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    All Forums | Boxing

    The Williams-Lara decision is among boxing's all-time worst

    Josh_Nagel
    UKCrunch
    LRM704
    rzagza
    DannoDanger
    ...
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    Views: 1059
    Posts: 13
     
    Josh_Nagel
    Josh_Nagel
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    Posted: Jul. 11, 2011 - 1:48 AM ET #1

    Upon further review, the fight stands as poorly called. That is, my assertion that Paul Williams’ majority decision win over Erislandy Lara in their 12-round junior lightweight Saturday in Atlantic City on HBO’s card has to be the worst high-profile boxing scorecard travesty I’ve seen in years.

    And it should be the last. The sports needs to clean up such blatant injustices before casual fans, some of whom already are skeptical, place it alongside professional wrestling in terms of credibility.
    I watched the replay of the fight Sunday morning just to confirm that my perception when watching it live Saturday night wasn’t skewed by comments from the broadcasters or any other factors.

    It looked just as bad, if not worse, upon a second viewing. One judge had it tied, and the other two gave Williams the nod.
    At best, I gave Williams four rounds, and that was with the idea of giving him the benefit of the doubt in the close rounds.

    For those of you who missed it, Williams (who was around a -300 favorite) was trying to make a comeback against Lara (+280) after Williams was knocked out by Sergio Martinez in his previous fight last year. I had never seen Lara, though I heard he was a good prospect, but I tuned in to see Williams, who once looked unbeatable but recently has appeared woefully vulnerable.
     
    The strong and aggressive Lara dominated from the opening bell, repeatedly walloping Williams with an overhand left as if his opponent had stolen something from him. He wobbled and nearly knocked Williams down in the second round, and had him in trouble a couple of other times.

    Williams (40-2, 27 KOs) remained active and threw more punches than Lara, but there was no doubt Lara (15-1, 10 KOs) landed the more punishing blows. It was almost painful to watch.

    Probably nobody watching in person or at home would have argued had the fight been stopped including Williams’ trainer, who conceded during a live in-round interview that his fighter was taking the worst of it.

    HBO analyst Max Kellerman correctly pointed out that this type of prolonged beating for Williams was worse than his KO loss to Martinez, which happened in the second round, because the onslaught of blows could threaten his career and long-term health.

    Among those who agreed was Kellerman’s colleague Roy Jones Jr., and he should know. Jones himself is a poster boy for the long-term effect of such a beating, as he was hospitalized by journeymen such as Glen Johnson and Danny Green in an all-too-long career in which he was denial about his fading defensive skills.

    But as the fight wore on, I got a sick suspicion that the scores were going to be much closer than most ringside viewers anticipated. At the final bell, Williams wobbled to corner, bloody and beaten. A few minutes later, his name was read as the winner.

    What’s so puzzling about these God-awful decisions – Shane Mosley-Oscar De La Hoya II also comes to mind – is how easy a potential remedy would seem. Once the scores are published, the commissioner of the fight’s governing body should sit down with the offending judge or judges, watch the fight round-by-round and ask them exactly what they saw.

    If their answers are insufficient, they should have their payment withheld and their licenses revoked indefinitely, only getting them back after showing prolonged competence in judging amateur fights.

    The HBO guys incorrectly chalked up the bad decision to inexperience on the part of the judges. You don’t have to be Mario Andretti to know it’s not a good idea to drive a car into a wall, and you don’t need to have 50 championship bouts on your resume in order to accurately judge a fight.

    Not to mention a fight that’s as easy to score as Lara’s thrashing of Williams. I’ve judged a handful of college and other amateur bouts, and it’s not that difficult. You take into account clean and effective punching, ring generalship, defense and variable scoring factors such as knockdowns and point deductions for fouls.

    Yes, it’s an inexact science, but that doesn’t make it rocket science. We’ve all seen bouts that were so close that you can’t really argue either way, but there are many more in which the outcome should hold no mystery.

    Even the idea that the title-holder or better-known fighter should get the nod in close rounds has some merit to it, but you can’t flat-out rob a guy. That’s the problem with the Lara-Williams judges; they were so absorbed by their preconceived notions that, by the time they realized Williams was getting obliterated, it was too late.

    That’s a shame, and they should be held accountable. 
    Reply
    To remove first post, remove entire topic.
    Upon further review, the fight stands as poorly called. That is, my assertion that Paul Williams’ majority decision win over Erislandy Lara in their 12-round junior lightweight Saturday in Atlantic City on HBO’s card has to be the worst high-profile boxing scorecard travesty I’ve seen in years.

    And it should be the last. The sports needs to clean up such blatant injustices before casual fans, some of whom already are skeptical, place it alongside professional wrestling in terms of credibility.
    I watched the replay of the fight Sunday morning just to confirm that my perception when watching it live Saturday night wasn’t skewed by comments from the broadcasters or any other factors.

    It looked just as bad, if not worse, upon a second viewing. One judge had it tied, and the other two gave Williams the nod.
    At best, I gave Williams four rounds, and that was with the idea of giving him the benefit of the doubt in the close rounds.

    For those of you who missed it, Williams (who was around a -300 favorite) was trying to make a comeback against Lara (+280) after Williams was knocked out by Sergio Martinez in his previous fight last year. I had never seen Lara, though I heard he was a good prospect, but I tuned in to see Williams, who once looked unbeatable but recently has appeared woefully vulnerable.
     
    The strong and aggressive Lara dominated from the opening bell, repeatedly walloping Williams with an overhand left as if his opponent had stolen something from him. He wobbled and nearly knocked Williams down in the second round, and had him in trouble a couple of other times.

    Williams (40-2, 27 KOs) remained active and threw more punches than Lara, but there was no doubt Lara (15-1, 10 KOs) landed the more punishing blows. It was almost painful to watch.

    Probably nobody watching in person or at home would have argued had the fight been stopped including Williams’ trainer, who conceded during a live in-round interview that his fighter was taking the worst of it.

    HBO analyst Max Kellerman correctly pointed out that this type of prolonged beating for Williams was worse than his KO loss to Martinez, which happened in the second round, because the onslaught of blows could threaten his career and long-term health.

    Among those who agreed was Kellerman’s colleague Roy Jones Jr., and he should know. Jones himself is a poster boy for the long-term effect of such a beating, as he was hospitalized by journeymen such as Glen Johnson and Danny Green in an all-too-long career in which he was denial about his fading defensive skills.

    But as the fight wore on, I got a sick suspicion that the scores were going to be much closer than most ringside viewers anticipated. At the final bell, Williams wobbled to corner, bloody and beaten. A few minutes later, his name was read as the winner.

    What’s so puzzling about these God-awful decisions – Shane Mosley-Oscar De La Hoya II also comes to mind – is how easy a potential remedy would seem. Once the scores are published, the commissioner of the fight’s governing body should sit down with the offending judge or judges, watch the fight round-by-round and ask them exactly what they saw.

    If their answers are insufficient, they should have their payment withheld and their licenses revoked indefinitely, only getting them back after showing prolonged competence in judging amateur fights.

    The HBO guys incorrectly chalked up the bad decision to inexperience on the part of the judges. You don’t have to be Mario Andretti to know it’s not a good idea to drive a car into a wall, and you don’t need to have 50 championship bouts on your resume in order to accurately judge a fight.

    Not to mention a fight that’s as easy to score as Lara’s thrashing of Williams. I’ve judged a handful of college and other amateur bouts, and it’s not that difficult. You take into account clean and effective punching, ring generalship, defense and variable scoring factors such as knockdowns and point deductions for fouls.

    Yes, it’s an inexact science, but that doesn’t make it rocket science. We’ve all seen bouts that were so close that you can’t really argue either way, but there are many more in which the outcome should hold no mystery.

    Even the idea that the title-holder or better-known fighter should get the nod in close rounds has some merit to it, but you can’t flat-out rob a guy. That’s the problem with the Lara-Williams judges; they were so absorbed by their preconceived notions that, by the time they realized Williams was getting obliterated, it was too late.

    That’s a shame, and they should be held accountable. 
     
    UKCrunch
    UKCrunch
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    Posted: Jul. 11, 2011 - 1:22 PM ET #2

    Nice article, Josh. I'd like to say it's the huge amounts of money involved in pro boxing that is the catalyst for these shocking decisions. But, you get just as many, if not more, of these unbelievable decisions in the amateur ring. We've even seen some very odd outcomes at the Olympics, which has a very different and much more transparent scoring system. I can only assume that objectivity as a boxing judge is very difficult to achieve.

    And the solution!?!?! I wish I knew. Maybe they should get rid of these massive great modern gloves and go back to something much much nearer to bare-knuckle fighting. That way at least, you'd have a lost less contests going to the judges. There's also strong evidence to suggest that long term brain injuries would also be significantly reduced.
    Reply
    Nice article, Josh. I'd like to say it's the huge amounts of money involved in pro boxing that is the catalyst for these shocking decisions. But, you get just as many, if not more, of these unbelievable decisions in the amateur ring. We've even seen some very odd outcomes at the Olympics, which has a very different and much more transparent scoring system. I can only assume that objectivity as a boxing judge is very difficult to achieve.

    And the solution!?!?! I wish I knew. Maybe they should get rid of these massive great modern gloves and go back to something much much nearer to bare-knuckle fighting. That way at least, you'd have a lost less contests going to the judges. There's also strong evidence to suggest that long term brain injuries would also be significantly reduced.
     
    LRM704
    LRM704
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    Posts: 11548
    Posted: Jul. 11, 2011 - 2:27 PM ET #3

    Great article,  thanks for sharing  
    Reply
    Great article,  thanks for sharing  
     
    LRM704
    LRM704
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    Posts: 11548
    Posted: Jul. 11, 2011 - 2:36 PM ET #4

    I remember I was furious after the Shane - Oscar bout some talking heads were saying that the fan doesn't really know the true scoring of a bout. We know and common sense tells us when the outcomes are pretty much one sided.
    Reply
    I remember I was furious after the Shane - Oscar bout some talking heads were saying that the fan doesn't really know the true scoring of a bout. We know and common sense tells us when the outcomes are pretty much one sided.
     
    rzagza
    rzagza
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    Posts: 10857
    Posted: Jul. 12, 2011 - 2:43 PM ET #5

    I've seen equally bad decisions THIS YEAR.

    Macklin-Sturm
    Matthysse-Alexander

    None of these hold a candle to Lewis-Holyfield I, Foreman-Briggs and Toney-Tiberi.  They are, hands down, the 3 worst I've ever seen.
    Reply
    I've seen equally bad decisions THIS YEAR.

    Macklin-Sturm
    Matthysse-Alexander

    None of these hold a candle to Lewis-Holyfield I, Foreman-Briggs and Toney-Tiberi.  They are, hands down, the 3 worst I've ever seen.
     
    DannoDanger
    DannoDanger
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    Posted: Jul. 12, 2011 - 11:10 PM ET #6

    The worst I was ever on the wrong side of was Santa Cruz vs Casamayor.  Santa Cruz battered him all over the ring.  That was shocking. 
    Reply
    The worst I was ever on the wrong side of was Santa Cruz vs Casamayor.  Santa Cruz battered him all over the ring.  That was shocking. 
     
    walktheline
    walktheline
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    Posted: Jul. 12, 2011 - 11:43 PM ET #7

    Quote Originally Posted by rzagza:

    I've seen equally bad decisions THIS YEAR.

    Macklin-Sturm
    Matthysse-Alexander

    None of these hold a candle to Lewis-Holyfield I, Foreman-Briggs and Toney-Tiberi.  They are, hands down, the 3 worst I've ever seen.

    Macklin-Sturm and Matthysse-Alexander weren't even close to as bad as this one. Most writers, fans, media outlets had Lara winning by at least a 8-4 advantage, or 116-112. A few skeptics had it 115-113, Lara. However, NOBODY had Williams winning this fight other than the judges. They were obviously bought and paid for, and that is sad. 
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by rzagza:

    I've seen equally bad decisions THIS YEAR.

    Macklin-Sturm
    Matthysse-Alexander

    None of these hold a candle to Lewis-Holyfield I, Foreman-Briggs and Toney-Tiberi.  They are, hands down, the 3 worst I've ever seen.

    Macklin-Sturm and Matthysse-Alexander weren't even close to as bad as this one. Most writers, fans, media outlets had Lara winning by at least a 8-4 advantage, or 116-112. A few skeptics had it 115-113, Lara. However, NOBODY had Williams winning this fight other than the judges. They were obviously bought and paid for, and that is sad. 
     
    rzagza
    rzagza
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    Posted: Jul. 13, 2011 - 1:39 AM ET #8

    Pretty much everyone had Macklin winning 8-4 or 9-3 so how was that "not even close"?  Just b/c Williams' fight was on HBO doesnt mean it was any worse.  And the Matthysse fight was only 10 rds so the scores couldnt be as wide.  Who in the hell thought Alexander won that fight?
    Reply
    Pretty much everyone had Macklin winning 8-4 or 9-3 so how was that "not even close"?  Just b/c Williams' fight was on HBO doesnt mean it was any worse.  And the Matthysse fight was only 10 rds so the scores couldnt be as wide.  Who in the hell thought Alexander won that fight?
     
    ghostkid
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    Posted: Jul. 13, 2011 - 3:19 AM ET #9

    Goosen and one of the judges being investigated for fixing the bout. Pretty damning photo evidence.
    https://www.8countnews.com/news/125/ARTICLE/4076/2011-07-12.html
    Reply
    Goosen and one of the judges being investigated for fixing the bout. Pretty damning photo evidence.
    https://www.8countnews.com/news/125/ARTICLE/4076/2011-07-12.html
     
    rzagza
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    Posted: Jul. 13, 2011 - 4:04 AM ET #10

    OK, AND WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER 2 JUDGES?!?  This just seems ridiculous.  They wont be able to prove a damn thing by these pictures.
    Reply
    OK, AND WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER 2 JUDGES?!?  This just seems ridiculous.  They wont be able to prove a damn thing by these pictures.
     
    Michfan15
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    Posted: Jul. 13, 2011 - 11:19 PM ET #11

    Quote Originally Posted by Josh_Nagel:

    Upon further review, the fight stands as poorly called. That is, my assertion that Paul Williams’ majority decision win over Erislandy Lara in their 12-round junior lightweight Saturday in Atlantic City on HBO’s card has to be the worst high-profile boxing scorecard travesty I’ve seen in years.

    And it should be the last. The sports needs to clean up such blatant injustices before casual fans, some of whom already are skeptical, place it alongside professional wrestling in terms of credibility.
    I watched the replay of the fight Sunday morning just to confirm that my perception when watching it live Saturday night wasn’t skewed by comments from the broadcasters or any other factors.

    It looked just as bad, if not worse, upon a second viewing. One judge had it tied, and the other two gave Williams the nod.
    At best, I gave Williams four rounds, and that was with the idea of giving him the benefit of the doubt in the close rounds.

    For those of you who missed it, Williams (who was around a -300 favorite) was trying to make a comeback against Lara (+280) after Williams was knocked out by Sergio Martinez in his previous fight last year. I had never seen Lara, though I heard he was a good prospect, but I tuned in to see Williams, who once looked unbeatable but recently has appeared woefully vulnerable.
     
    The strong and aggressive Lara dominated from the opening bell, repeatedly walloping Williams with an overhand left as if his opponent had stolen something from him. He wobbled and nearly knocked Williams down in the second round, and had him in trouble a couple of other times.

    Williams (40-2, 27 KOs) remained active and threw more punches than Lara, but there was no doubt Lara (15-1, 10 KOs) landed the more punishing blows. It was almost painful to watch.

    Probably nobody watching in person or at home would have argued had the fight been stopped including Williams’ trainer, who conceded during a live in-round interview that his fighter was taking the worst of it.

    HBO analyst Max Kellerman correctly pointed out that this type of prolonged beating for Williams was worse than his KO loss to Martinez, which happened in the second round, because the onslaught of blows could threaten his career and long-term health.

    Among those who agreed was Kellerman’s colleague Roy Jones Jr., and he should know. Jones himself is a poster boy for the long-term effect of such a beating, as he was hospitalized by journeymen such as Glen Johnson and Danny Green in an all-too-long career in which he was denial about his fading defensive skills.

    But as the fight wore on, I got a sick suspicion that the scores were going to be much closer than most ringside viewers anticipated. At the final bell, Williams wobbled to corner, bloody and beaten. A few minutes later, his name was read as the winner.

    What’s so puzzling about these God-awful decisions – Shane Mosley-Oscar De La Hoya II also comes to mind – is how easy a potential remedy would seem. Once the scores are published, the commissioner of the fight’s governing body should sit down with the offending judge or judges, watch the fight round-by-round and ask them exactly what they saw.

    If their answers are insufficient, they should have their payment withheld and their licenses revoked indefinitely, only getting them back after showing prolonged competence in judging amateur fights.

    The HBO guys incorrectly chalked up the bad decision to inexperience on the part of the judges. You don’t have to be Mario Andretti to know it’s not a good idea to drive a car into a wall, and you don’t need to have 50 championship bouts on your resume in order to accurately judge a fight.

    Not to mention a fight that’s as easy to score as Lara’s thrashing of Williams. I’ve judged a handful of college and other amateur bouts, and it’s not that difficult. You take into account clean and effective punching, ring generalship, defense and variable scoring factors such as knockdowns and point deductions for fouls.

    Yes, it’s an inexact science, but that doesn’t make it rocket science. We’ve all seen bouts that were so close that you can’t really argue either way, but there are many more in which the outcome should hold no mystery.

    Even the idea that the title-holder or better-known fighter should get the nod in close rounds has some merit to it, but you can’t flat-out rob a guy. That’s the problem with the Lara-Williams judges; they were so absorbed by their preconceived notions that, by the time they realized Williams was getting obliterated, it was too late.

    That’s a shame, and they should be held accountable. 


    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by Josh_Nagel:

    Upon further review, the fight stands as poorly called. That is, my assertion that Paul Williams’ majority decision win over Erislandy Lara in their 12-round junior lightweight Saturday in Atlantic City on HBO’s card has to be the worst high-profile boxing scorecard travesty I’ve seen in years.

    And it should be the last. The sports needs to clean up such blatant injustices before casual fans, some of whom already are skeptical, place it alongside professional wrestling in terms of credibility.
    I watched the replay of the fight Sunday morning just to confirm that my perception when watching it live Saturday night wasn’t skewed by comments from the broadcasters or any other factors.

    It looked just as bad, if not worse, upon a second viewing. One judge had it tied, and the other two gave Williams the nod.
    At best, I gave Williams four rounds, and that was with the idea of giving him the benefit of the doubt in the close rounds.

    For those of you who missed it, Williams (who was around a -300 favorite) was trying to make a comeback against Lara (+280) after Williams was knocked out by Sergio Martinez in his previous fight last year. I had never seen Lara, though I heard he was a good prospect, but I tuned in to see Williams, who once looked unbeatable but recently has appeared woefully vulnerable.
     
    The strong and aggressive Lara dominated from the opening bell, repeatedly walloping Williams with an overhand left as if his opponent had stolen something from him. He wobbled and nearly knocked Williams down in the second round, and had him in trouble a couple of other times.

    Williams (40-2, 27 KOs) remained active and threw more punches than Lara, but there was no doubt Lara (15-1, 10 KOs) landed the more punishing blows. It was almost painful to watch.

    Probably nobody watching in person or at home would have argued had the fight been stopped including Williams’ trainer, who conceded during a live in-round interview that his fighter was taking the worst of it.

    HBO analyst Max Kellerman correctly pointed out that this type of prolonged beating for Williams was worse than his KO loss to Martinez, which happened in the second round, because the onslaught of blows could threaten his career and long-term health.

    Among those who agreed was Kellerman’s colleague Roy Jones Jr., and he should know. Jones himself is a poster boy for the long-term effect of such a beating, as he was hospitalized by journeymen such as Glen Johnson and Danny Green in an all-too-long career in which he was denial about his fading defensive skills.

    But as the fight wore on, I got a sick suspicion that the scores were going to be much closer than most ringside viewers anticipated. At the final bell, Williams wobbled to corner, bloody and beaten. A few minutes later, his name was read as the winner.

    What’s so puzzling about these God-awful decisions – Shane Mosley-Oscar De La Hoya II also comes to mind – is how easy a potential remedy would seem. Once the scores are published, the commissioner of the fight’s governing body should sit down with the offending judge or judges, watch the fight round-by-round and ask them exactly what they saw.

    If their answers are insufficient, they should have their payment withheld and their licenses revoked indefinitely, only getting them back after showing prolonged competence in judging amateur fights.

    The HBO guys incorrectly chalked up the bad decision to inexperience on the part of the judges. You don’t have to be Mario Andretti to know it’s not a good idea to drive a car into a wall, and you don’t need to have 50 championship bouts on your resume in order to accurately judge a fight.

    Not to mention a fight that’s as easy to score as Lara’s thrashing of Williams. I’ve judged a handful of college and other amateur bouts, and it’s not that difficult. You take into account clean and effective punching, ring generalship, defense and variable scoring factors such as knockdowns and point deductions for fouls.

    Yes, it’s an inexact science, but that doesn’t make it rocket science. We’ve all seen bouts that were so close that you can’t really argue either way, but there are many more in which the outcome should hold no mystery.

    Even the idea that the title-holder or better-known fighter should get the nod in close rounds has some merit to it, but you can’t flat-out rob a guy. That’s the problem with the Lara-Williams judges; they were so absorbed by their preconceived notions that, by the time they realized Williams was getting obliterated, it was too late.

    That’s a shame, and they should be held accountable. 


     
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    Posted: Jul. 14, 2011 - 12:04 PM ET #12

    williams knew he lost!
    Reply
    williams knew he lost!
     
     
    ZOUK
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    Posted: Jul. 15, 2011 - 1:19 AM ET #13

    Oba Carr vs Livingstone Bramble on October 8th, 1991. Oba Carr won a split decision  96-93 | 95-94 | 93-95. It was a hometown fight for Carr and big time robbery. You could have called 911 that night and been justified. I had it 96-91 for Bramble, as he dropped Carr twice in the first round. Carr at 20-0 (14 KOs) was primed as a top contender in the division and considered a good opponent for Trinidad at the time. After the suprising look winning the fight he said "I tried my best against a 31-year old man—It’s good, I think.”

    It was 3 yeas later and Carr had 11 fights after the Bramble heist, and 5 fighters had losing records before he fought Trinidad.  Huh? Yes, and his tune-up before Felix was Antonio Ojeda at 1-5-0. What? Yes, I did say one win. Finally when Carr met Trinidad, Carr dropped Felix in round two, then he got dropped twice in round eight and losing by TKO that round. Notice after Bramble, Carr's management took little chances before getting a payday fight. It was a disgrace to boxing after a decision then the caliber of opponents was a joke. The combined record of the 11 fighters after Bramble to before Trinidad was 163-86-10. Taking away 2 decent of those opponents and the record for nine opponents was 109-82-7, for the opponents win rate was a staggering 57%!

    One of many bad, bad, bad decisions I've seen... Not only by the judges but Carr's corner should feel disgrace. Protecting a fighter and dodging certain opponents to get a nice payday fight before losing is the norm for most. What his entire owner, promoter all the way down to him is just sickening. Five years after losing to Felix he lost to Oscar by TKO in the 11th round.

    Reply

    Oba Carr vs Livingstone Bramble on October 8th, 1991. Oba Carr won a split decision  96-93 | 95-94 | 93-95. It was a hometown fight for Carr and big time robbery. You could have called 911 that night and been justified. I had it 96-91 for Bramble, as he dropped Carr twice in the first round. Carr at 20-0 (14 KOs) was primed as a top contender in the division and considered a good opponent for Trinidad at the time. After the suprising look winning the fight he said "I tried my best against a 31-year old man—It’s good, I think.”

    It was 3 yeas later and Carr had 11 fights after the Bramble heist, and 5 fighters had losing records before he fought Trinidad.  Huh? Yes, and his tune-up before Felix was Antonio Ojeda at 1-5-0. What? Yes, I did say one win. Finally when Carr met Trinidad, Carr dropped Felix in round two, then he got dropped twice in round eight and losing by TKO that round. Notice after Bramble, Carr's management took little chances before getting a payday fight. It was a disgrace to boxing after a decision then the caliber of opponents was a joke. The combined record of the 11 fighters after Bramble to before Trinidad was 163-86-10. Taking away 2 decent of those opponents and the record for nine opponents was 109-82-7, for the opponents win rate was a staggering 57%!

    One of many bad, bad, bad decisions I've seen... Not only by the judges but Carr's corner should feel disgrace. Protecting a fighter and dodging certain opponents to get a nice payday fight before losing is the norm for most. What his entire owner, promoter all the way down to him is just sickening. Five years after losing to Felix he lost to Oscar by TKO in the 11th round.

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