PM ET #14

    Great stuff as usual nropp- thanks for the insight.

    Just out of curiosity, does the line movement worry you at all? I noticed it went from Butler being a Pick to Butler -1.5 and 81% of the public is on Pitt... I don't know a ton so I wanted to get your thoughts.
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    Great stuff as usual nropp- thanks for the insight.

    Just out of curiosity, does the line movement worry you at all? I noticed it went from Butler being a Pick to Butler -1.5 and 81% of the public is on Pitt... I don't know a ton so I wanted to get your thoughts.
     
    theCOBfather
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    Posted: Mar. 21, 2012 - 6:36 PM ET #15

    GL 
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    GL 
     
    Fortmax
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    Posted: Mar. 21, 2012 - 6:42 PM ET #16

    As usual Neill, your write ups gives a better view of this game !

    Butler without  Mack & Howard  are totally different team from last year.

    I'm with you on this one.

    Thanks for your time & effort.

    Goodluck to all of us !  
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    As usual Neill, your write ups gives a better view of this game !

    Butler without  Mack & Howard  are totally different team from last year.

    I'm with you on this one.

    Thanks for your time & effort.

    Goodluck to all of us !  
     
    cmod123
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    Posted: Mar. 21, 2012 - 6:44 PM ET #17

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    JEG53
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    Posted: Mar. 21, 2012 - 6:46 PM ET #18

    Butler is-2 now,will it go higher?
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    Butler is-2 now,will it go higher?
     
    wonwiththehook
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    Posted: Mar. 21, 2012 - 6:56 PM ET #19

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    DAnewguy
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    Posted: Mar. 21, 2012 - 7:59 PM ET #20

    this minn/mtsu has slowed downnnnnnnn after the first 6 minutes.....it still should probably get to 137....GL
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    this minn/mtsu has slowed downnnnnnnn after the first 6 minutes.....it still should probably get to 137....GL
     
    FFAndersonSucks
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    Posted: Mar. 21, 2012 - 8:12 PM ET #21

    Is this butler game televised? I just put a LARGE wager on it & just realized  can't find the game on TV!
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    Is this butler game televised? I just put a LARGE wager on it & just realized  can't find the game on TV!
     
    evilelvis
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    Posted: Mar. 21, 2012 - 8:21 PM ET #22

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    Pickle98
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    Posted: Mar. 21, 2012 - 10:18 PM ET #23

    Tx you Nropp
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    Tx you Nropp
     
    gollum
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    Posted: Mar. 21, 2012 - 10:18 PM ET #24

    congrats on the 3-0 day
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    congrats on the 3-0 day
     
     
    xbaggypants
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    Posted: Mar. 21, 2012 - 10:19 PM ET #25

    Gambling gods were on our side tonight

    Thanks for the plays!!
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    Gambling gods were on our side tonight

    Thanks for the plays!!
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