The first three fights between Vazquez vs Marquez had to be one of the best (if not the best) on-going boxing classics ever. The fourth fight at the weigh-in it was very clear Vazquez had many problems and looked flat. Fight time the odds should have been an indicator to anyone following boxing (not that the odds are a true reflection, but this being their fourth fight against each other the fight odds should be accurate). Vazquez being the winner of the last two fights was an underdog on the betting line. After the weigh-in Marquez became a larger favorite. The opening line was Marquez -115 (roughly even) and before the fight the lowest odds I could get was Marquez -155. This was a major indicator for the non-boxing enthusiast. After three wars against each other (not including other wars verse other fighters) and a brief layoff for both before this fight it was clear Marquez still showed a flash of the fighter he was and Vazquez looked and acted flat. The outcome was expected and Marquez won ending any future for a continuation of boxing's greatest rivalry. As they say, all good things must come to an end.
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The first three fights between Vazquez vs Marquez had to be one of the best (if not the best) on-going boxing classics ever. The fourth fight at the weigh-in it was very clear Vazquez had many problems and looked flat. Fight time the odds should have been an indicator to anyone following boxing (not that the odds are a true reflection, but this being their fourth fight against each other the fight odds should be accurate). Vazquez being the winner of the last two fights was an underdog on the betting line. After the weigh-in Marquez became a larger favorite. The opening line was Marquez -115 (roughly even) and before the fight the lowest odds I could get was Marquez -155. This was a major indicator for the non-boxing enthusiast. After three wars against each other (not including other wars verse other fighters) and a brief layoff for both before this fight it was clear Marquez still showed a flash of the fighter he was and Vazquez looked and acted flat. The outcome was expected and Marquez won ending any future for a continuation of boxing's greatest rivalry. As they say, all good things must come to an end.
HoldenRg : Very true. I wasn't listing the very best, but the top rivalries. Barrera vs Morales was a boxing fan technicians dream. Although the Marquez vs Vasquez brought in many other possibilities as one punch KOs, early cuts and swelling because these guys had power. Vasquez had unreal power at that weight and Vasquez had razor cutting hard punches.
HoldenRg : Very true. I wasn't listing the very best, but the top rivalries. Barrera vs Morales was a boxing fan technicians dream. Although the Marquez vs Vasquez brought in many other possibilities as one punch KOs, early cuts and swelling because these guys had power. Vasquez had unreal power at that weight and Vasquez had razor cutting hard punches.
Gatti vs Ward not for a title even, just pride, heart and determation. The first fight was best it had the most action, a knockdown and round 9 was one of best rounds in boxing history. The 3rd Gatti broke his hand, Buddy Mcgirt asked Gatti what to do he said don't stop the fight, he was one handed until it was numb, even then he couldn't use it with full power. Both fighters gave everything they had, Ward had to retire, Gatti won a paper belt, but he was never really the same after their 3 wars.
Gatti vs Ward not for a title even, just pride, heart and determation. The first fight was best it had the most action, a knockdown and round 9 was one of best rounds in boxing history. The 3rd Gatti broke his hand, Buddy Mcgirt asked Gatti what to do he said don't stop the fight, he was one handed until it was numb, even then he couldn't use it with full power. Both fighters gave everything they had, Ward had to retire, Gatti won a paper belt, but he was never really the same after their 3 wars.
cd2010: Nice pick! Gatti vs Ward I: I was at Mohegan Sun visiting a friend and ended up hanging around playing 20-40 Limit Hold'em (unfortunately the biggest game they had going then, and then poker room closed shortly after due to problems). A guy from NY I played with was there and asked me to accompany him to the fight. I was hesitant at first because Ward was a journeyman in his late 30's and I remember 5 years prior he lost to undefeated Zab Judah. Gatti a year earlier got destroyed by Oscar. I didn't expect much and got to see one the greatest fights (rivalries) in boxing history.
cd2010: Nice pick! Gatti vs Ward I: I was at Mohegan Sun visiting a friend and ended up hanging around playing 20-40 Limit Hold'em (unfortunately the biggest game they had going then, and then poker room closed shortly after due to problems). A guy from NY I played with was there and asked me to accompany him to the fight. I was hesitant at first because Ward was a journeyman in his late 30's and I remember 5 years prior he lost to undefeated Zab Judah. Gatti a year earlier got destroyed by Oscar. I didn't expect much and got to see one the greatest fights (rivalries) in boxing history.
Beau Jack vs Ike Williams (4 fight rivalry): One of the funniest interviews on HBO boxing I've seen. They had both fighters commenting about their last bout where Ike lost a tooth and was mad because he said he had a perfect set of teeth. At one point Jack couldn't stand with ropes holding him and Ike asked the ref "What do you want me to do, kill the man?"
Beau Jack vs Ike Williams (4 fight rivalry): One of the funniest interviews on HBO boxing I've seen. They had both fighters commenting about their last bout where Ike lost a tooth and was mad because he said he had a perfect set of teeth. At one point Jack couldn't stand with ropes holding him and Ike asked the ref "What do you want me to do, kill the man?"
Zouk, you're lucky to have went to Gatti-Ward 1 fight, that fight gives me a rush just watching on tv. I seen that Jack vs Williams ending on an HBO documentry, Jack was laying on the ropes, not throwing back and took around 10 punch before the ref stopped it.
Ali-Frazier is probably best all-time, 2 of the greatest fighters ever, 2 undefeated fighters in 1st match-up, the 3rd was a back and forth exchange that the heavyweight division might never see again.
Alot of people forget about Bowe-Holyfield because, Bowe was done soon after, but those were great fights, round 10 of the 1st fight, Bowe hit Holyfield with an uppercut that would have KO'd 99% of the heavyweight division (similiar to Douglas vs. Tyson), Holyfield hung on for dear life until Bowe ran out of energy and by the end of the round Holyfield was winning the second half of that round.
Zouk, you're lucky to have went to Gatti-Ward 1 fight, that fight gives me a rush just watching on tv. I seen that Jack vs Williams ending on an HBO documentry, Jack was laying on the ropes, not throwing back and took around 10 punch before the ref stopped it.
Ali-Frazier is probably best all-time, 2 of the greatest fighters ever, 2 undefeated fighters in 1st match-up, the 3rd was a back and forth exchange that the heavyweight division might never see again.
Alot of people forget about Bowe-Holyfield because, Bowe was done soon after, but those were great fights, round 10 of the 1st fight, Bowe hit Holyfield with an uppercut that would have KO'd 99% of the heavyweight division (similiar to Douglas vs. Tyson), Holyfield hung on for dear life until Bowe ran out of energy and by the end of the round Holyfield was winning the second half of that round.
Beau Jack vs Ike Williams (4 fight rivalry): One of the funniest interviews on HBO boxing I've seen. They had both fighters commenting about their last bout where Ike lost a tooth and was mad because he said he had a perfect set of teeth. At one point Jack couldn't stand with ropes holding him and Ike asked the ref "What do you want me to do, kill the man?"
williams and jack were friends outside the ring, but after wiliams koed bob montgomery in the 6 th round of their second fight, he said after the fight, that he did not get him as good as he wanted too, that he wanted to murder him, Ike was one of the toughest and best lightweights who ever lived. one of my all time favorites, the 40's was the lightweight divisions greatest era, williams proved that he was the best.
Quote Originally Posted by ZOUK:
Beau Jack vs Ike Williams (4 fight rivalry): One of the funniest interviews on HBO boxing I've seen. They had both fighters commenting about their last bout where Ike lost a tooth and was mad because he said he had a perfect set of teeth. At one point Jack couldn't stand with ropes holding him and Ike asked the ref "What do you want me to do, kill the man?"
williams and jack were friends outside the ring, but after wiliams koed bob montgomery in the 6 th round of their second fight, he said after the fight, that he did not get him as good as he wanted too, that he wanted to murder him, Ike was one of the toughest and best lightweights who ever lived. one of my all time favorites, the 40's was the lightweight divisions greatest era, williams proved that he was the best.
In a previous blog of the same topic, I wrote a long essay, I have no desire to do that today, but if I had to pick just one, I can't so I will go with 2, PEP VS SADDLER and ROBINSON VS LAMOTTA
In a previous blog of the same topic, I wrote a long essay, I have no desire to do that today, but if I had to pick just one, I can't so I will go with 2, PEP VS SADDLER and ROBINSON VS LAMOTTA
Robinson vs LaMotta was more like a tv sereies (LOL- in a good way). Bowe vs Holyfield were great as Bowe gave Holyfield his first loss. Bowe was such a good inside fighter for a big man using his weight, Holyfield's game plan was bad where he constantly tried to defeat Bowe at all Bowe's strengths. If he focused on Bowe using more movement and throwing, Bowe would look exhausted near the end and not Holyfield (tired of a 250lbs man leaning on you all fight). Funny you mention Pep as I pulled out the archive for a friend on Pep the last night. Ali vs Frazier, no comment needed! Makes a Rocky film look boring!
Robinson vs LaMotta was more like a tv sereies (LOL- in a good way). Bowe vs Holyfield were great as Bowe gave Holyfield his first loss. Bowe was such a good inside fighter for a big man using his weight, Holyfield's game plan was bad where he constantly tried to defeat Bowe at all Bowe's strengths. If he focused on Bowe using more movement and throwing, Bowe would look exhausted near the end and not Holyfield (tired of a 250lbs man leaning on you all fight). Funny you mention Pep as I pulled out the archive for a friend on Pep the last night. Ali vs Frazier, no comment needed! Makes a Rocky film look boring!
sam langford vs harry wills they fought 18 times, langford vs sam mcvey 14 matches, langford vs joe jeanett 13 fights, because of the color of their skin these me were forced to fight each other over and over, they were too good and too black, so they were shut out of the picture, they had to pay the bills so they did what they had to do to survive, to me SAM LANGFORD is one of the top 3 fighters who ever lived. yet he never received a title shot because of racism, other great rivalries, bob montgomery vs beau jack 2 wins each, charley burley vs holoman williams 3 wins each with 1 draw, zale vs graziano, morales vs barrera, gene fullmer vs robinson, tiger flowers vs harry greb, ketchel vs papke, and how about joe gans vs battling nelson, their first fight was 42 fucking rounds(3 min rounds too) I actually have this fight on tape.and as mentioned ali vs frazier and bowe vs holyfield.
sam langford vs harry wills they fought 18 times, langford vs sam mcvey 14 matches, langford vs joe jeanett 13 fights, because of the color of their skin these me were forced to fight each other over and over, they were too good and too black, so they were shut out of the picture, they had to pay the bills so they did what they had to do to survive, to me SAM LANGFORD is one of the top 3 fighters who ever lived. yet he never received a title shot because of racism, other great rivalries, bob montgomery vs beau jack 2 wins each, charley burley vs holoman williams 3 wins each with 1 draw, zale vs graziano, morales vs barrera, gene fullmer vs robinson, tiger flowers vs harry greb, ketchel vs papke, and how about joe gans vs battling nelson, their first fight was 42 fucking rounds(3 min rounds too) I actually have this fight on tape.and as mentioned ali vs frazier and bowe vs holyfield.
Funny when we talk rivalries and great fighters. For the layman boxing fan that didn't know, Sugar Ray Robinson had an amateur record 85-0 with 69 KOs (40 1st round KOs). He was so dominate at welterweight he stepped up to fight Lamotta (who was roughly 20lbs of muslce bigger) and lost a UD. Two weeks later he beat Jackie Wilson, then one week later fought Lamotta again and won. If you disreard that one loss to Lamotta you are looking at a fighter who at one point was undefeated, or the record was 128-1-2 with 84 KO's. He moved up in weight to find fighters. If combine that with the fact he fought 3 times in 21 days after his first loss against the very best opponents is uncomparable.
Funny when we talk rivalries and great fighters. For the layman boxing fan that didn't know, Sugar Ray Robinson had an amateur record 85-0 with 69 KOs (40 1st round KOs). He was so dominate at welterweight he stepped up to fight Lamotta (who was roughly 20lbs of muslce bigger) and lost a UD. Two weeks later he beat Jackie Wilson, then one week later fought Lamotta again and won. If you disreard that one loss to Lamotta you are looking at a fighter who at one point was undefeated, or the record was 128-1-2 with 84 KO's. He moved up in weight to find fighters. If combine that with the fact he fought 3 times in 21 days after his first loss against the very best opponents is uncomparable.
when sam langford weighed 150 lbs alot of heavyweights would not fight him, he is by far the most feared fighter of all time and it's not really close, also guys like sandy saddler, when he was a featherweight often moved up to fight lightweights and welterweights, even koed joe brown, ike williams did the same, moving to welterweight and fighting guys like kid gavilan, carmen basilio, cause he had beaten everyone at lightweight, same thing with tiger flowers and harry greb, they both fought guys from middle to heavyweight, greb even has wins over tunney and loughran who both outweighed him, micky walker fought guys from welterweight to heavy, everone already knows henry armstrongs story, tony canzoneri ofter fough guys much bigger guys, jimmy wide weighed around 100 lbs he would often ko featherweights, I am talking knocking them out cold, ketchel would fight anyone any time, joe gans often fought welterweights, charley burley was often at a size disadvantage, my point is that guys were simply tougher back then, I believe that people in general were tougher, both in mind and body, nowadays people complain if the have to walk a couple flights of stairs for christ sake, wait for the subway for ten min, to go 4 blocks up the fucking street, people have grown soft, most fighters too, people make a huge deal about what pacquiao is doing and I am not knocking him, I think that it's great, but back in the day It was something that was common.
when sam langford weighed 150 lbs alot of heavyweights would not fight him, he is by far the most feared fighter of all time and it's not really close, also guys like sandy saddler, when he was a featherweight often moved up to fight lightweights and welterweights, even koed joe brown, ike williams did the same, moving to welterweight and fighting guys like kid gavilan, carmen basilio, cause he had beaten everyone at lightweight, same thing with tiger flowers and harry greb, they both fought guys from middle to heavyweight, greb even has wins over tunney and loughran who both outweighed him, micky walker fought guys from welterweight to heavy, everone already knows henry armstrongs story, tony canzoneri ofter fough guys much bigger guys, jimmy wide weighed around 100 lbs he would often ko featherweights, I am talking knocking them out cold, ketchel would fight anyone any time, joe gans often fought welterweights, charley burley was often at a size disadvantage, my point is that guys were simply tougher back then, I believe that people in general were tougher, both in mind and body, nowadays people complain if the have to walk a couple flights of stairs for christ sake, wait for the subway for ten min, to go 4 blocks up the fucking street, people have grown soft, most fighters too, people make a huge deal about what pacquiao is doing and I am not knocking him, I think that it's great, but back in the day It was something that was common.
In 1919 HARRY GREB fought 45 fights almost all of them 10 to 15 rounders. that's with 6 ounce gloves too, tough,tough, tough, add to the fact that he was an aggressive brawler who offence was his defence makes it even more amazing,
In 1919 HARRY GREB fought 45 fights almost all of them 10 to 15 rounders. that's with 6 ounce gloves too, tough,tough, tough, add to the fact that he was an aggressive brawler who offence was his defence makes it even more amazing,
The bad part was the first six years of Robinson's career fights weren't recorded. I like the story about when Ray was way past his prime returned from retirement and was in the rematch I think against Basilio. Ray lost the first four rounds badly and felt sick and wanted to just quit and was adamant about it. His corner asked him for one more round and he one punch KOd Basilio with a left hook. Many people forget how often he fought the best fighters and totally dominated them but age and all those fights caught up to him. He was fighting for $1,000 paydays and well into his late 30s. After his prime he lost but always rematched and defeated every opponent that beat him. People forget he killed a fighter and many close to him say it effected him a lot more than it appeared. Even more eerie is he had a premonition the night before wanting to call the fight off as he had reoccuring thoughts about killing his opponent (RIP "Jimmy Doyle").
The bad part was the first six years of Robinson's career fights weren't recorded. I like the story about when Ray was way past his prime returned from retirement and was in the rematch I think against Basilio. Ray lost the first four rounds badly and felt sick and wanted to just quit and was adamant about it. His corner asked him for one more round and he one punch KOd Basilio with a left hook. Many people forget how often he fought the best fighters and totally dominated them but age and all those fights caught up to him. He was fighting for $1,000 paydays and well into his late 30s. After his prime he lost but always rematched and defeated every opponent that beat him. People forget he killed a fighter and many close to him say it effected him a lot more than it appeared. Even more eerie is he had a premonition the night before wanting to call the fight off as he had reoccuring thoughts about killing his opponent (RIP "Jimmy Doyle").
zouk you are referring to robinson's ko of gene fullmer in the 5th round of their rematch, as opposed to basilio, fullmer is one of the toughest to ever do it but that left hook was a thing of beauty, it lets us all know that it does not matter how tough that you are if you get hit with a big shot that you don't see, anyone can be koed
zouk you are referring to robinson's ko of gene fullmer in the 5th round of their rematch, as opposed to basilio, fullmer is one of the toughest to ever do it but that left hook was a thing of beauty, it lets us all know that it does not matter how tough that you are if you get hit with a big shot that you don't see, anyone can be koed
Regarding great rivalries, years ago (I'm speaking especially the 50s and more so before) the fighters were tough as nails and they often had no other immediate opponent so they repeatedly fought one another. Another thing you'll notice is they would fight at the same spot and usually within a month which helped save on travel money and would allow the opportunity to rematch each other more feasible. For instance, Harold Green fought Sammy Secreet three consecutives fights (Sammy fought once in between fights two and three) in the Cleveland Ohio Arena (04/08/1946,05/13/1946,09/09/1946). Regarding great rivalries, years ago (I'm speaking especially the 50s and more so before) the fighters were tough as nails and they often had no other immediate opponent so they repeatedly fought one another. Another thing you'll notice is they would fight at the same spot and usually within a month which helped save on travel money and would allow the opportunity to rematch each other more feasible. For example, Harold Green fought Sammy Secreet three consecutives fights (Sammy fought once in between fights two and three) in the Cleveland Ohio Arena in 1946 (April 8th, May 13th, September 9th). Considering this factor and the current condition of boxing the game of rivalries has changed. We are all familiar with boxing's corruption due to all the money involved and its political control. Getting a rivalry starts with either a rematch clause, a great fight the public would love to see again and promoters can agree, and sometimes the controversy is caused by a bad decision, or an allegedly illegal substance taken, or any issue regarding irregular gloves, or any factor that may indicate foul play. Also, on occassion you get a fighter who had an off night and a rematch doesn't interfere with any future pre-signed fight. A recent letdown was Paul Williams in his first fight against Carlos Quintana (no discredit to Quintana as he did fight the correct strategy to defeat Williams and deservingly won). The rematch Williams won a first round TKO. So getting a great rivalry today is much more difficult for many reasons and I hope the fans who get to be ringside for a modern day rivalry appreciate the rarity it is. So the rivalries like Holyfield vs Bowe, Morales vs Barrera and Marquez vs Vasquez will be less and less occurring for reasons I stated. I'm not in anyway taking away the past great rivalries as I was just explaining the facts how in the past (not stating that fighters weren't great and didn't fight great rematches) rematches were in the all around best interest of everyone (except the rivalries where it seemed one fighter always absorbed far the worst of it).
Regarding great rivalries, years ago (I'm speaking especially the 50s and more so before) the fighters were tough as nails and they often had no other immediate opponent so they repeatedly fought one another. Another thing you'll notice is they would fight at the same spot and usually within a month which helped save on travel money and would allow the opportunity to rematch each other more feasible. For instance, Harold Green fought Sammy Secreet three consecutives fights (Sammy fought once in between fights two and three) in the Cleveland Ohio Arena (04/08/1946,05/13/1946,09/09/1946). Regarding great rivalries, years ago (I'm speaking especially the 50s and more so before) the fighters were tough as nails and they often had no other immediate opponent so they repeatedly fought one another. Another thing you'll notice is they would fight at the same spot and usually within a month which helped save on travel money and would allow the opportunity to rematch each other more feasible. For example, Harold Green fought Sammy Secreet three consecutives fights (Sammy fought once in between fights two and three) in the Cleveland Ohio Arena in 1946 (April 8th, May 13th, September 9th). Considering this factor and the current condition of boxing the game of rivalries has changed. We are all familiar with boxing's corruption due to all the money involved and its political control. Getting a rivalry starts with either a rematch clause, a great fight the public would love to see again and promoters can agree, and sometimes the controversy is caused by a bad decision, or an allegedly illegal substance taken, or any issue regarding irregular gloves, or any factor that may indicate foul play. Also, on occassion you get a fighter who had an off night and a rematch doesn't interfere with any future pre-signed fight. A recent letdown was Paul Williams in his first fight against Carlos Quintana (no discredit to Quintana as he did fight the correct strategy to defeat Williams and deservingly won). The rematch Williams won a first round TKO. So getting a great rivalry today is much more difficult for many reasons and I hope the fans who get to be ringside for a modern day rivalry appreciate the rarity it is. So the rivalries like Holyfield vs Bowe, Morales vs Barrera and Marquez vs Vasquez will be less and less occurring for reasons I stated. I'm not in anyway taking away the past great rivalries as I was just explaining the facts how in the past (not stating that fighters weren't great and didn't fight great rematches) rematches were in the all around best interest of everyone (except the rivalries where it seemed one fighter always absorbed far the worst of it).
Promoters are a big reason for no rivalries, they make fighters fight easy fights instead of hard fights ex. in 126lb division you have Chris John (WBA champ since 03) 45-0-2, Yuriorkis Gamboa (WBA Champ since 09?) 20-0, Juan Manuel Lopez (WBO 122lb Champ, then moved up, won WBO 126lb belt, lost in upset) 30-1, Lopez is still young and could beat John or Gamboa. Of coarse you have Mayweather-Pacquiao (they could have already fought 3 times since it has been talked about), Paquiaio avoided JMM for years twice, Mayweather avoided Cotto, Margarito and Paul Williams a couple of years ago at welterweight, instead he fought Judah (who lost to Baldimir in prior fight), then Baldimir (43-9-6). If the best don't fight the best, how are you going to have a great rivalry, let alone a great fight.
Promoters are a big reason for no rivalries, they make fighters fight easy fights instead of hard fights ex. in 126lb division you have Chris John (WBA champ since 03) 45-0-2, Yuriorkis Gamboa (WBA Champ since 09?) 20-0, Juan Manuel Lopez (WBO 122lb Champ, then moved up, won WBO 126lb belt, lost in upset) 30-1, Lopez is still young and could beat John or Gamboa. Of coarse you have Mayweather-Pacquiao (they could have already fought 3 times since it has been talked about), Paquiaio avoided JMM for years twice, Mayweather avoided Cotto, Margarito and Paul Williams a couple of years ago at welterweight, instead he fought Judah (who lost to Baldimir in prior fight), then Baldimir (43-9-6). If the best don't fight the best, how are you going to have a great rivalry, let alone a great fight.
Just to throw something in...Ali-Norton had the triology. The only reason i mention that is I think Norton got robbed in Yankee stadium. .I feel he won that fight easy and was probally his best performance of his career. That and the Norton - Holmes was his best which I thought Norton won also. But you can't complain that was a great fight.
Just to throw something in...Ali-Norton had the triology. The only reason i mention that is I think Norton got robbed in Yankee stadium. .I feel he won that fight easy and was probally his best performance of his career. That and the Norton - Holmes was his best which I thought Norton won also. But you can't complain that was a great fight.
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