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Author: [Boxing] Topic: Boxing:Manny Mayweather Out,Manny Marquez In (Thoughts?Weight Factor?)
ZOUK send a private message View Space | Friends | Playbook |
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#1
Posted: 5/28/2011 7:46:31 PM
Unfortunately the fight almost everyone wanted doesn't appear to be in the making, even down the road. For me, I thought a Marquez trilogy would be great. Once the weight was announced I lost excitement. I feel the biggest factor is 144lbs for Marquez. He can't match power with Manny at that weight. Marquez is a great fighter, but unlike the Mayweather fight and the previous two fights against Manny he won't be able to keep Manny off or hurt him like he did previously. If they fought at 137lbs, I'd be excited about the match. Any early thoughts or analysis? Does anyone think the weight won't effect Marquez? Also, I mentioned Mayweather bout because unlike that fight, this fight will be action packed! Also, does anyone feel Manny will be at a psycholgicaly dis-advantage.? The reason I say this is besides the two brutal fights, Manny stated after the second fight he was all done fighting this guy (and he wasn't joking). Maybe at the new weight he has a different perspective.
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#2
Posted: 5/28/2011 8:48:32 PM
- 144 is too much for JMM
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#3
Posted: 5/29/2011 12:32:54 AM

I really feel he is gonna hang them up.

He did all he can do with nothing left to prove.

Screw FM ,  They both go out on top in my opinion

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#4
Posted: 5/29/2011 1:11:02 AM

LRM704: Agreed! They both duck no one, & they have the killer instinct. I know Floyd fights to win, but he doesn't take chances and that's why he's not as exciting to watch. JMM & MP both try to finish a guy and not leave it up to the judges. Manny fighters like Sugar Ray Leonard, Roy Jones Jr, etc, use to take chances and had exciting fights in early and mid-career. Towards the end they played it safe and did a lot of moving even though they had many opportunities to bring it. I know the goal is winning, but fans loved Evander because he brought it everytime. You might not win as many fights, but you don't need a belt... what counts is the people, and the people champ. Even Hopkins who is maybe the best defensive fighter always brings it, he doesn't have that explosive offense like JMM or MP, but he does all he can to take a guy out if he can.

nc1capper: Totally agree. I feel Manny should have come down, but he's all muscle now at 146 so he has to lose muscle mass and that takes a lot out of a fighter. Look at Roy Jones Jr. when he went to heavyweight and when back to light heavyweight, he had no power left. It's not natural to do that, especially anyone over 30 because your body never fully recovers.

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#5
Posted: 5/30/2011 3:24:09 PM
The fight is a joke they are milking our memories when they fought at their natural weights.


Erase those two fights from your mind, these two guys are nothing what they used to be in weight and in ability.

Marquez past 135 will be bullied and hammered. They fought tooth and nail when pac-man only had a left, now he has much more.

Add to the fact pac-man somehow can go up to 154 and KEEP his speed and gain more power.  We saw Marquez past 135 it wasn't pretty.

Only thing this fight has going for it Marquez will represent the first guy who didn't just come to last or collect a paycheck and lay down.

Even though he's a shell of what he once was, this is still the second best fight for us because floyd-pac just isn't happening.

I thought Floyds fiasco was just a publicity stunt, I now believe it's more than that. I mean stunt in when he retired a few years back.  His legal problems are pretty deep.

In the end Pac-man will fight Marquez, win and retire. Really no one out there that can compete he has nothing left to prove except against Floyd.  NO other fight for Pac-man could be a PPV sell besides Marquez and Floyd.

As we seen in the Mosley fight even the people who aren't fight fans are hesitant to pull that trigger on that PPV BUY BUTTON :)

                                       
                                         
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#6
Posted: 6/1/2011 10:16:24 PM

I believe Marquez has a real chance in this fight.  He has a long time to prepare.  I don't think 144 will be a problem.

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#7
Posted: 6/2/2011 12:35:41 AM
DannoDanger: I have to strongly disagree. I'm 100% agreement with previous posts. Marquez is my favorite fighter and has been for 8 years. Marquez at this weight simply can't trade with Manny like he did previously. And at this weight he doesn't have the power. What he will lack is a little speed which makes a huge difference as his age and going up to a weight that's not natural for him. After the 2nd fight, I wanted to see an immediate rematch, cause I forseen this happening through the money Mayweather shuffle. Marquez will not seen the 12th round. The one previous fight regarding Manny being one handed is not all true. He corrected his balance and was effecting using two hands but not to the degree he is now. The first fight and the first fight against Morales he was one handed with bad footwork. Now he's a complete fighter. Marquez is one of the most technical fighters, but you can only do so much is certain siatuation. I think it will be action packed, but around round 3 and 4, Manny will really dominate causing many knockdowns to the point where the corner might stop it. We got plently other fights to discuss before them so we'll wait and see what happens few weeks prior to fight time.
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#8
Posted: 6/4/2011 7:53:36 AM
i think marquez takes a massive pounding at any weight vs pac man but the higher they go the worse the beating. it will be ugly cause jmm has a hugh heart and wont go easily.
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#9
Posted: 6/4/2011 12:30:53 PM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by BigPapa21:

i think marquez takes a massive pounding at any weight vs pac man but the higher they go the worse the beating. it will be ugly cause jmm has a hugh heart and wont go easily.

 

What has changed since their two previous fights?  JMM went up in weight and got beat by Floyd?  Is that why people are saying that he has no chance against Pac?  If so, I believe you're looking at it wrong.  To me, both fighters are clearly in decline and this is a tough, even fight.

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#10
Posted: 6/4/2011 12:33:51 PM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by nuttyrich:



Only thing this fight has going for it Marquez will represent the first guy who didn't just come to last or collect a paycheck and lay down. 
                                         

You can say that about Mosley or Clottey, but not anyone else.  Everyone else was trying, but just got beat up (Margarito, Cotto, Oscar, Hatton, etc)

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#11
Posted: 6/4/2011 1:26:36 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DannoDanger:

 

What has changed since their two previous fights?  JMM went up in weight and got beat by Floyd?  Is that why people are saying that he has no chance against Pac?  If so, I believe you're looking at it wrong.  To me, both fighters are clearly in decline and this is a tough, even fight.

Pacman has become a more balanced fighter. Marquez has lost a little speed with age and weight. The Mayweather fight has no effect with my analysis. I think JMM is in a decline, especially due to weight, & I feel Manny is about the same. Manny has the power at the weight. BigPapa21 was correct about JMM's heart. It will be brutal for him. Hopefully for JMM there will be a 3 knockdown rule in effect because Manny won't let up and I wouldn't want to see JMM take a 7 or 8 round beating.  This fight should have been done late 2008 but Manny didn't want to. He publicly stated he didn't want to fight Marquez again. Now 3 years and significant weight changes makes Manny willing to mix it up again. I think justy because Manny didn't knock out his last 3 opponents doesn't mean he is declining. Mosley didn't engage him, Margarito took a beating and Clottey is a beast (like Hagler but doesn't have the offensive skills). Clottey fought Cotto to a 12 round decision with a badly hurt knee where he had no balance or power and people think it was even cause Cotto had a bad cut. You can fight with a bad cut, one eye, one arm, but you need 2 legs... anyone that ever boxed or did any sports for the matter knows this. Conclusion: JMM takes a beating.

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#12
Posted: 6/4/2011 1:35:08 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DannoDanger:

 

What has changed since their two previous fights?  JMM went up in weight and got beat by Floyd?  Is that why people are saying that he has no chance against Pac?  If so, I believe you're looking at it wrong.  To me, both fighters are clearly in decline and this is a tough, even fight.

the diaz fights i thought were a good indication of the jmm decline. i feel pac man would have beat diaz easily without taking the punishment that jmm took. its of course speculation but marquez hasn't been in to many easy fights. the w's come with beatings. pac-man will have respect for him but jmm will not win in my opinion. pac-man will be up for a jmm fight.

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#13
Posted: 6/4/2011 1:44:22 PM

ZOUK, I agree that Joshua Clottey is like Marvin Hagler.  Good luck on this fight when it comes around.

 

 

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#14
Posted: 6/4/2011 2:42:25 PM
Hagler and Clottey used in the same sentence should be a crime ;)

Hagler was one of the best.

                                                 
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#15
Posted: 6/5/2011 4:05:22 AM

DannoDanger: Thanks & to you as well!

nuttyrich: I meant as a physical specimen. Clottey's never even been hurt. His chin is great & stamina with ability to take punches has been proven. Even the great Hagler was on person street when Hearns connected. My point was regarding his strong body & mind, but obviously lacks that offense that made Hagler great!

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#16
Posted: 6/5/2011 11:52:35 AM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by nuttyrich:

Hagler and Clottey used in the same sentence should be a crime ;)

Hagler was one of the best.

                                                 

well put...clottey never comes to fight. hagler always came to fight...the antefermo draw is one of the biggest robberies in boxing history. i still think hagler beat leonard...

 

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#17
Posted: 6/5/2011 11:25:10 PM
I watched that fight live then in the 11th round the cable went out. I was at a bar my folks owned growing up. Cable communication went down around half of NY and it was such great timing! I remember reading the SI special edition they had comparing the fighters. I think the public opinion was split on who they felt won the fight. Leonard did a little to much moving and was more like running at times. That's the thing you gotta love about JMM and Manny, they fight smart but don't back down during exchanges. Holyfield was always the smaller heavyweight in the ring, but traded punches with anyone. I could understand if you don't have the power or a good chin, but Leonard had all the tools. Roy Jones started playing it safe halfway through his career instead of knocking people out. Yes, fighter are there to win and make money, but knockouts and great battles create money fights. Tyson was the biggest draw for that reason!
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#18
Posted: 6/5/2011 11:26:42 PM
Once more, I wasn't comparing Clottey to Hagler as a fighter, I was comparing his as an athlete and physical specimen. Anyone that knows boxing knows where Hagler ranks, right near the top!
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#19
Posted: 6/6/2011 1:30:50 PM
the problem with this fight for marquez is age, not weight, alot of time people make too much of a big deal over weight, announcers talk about 5 friggin pounds like it's 50, pacquiao is a much better fighter than marquez regardless of what weight, he proved he was better at featherweight and jr light, since then pacquiao has gotten much better, while marquez has just got older and slower. marquez is a great technition in their, but take a look at his record, when he fights b level guys he wins, when he steps up he looses , I would call marquez a very good but not a great fighter. when he beat barrera, marco was done at that point.
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#20
Posted: 6/6/2011 5:22:40 PM
thesoulpurpose: About JMM fighting Barrera, I disagree. Both times he fought Manny it was an even fight (first time Manny was one handed fighter). He lost to Mayweather one because of the size differential, and Mayweather is a better fighter. I feel JMM is and was a great fighter. As far as being a ring technician, he's near the top of al fighters. He uses his abilities to the max. I will say the Marco was over the hill when he lost to JMM, but I think a fight in his prime would have been a classic. Remember too he just beat a good Juarez with only 1 loss at the time in a very close fight to Soto. I agree his age is a major impact and many times the weight is over rated, but not in the scenario. Manny seems to have gotten stronger and Marquez is maxed power at 135lbs. Also, maybe in another thread someone mentioned the Manny steroid controversy. Personally, I always look at the size and frame of a person. Manny has huge calves and big thighs and when he was lightweight it looked strange, but it shows a person has a natural muscular density allowing for substantial increase in size and strength. Tyson had tree trunks for legs!
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#21
Posted: 6/6/2011 5:35:32 PM
By the way, do you or does anyone feel Manny used any illegal substances (steroids specifically) at any point in his career? They say he started before the Oscar fight. I don't believe he did because his body showed the potential to increase size and with that strength. One case was Michael Moorer went from 174 then 4 months later was 224 (50lbs). People didn't know how hard it was for him to lose weight and stay at light heavyweight. He was 22-0 with ALL KNOCK-OUTS! It would have been interesting if Roy Jones was heavier at the time (he was middleweight) and get in the ring with Moorer. More than likely Jones would have moved and ran for 4 rounds and after that Moorer was always exhausted due to the weight. James Toney claimed he lost to Jones due to weight. I think not, but I think Toney was an over-achiever in the sport. He wasn't fast or strong, but he punched from many angles and really broke opponents down. Sorry to get off topic, just some thoughts came to mind while typing.
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#22
Posted: 6/7/2011 3:26:42 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by ZOUK:

thesoulpurpose: About JMM fighting Barrera, I disagree. Both times he fought Manny it was an even fight (first time Manny was one handed fighter). He lost to Mayweather one because of the size differential, and Mayweather is a better fighter. I feel JMM is and was a great fighter. As far as being a ring technician, he's near the top of al fighters. He uses his abilities to the max. I will say the Marco was over the hill when he lost to JMM, but I think a fight in his prime would have been a classic. Remember too he just beat a good Juarez with only 1 loss at the time in a very close fight to Soto. I agree his age is a major impact and many times the weight is over rated, but not in the scenario. Manny seems to have gotten stronger and Marquez is maxed power at 135lbs. Also, maybe in another thread someone mentioned the Manny steroid controversy. Personally, I always look at the size and frame of a person. Manny has huge calves and big thighs and when he was lightweight it looked strange, but it shows a person has a natural muscular density allowing for substantial increase in size and strength. Tyson had tree trunks for legs!
   to me in order to be a great fighter, you must beat other A level fighters when you fight them, marquez has not done this, freddie norwood, pacquiao, chris john, mayweather, when he steps up he looses, he beat casamayor , but joel was about 60 percent of what he was in his prime at that time.   history is filled with great featherweights, who have moved up into the lightweight and even welterweight divisions and had sucess at the elite level, think henry armstrong, tony canzoneri,alexis arguello, sandy saddler, those guys were truly great fighters, marquez, is very good, not great.
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#23
Posted: 6/7/2011 9:45:03 PM
Arg├╝ello was a warrior whose time had passed a little early. Unfortunately the details of his death are vague and that he shot himself through the heart but foul play could have been involved. He was highly political and was starting a movement against the Sandinista party. JMM against Chris John was a let down and being in Indonesia of all places (lol), Mayweather was clearly to big and better, and Manny took a beating both fights (The last split decision I often felt they saw big future $$$'s in a Manny win. It was an extremely close fight that could have been either way. On another note, their 1st fight one judge scored the 1st round incorrect helping JMM to a draw. He went down 3 times and it was a 10-6 round, but one judge had it 10-7 by mistake. After that JMM went on to control the fight). Diaz, Katsidis and Casamayor he physically broke them down and finshed then via KO. Also, he finishes strong and those 3 fighters he KO'd them all after the 8th round. Barrera and Juarez he won easily. I feel he didn't get in the spot light until late in his career and still feel he was a great. Props for mentioning Armstrong, he brought it at every weight class!
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#24
Posted: 6/8/2011 1:37:26 AM
Cinco de Mayo is on a Saturday in 2012. The same day and night oscar-floyd happened. Which ended being the biggest PPV in boxing hitory.

Floyd-Pac will finally happen then. Guarantee it.

Floyd just wants a tune up fight and Manny will fight anyone Arum puts out there.

11 months away


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#25
Posted: 6/8/2011 2:51:47 PM
marnypoly: What makes you think that fight will happen? Naturally, it would most likely be sooner than later because Mayweather won't fight unless he's still primed at 100%. Mayweather has done a lot to make this fight not happen. I think he wants his legacy as "The Greatest of All" and being undefeated. The only fighter he avoided clearly was Manny. He also refused Paul Williams when Williams offered to come down in weight. Also, Mayweather's last 8 opponents in past 6 yeats were all atleast 33 years old besides for Hatton. I think they were 33,34,35,or 38 going back to 2005. In 2011, Mayweather just turned 34. I know the past 5 years we have seen a rejuvination and promotion of older fighters making a comeback, but the fact remains that most the fighters were war-torn by 33 and it makes all the difference in a fight. Not until he was an aged 31 did Chavez lose his 1st fight. Even at that age he was great but 5 years earlier he was much more of a force in the ring.
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