Lets see if we go back and read the posts, you attacked me because you didnt like hearing the truth about five aka amazing mets.
Could it be because you are one of mets aliases and want to cover for him
is this one of your 100% news flash facts
i am thinking you are mets and all of this hullabaloo is a crafty trick to throw the mounties of your trail
your secret is safe with me
is this one of your 100% news flash facts
i am thinking you are mets and all of this hullabaloo is a crafty trick to throw the mounties of your trail
your secret is safe with me
is this one of your 100% news flash facts
i am thinking you are mets and all of this hullabaloo is a crafty trick to throw the mounties of your trail
your secret is safe with me
is this one of your 100% news flash facts
i am thinking you are mets and all of this hullabaloo is a crafty trick to throw the mounties of your trail
your secret is safe with me
wall....
post 6 this thread?
https://www.covers.com/postingforum/post01/showmessage.aspx?spt=87&sub=101066026&page=1
Didnt you ask us to stay clear of each other, or does it go just one way?
wall....
post 6 this thread?
https://www.covers.com/postingforum/post01/showmessage.aspx?spt=87&sub=101066026&page=1
Didnt you ask us to stay clear of each other, or does it go just one way?
post 78 I said I would address other link..
I only see Stiln's link, if that is the one, what part of the guys comments do you want my opinion on?
You can just give me the first paragraph and I will know where to start
post 78 I said I would address other link..
I only see Stiln's link, if that is the one, what part of the guys comments do you want my opinion on?
You can just give me the first paragraph and I will know where to start
OK I PROMISE I will hit it tomorrow
Late night here, early morning, but once I am done tomorrow night, I have 18 hours to get back to this
OK I PROMISE I will hit it tomorrow
Late night here, early morning, but once I am done tomorrow night, I have 18 hours to get back to this
OBSERVATIONS:
(1) There appears to be no organization at all. The officers are not organized into an entry stack, they are not apparently taking pre-determined positions, and they mill about, apparently not knowing what should happen next. I agree with this, not sure if entry hallway was to narrow.
Certainly didn't need all the officers there.
I would hope they had eyes on the house before the raid, and knew there were only 3 people ( 2 adults ) in the house
IMO, could have had "show of power " and send in only 2 or 3 after taking the door down
(2) They are apparently announcing themselves, but their words are muted. It would be entirely possible for people in the home to be unable to hear what they are saying. Possible, but the siren was sounded and the sound we hear isn't from right outside the house
It is also SOP to continue to "announce" after the door is breached
(3) The activation of the siren appears to be uncoordinated with the action at the door. I cannot hear any radio traffic asking for such activation, and there are no visual signals requesting it. If the residents heard it at all, it could be easily mistaken for a car alarm. It isn't meant to be sounded at the same time
Why would you want additional noise?
You want the bad guy to hear the police orders
You want the good guys to hear the police orders
(4) Music, apparently playing in the police vehicle, is a very disturbing sign. It indicates a lack of training and concentration that would be potentially deadly in any SWAT operation. This is an amazing bit of foolishness. It is hard enough to clearly hear radio traffic and voices in fast moving, stressful situations. Adding extraneous music is incredibly stupid and dangerous. I don't hear music, so if it is on, it's at a low volume, and it certainly wouldn't be heard by the team
(5) Whoever knocks does so very quietly and makes only 4-5 knocks. It’s not possible to tell whether the home has a doorbell, but from the knock to the kick that opens the door only about seven seconds elapse, not nearly enough time for any resident to answer the knock even if they did hear it. It wasn't meant to be a social visit, it was meant to be announce, and gain entry
ring a doorbell?
This isn't the Avon lady, it was a SWAT raid
The evidence currently suggests that Vanessa Guerena, Jose’s wife, spotted armed men roaming about the yard. Telling Jose, he directed her to hide in a closet with their four year old child, and taking up an AR-15, crouched in a hallway to intercept what he likely thought were armed home invaders. The exact time frame of these actions is currently unknown. sounds about right, but, that doesn't make the actions by SWAT inappropriate
That the officers take the time to knock and sound a siren indicates that they did not consider time to be of the essence. Not true at all, they are following procedure is my guess
They were apparently not concerned that the residents of the home would be armed and waiting for them, or that they might be trying to dispose of evidence. This guy is a model of inconsistency ( sounds like numbers ) in above comment ( 5 )he talks about 7 seconds apart, now he is talking about disposal of evidence ||an_hammer.gif' border=0> Had this been the case, they would have obtained a no-knock warrant and entered without warning, maximizing shock and surprise and minimizing the danger. I disagree it minimizes danger, and we dont know what warrant was applied for...maybe a judge refused a no knock As it is, their actions indicate a poor state of planning and readiness, haphazardly combining elements of a low-risk warrant service-albeit with a fully armed SWAT team, which makes no sense—and a high-risk, no-knock entry, for which a SWAT team makes sense.I am guessing that with 4 raids going on at the same time, there were a lack of bodies to hit all the sites at the same time, so they utilized SWAT
(6) When the door is kicked open, the officer who apparently opened the door has to hastily retreat through several other officers, indicating very poor planning. He had the ram, which means he has no free hands, he backed off and got out of the way In proper dynamic entries, the breaching officer or officers are positioned so that they can immediately swing out of the way without obstructing others, allowing the stack to immediately enter. Here, no one moves toward the door in a coordinated manner. I disagree, he opens the door and comes straight back up the middle
(7) After the door swings open, it takes about five seconds for an officer to apparently enter the door on the right, the shield man to stand in the doorway, blocking it, and the officer on the left of the door to lean in and point his weapon into the home.
34 second mark, door open
37 second mark, entry
(8) An important consideration here is that the officers were standing in bright sunlight. Upon entering, or looking into the home, unless they took appropriate steps to compensate, their vision would be compromised. Anyone who has been outside in bright sunlight and stepped into a building without lights on understands what I’m talking about. It is likely that when they saw Guerena, and the specifics of that encounter are far from clear, they saw only a dark and/or indistinct outline. It is impossible to see if the officers are wearing goggles or dark glasses, which would allow them to see clearly in a darkened dwelling upon entry, but there is no apparent sign of them adjusting such eyewear off their eyes as they stand in the doorway. It is entirely possible that those who fired had no real idea why they were firing because they could not clearly see the “threat” that was drawing their fire. I could see this being a debate except Guerena HAD A WEAPON and the SWAT team had 22 "hits"
(9) The shooting begins with 4-5 evenly spaced shots, apparently on semi-automatic. Those shots are quickly joined by a wild melee of fire which lasts about eight seconds, followed by a two second silence and one final shot. According to media accounts, the SWAT team “leader” said that the officers involved exhausted their ammunition. That’s not at all hard to believe, and it is possible that more than 71 rounds were fired. What is the point here? Only one person was hit, no SWAT was hit, the wife and child weren't hit
What is absolutely clear is that the firing was not professionally done. Professional operators fire in two-three rounds bursts, take the milliseconds necessary to asses whether their fire has had the desired effect, and fire again, in a carefully controlled, highly accurate manner, only if necessary. What I heard on the video was panicky fire. Two officers heard the first firing, and they simply opened up and held their triggers down, or kept pulling the trigger, until their bolts locked back, their magazines having been emptied. No doubt their trigger fingers were still jerking even then.
I tend to agree with this, but, when you hear "continuous fire" it could be 3 pops from shooter A, then 3 pops from shooter B, however sound like continued firing
OBSERVATIONS:
(1) There appears to be no organization at all. The officers are not organized into an entry stack, they are not apparently taking pre-determined positions, and they mill about, apparently not knowing what should happen next. I agree with this, not sure if entry hallway was to narrow.
Certainly didn't need all the officers there.
I would hope they had eyes on the house before the raid, and knew there were only 3 people ( 2 adults ) in the house
IMO, could have had "show of power " and send in only 2 or 3 after taking the door down
(2) They are apparently announcing themselves, but their words are muted. It would be entirely possible for people in the home to be unable to hear what they are saying. Possible, but the siren was sounded and the sound we hear isn't from right outside the house
It is also SOP to continue to "announce" after the door is breached
(3) The activation of the siren appears to be uncoordinated with the action at the door. I cannot hear any radio traffic asking for such activation, and there are no visual signals requesting it. If the residents heard it at all, it could be easily mistaken for a car alarm. It isn't meant to be sounded at the same time
Why would you want additional noise?
You want the bad guy to hear the police orders
You want the good guys to hear the police orders
(4) Music, apparently playing in the police vehicle, is a very disturbing sign. It indicates a lack of training and concentration that would be potentially deadly in any SWAT operation. This is an amazing bit of foolishness. It is hard enough to clearly hear radio traffic and voices in fast moving, stressful situations. Adding extraneous music is incredibly stupid and dangerous. I don't hear music, so if it is on, it's at a low volume, and it certainly wouldn't be heard by the team
(5) Whoever knocks does so very quietly and makes only 4-5 knocks. It’s not possible to tell whether the home has a doorbell, but from the knock to the kick that opens the door only about seven seconds elapse, not nearly enough time for any resident to answer the knock even if they did hear it. It wasn't meant to be a social visit, it was meant to be announce, and gain entry
ring a doorbell?
This isn't the Avon lady, it was a SWAT raid
The evidence currently suggests that Vanessa Guerena, Jose’s wife, spotted armed men roaming about the yard. Telling Jose, he directed her to hide in a closet with their four year old child, and taking up an AR-15, crouched in a hallway to intercept what he likely thought were armed home invaders. The exact time frame of these actions is currently unknown. sounds about right, but, that doesn't make the actions by SWAT inappropriate
That the officers take the time to knock and sound a siren indicates that they did not consider time to be of the essence. Not true at all, they are following procedure is my guess
They were apparently not concerned that the residents of the home would be armed and waiting for them, or that they might be trying to dispose of evidence. This guy is a model of inconsistency ( sounds like numbers ) in above comment ( 5 )he talks about 7 seconds apart, now he is talking about disposal of evidence ||an_hammer.gif' border=0> Had this been the case, they would have obtained a no-knock warrant and entered without warning, maximizing shock and surprise and minimizing the danger. I disagree it minimizes danger, and we dont know what warrant was applied for...maybe a judge refused a no knock As it is, their actions indicate a poor state of planning and readiness, haphazardly combining elements of a low-risk warrant service-albeit with a fully armed SWAT team, which makes no sense—and a high-risk, no-knock entry, for which a SWAT team makes sense.I am guessing that with 4 raids going on at the same time, there were a lack of bodies to hit all the sites at the same time, so they utilized SWAT
(6) When the door is kicked open, the officer who apparently opened the door has to hastily retreat through several other officers, indicating very poor planning. He had the ram, which means he has no free hands, he backed off and got out of the way In proper dynamic entries, the breaching officer or officers are positioned so that they can immediately swing out of the way without obstructing others, allowing the stack to immediately enter. Here, no one moves toward the door in a coordinated manner. I disagree, he opens the door and comes straight back up the middle
(7) After the door swings open, it takes about five seconds for an officer to apparently enter the door on the right, the shield man to stand in the doorway, blocking it, and the officer on the left of the door to lean in and point his weapon into the home.
34 second mark, door open
37 second mark, entry
(8) An important consideration here is that the officers were standing in bright sunlight. Upon entering, or looking into the home, unless they took appropriate steps to compensate, their vision would be compromised. Anyone who has been outside in bright sunlight and stepped into a building without lights on understands what I’m talking about. It is likely that when they saw Guerena, and the specifics of that encounter are far from clear, they saw only a dark and/or indistinct outline. It is impossible to see if the officers are wearing goggles or dark glasses, which would allow them to see clearly in a darkened dwelling upon entry, but there is no apparent sign of them adjusting such eyewear off their eyes as they stand in the doorway. It is entirely possible that those who fired had no real idea why they were firing because they could not clearly see the “threat” that was drawing their fire. I could see this being a debate except Guerena HAD A WEAPON and the SWAT team had 22 "hits"
(9) The shooting begins with 4-5 evenly spaced shots, apparently on semi-automatic. Those shots are quickly joined by a wild melee of fire which lasts about eight seconds, followed by a two second silence and one final shot. According to media accounts, the SWAT team “leader” said that the officers involved exhausted their ammunition. That’s not at all hard to believe, and it is possible that more than 71 rounds were fired. What is the point here? Only one person was hit, no SWAT was hit, the wife and child weren't hit
What is absolutely clear is that the firing was not professionally done. Professional operators fire in two-three rounds bursts, take the milliseconds necessary to asses whether their fire has had the desired effect, and fire again, in a carefully controlled, highly accurate manner, only if necessary. What I heard on the video was panicky fire. Two officers heard the first firing, and they simply opened up and held their triggers down, or kept pulling the trigger, until their bolts locked back, their magazines having been emptied. No doubt their trigger fingers were still jerking even then.
I tend to agree with this, but, when you hear "continuous fire" it could be 3 pops from shooter A, then 3 pops from shooter B, however sound like continued firing
Considering the nature and volume of fire, it is amazing that Guerena was hit some 60 times. 22 times....not 60
I think we clearly see this guy is making up "facts" It is also amazing that the entire neighborhood was not ventilated. More knee jerk anti cop reaction...again this clown is talking about cops firing wildly...
How many people OTHER THAN THE VICTIM were hit?
have we heard about even ONE stray bullet in the neighborhood?
The media would be all over it if there was a report
Apparently at least one round did strike a neighboring home—which indicates that the police recognized the reckless manner of their fusillade sufficiently to check out the surrounding area—which caused to police to break into that home to ensure they had not killed anyone. Havent heard this anywhere else Apparently, they were lucky and did not. It is equally amazing that they did not shoot each other.
UPDATE 052911, 1329 CT: According to a more recent local news story, the medical examiner has reported that Guerena was hit not 60 times as originally suggested by doctors, but only 22 times. This is far more in line with common results of police shootings where most rounds fired do not hit their intended targets. This is also far more in line with what would be expected of the wild and uncontrolled fire of the SWAT shooters in this particular incident, particularly those firing on full-auto. Highly skilled operators can control fully automatic fire in a submachine gun or light carbine such as the AR-15, untrained operators cannot. In any case, carefully controlled and aimed short bursts are always preferred. Police officers are directly responsible for each and every bullet they fire. In this case, nearly 70% of the rounds fired by the police missed. This might make more likely my contention that the officer's vision was compromised and that at least some of them had no real idea of their target or why they were shooting at it, other than the knowledge that one of their number was initially shooting at something. As shocking as all of this might be, the hit rate is about average for police shootings. SWAT teams should do much better. Knowing this, it is even more incredible that the officers did not shoot Mrs. Guerena, her child, themselves, or anyone else in the neighborhood. Now this clown is trying to cover for his original assumption, bottom line, nobody other than the vic was hit
(10) That the shield man never actually entered the home, but merely stood in the doorway, perfectly silhouetted, in the very center of a textbook fatal funnel speaks very poorly of the team’s training and experience. It’s not clear how he ended up on his back in that doorway. Did he trip and fall? Perhaps he was knocked off his feet by his teammates, eager to get in on the action. It is also possible that the fourth officer who hastily ran up to the door and thrust his handgun between two of his fellow officers may have fired it so closely to the head and face of the shield man that he was momentarily stunned--or injured--and knocked off his feet. Other officers block the view of the camera, so it is not, from the video alone, possible to know what happened. OR since he had a shield ( and hands are useless / can't use his weapon ) he dropped to the ground
(11) Perhaps the most egregious and telling indicator of little or no training, planning, experience and ability is the officer who runs to the doorway, thrusts his handgun between two fellow officers, likely shooting very close to their ears and eyes, to fire off some “me too” rounds. It is highly unlikely that this officer could have had any idea of his target, if he saw one at all. To be completely fair, he was probably acting as police officers do, tending toward action rather than inaction, but proper SWAT training teaches only appropriate, effective action. There is absolutely no room for “me too” shooting, on the street or during SWAT operations. pure speculation
(12) It is not, of course, possible to know what the officers did prior to the video, but they had obviously been there for at least a short time before the videotaping began. not sure what the point of this is...
FINAL THOUGHTS:
The information available through media accounts does not present clear probable cause for a search of Guerena’s home. media accounts
I have a feeling the "reliable informant" or " confidential informant" or 2 years of investigation wasn't given in full to the media
One media account noted:
“The reports state Jose Guerena; his brother, Alejandro; and Jose Celaya were named as suspects in briefings given to officers before the search warrants were served. Many of the officers' reports refer to the sheriff's long-term drug investigation as the reason for the search warrants. What does this have to do with the SWAT team, they were following a lawful, legal order
Considering the nature and volume of fire, it is amazing that Guerena was hit some 60 times. 22 times....not 60
I think we clearly see this guy is making up "facts" It is also amazing that the entire neighborhood was not ventilated. More knee jerk anti cop reaction...again this clown is talking about cops firing wildly...
How many people OTHER THAN THE VICTIM were hit?
have we heard about even ONE stray bullet in the neighborhood?
The media would be all over it if there was a report
Apparently at least one round did strike a neighboring home—which indicates that the police recognized the reckless manner of their fusillade sufficiently to check out the surrounding area—which caused to police to break into that home to ensure they had not killed anyone. Havent heard this anywhere else Apparently, they were lucky and did not. It is equally amazing that they did not shoot each other.
UPDATE 052911, 1329 CT: According to a more recent local news story, the medical examiner has reported that Guerena was hit not 60 times as originally suggested by doctors, but only 22 times. This is far more in line with common results of police shootings where most rounds fired do not hit their intended targets. This is also far more in line with what would be expected of the wild and uncontrolled fire of the SWAT shooters in this particular incident, particularly those firing on full-auto. Highly skilled operators can control fully automatic fire in a submachine gun or light carbine such as the AR-15, untrained operators cannot. In any case, carefully controlled and aimed short bursts are always preferred. Police officers are directly responsible for each and every bullet they fire. In this case, nearly 70% of the rounds fired by the police missed. This might make more likely my contention that the officer's vision was compromised and that at least some of them had no real idea of their target or why they were shooting at it, other than the knowledge that one of their number was initially shooting at something. As shocking as all of this might be, the hit rate is about average for police shootings. SWAT teams should do much better. Knowing this, it is even more incredible that the officers did not shoot Mrs. Guerena, her child, themselves, or anyone else in the neighborhood. Now this clown is trying to cover for his original assumption, bottom line, nobody other than the vic was hit
(10) That the shield man never actually entered the home, but merely stood in the doorway, perfectly silhouetted, in the very center of a textbook fatal funnel speaks very poorly of the team’s training and experience. It’s not clear how he ended up on his back in that doorway. Did he trip and fall? Perhaps he was knocked off his feet by his teammates, eager to get in on the action. It is also possible that the fourth officer who hastily ran up to the door and thrust his handgun between two of his fellow officers may have fired it so closely to the head and face of the shield man that he was momentarily stunned--or injured--and knocked off his feet. Other officers block the view of the camera, so it is not, from the video alone, possible to know what happened. OR since he had a shield ( and hands are useless / can't use his weapon ) he dropped to the ground
(11) Perhaps the most egregious and telling indicator of little or no training, planning, experience and ability is the officer who runs to the doorway, thrusts his handgun between two fellow officers, likely shooting very close to their ears and eyes, to fire off some “me too” rounds. It is highly unlikely that this officer could have had any idea of his target, if he saw one at all. To be completely fair, he was probably acting as police officers do, tending toward action rather than inaction, but proper SWAT training teaches only appropriate, effective action. There is absolutely no room for “me too” shooting, on the street or during SWAT operations. pure speculation
(12) It is not, of course, possible to know what the officers did prior to the video, but they had obviously been there for at least a short time before the videotaping began. not sure what the point of this is...
FINAL THOUGHTS:
The information available through media accounts does not present clear probable cause for a search of Guerena’s home. media accounts
I have a feeling the "reliable informant" or " confidential informant" or 2 years of investigation wasn't given in full to the media
One media account noted:
“The reports state Jose Guerena; his brother, Alejandro; and Jose Celaya were named as suspects in briefings given to officers before the search warrants were served. Many of the officers' reports refer to the sheriff's long-term drug investigation as the reason for the search warrants. What does this have to do with the SWAT team, they were following a lawful, legal order
good one cd, i am keyser soze
good one cd, i am keyser soze
wall....
post 6 this thread?
https://www.covers.com/postingforum/post01/showmessage.aspx?spt=87&sub=101066026&page=1
Didnt you ask us to stay clear of each other, or does it go just one way?
wall....
post 6 this thread?
https://www.covers.com/postingforum/post01/showmessage.aspx?spt=87&sub=101066026&page=1
Didnt you ask us to stay clear of each other, or does it go just one way?
Like I said before, I never worked with the QRT and was never one served a warrant
Statement of charges YES, made applications YES,
Of course there was a stalker who said that proved I wasn't a cop
My reply back should have been like comparing police work to a firemen
They may go into a burned building, and notice what looks like marks from an accelerant, but, the everyday fireman doesn't do the collection or analysis of the evidence,,,,this is a specialized field
Like I said before, I never worked with the QRT and was never one served a warrant
Statement of charges YES, made applications YES,
Of course there was a stalker who said that proved I wasn't a cop
My reply back should have been like comparing police work to a firemen
They may go into a burned building, and notice what looks like marks from an accelerant, but, the everyday fireman doesn't do the collection or analysis of the evidence,,,,this is a specialized field
My reply back should have been like comparing police work to a firemen
That's easy for you to say ...Do you have any idea how much time and care goes into feeding and grooming a spotty dog ?
My reply back should have been like comparing police work to a firemen
That's easy for you to say ...Do you have any idea how much time and care goes into feeding and grooming a spotty dog ?
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