A fellow walks into sports book at a major Strip hotel and wagers $5,000 on a football game. The move triggers an immediate and frenzied reaction from the house bookmaker, who quickly telephones the casino's sister properties and adjusts the line on the team that just was bet.
A few minutes later, another person strides up to the very same window at the very same sports book and wagers a whopping $50,000 on a football game. The very same house bookmaker nods in the player's direction, but otherwise makes no effort to put down his cup of coffee and lift himself from his corner stool.
What's going on here?
Bookmakers have learned that the amount of money bet often is secondary in importance to the identity of the person who places the wager. For example, a hotel guest who lumbers into the sports book from the gaming tables with a cocktail in one hand, a load of black chips in the other and what he believes is an informed opinion, usually is not viewed as a serious threat to the house's bottom line. For the most part, books are far more concerned with the activities of gambling syndicates and crafty local players.
Because bet-takers always are looking to get ahead of the action, to find that one right number that attracts equal or near equal activity to each side of a game, distinguishing and separating recreational or unsophisticated bettors, called 'squares,' from professional bettors, known as 'sharps,' can be crucial to a sports book's well-being. One way books do this is by reacting as quickly as possible to the moves made by professional bettors.
But first, bookmakers must identify the 'sharps,' who, in an attempt to get their wagers down at the most attractive prices, often use a variety of tricks and subterfuge. Known by sight to most bookmakers, many sophisticated bettors employ 'runners' or 'beards' to place their wagers, frequently striking with military-like precision at several properties at the same time.
Of course, bookmakers, who are trained to look for tip-offs such as clipboards or cell phones, eventually become familiar with the runners and the cat-and-mouse game begins anew.
In addition to the overall quality of their play, 'sharps' differentiate themselves from 'squares' in several other ways. Most obviously, 'sharps' are professionals who derive their income from their play, while 'squares' have "real" jobs.
Generally, say sports book managers, 'sharps' are low-key, gracious and unassuming, while players who boast about their successes usually are 'squares' with little chance of winning.
'Sharps' also distinguish themselves by the number of games they bet and the consistency of their wagers on each of those games. Typically, 'sharps' bet about six games during a football weekend. 'Squares' bet one or two, or even worse, nearly the whole card.
"If you believe you have an edge you don't want to bet just one or two games," explained a professional sports bettor who asked that his name be withheld. "If you play only a couple of games, luck becomes much too overwhelming of a factor. You don't want to be in a situation where a bad bounce or a lousy call from a referee beats you and that's the only game you've played. If you've played a handful of games, maybe five or six, and you're any good, you can overcome a bad beat."
There's also little variation in the size of bets made by 'sharps.'
"You pretty much bet the same amount on each game," said the player. "I don't have a best bet, a game-of-the-week or anything like that. C'mon, if I really knew which of my bets were 'best' wouldn't I just make those bets? I think all my bets are going to win; that's why I make them."
Finally, the 'sharp' player never measures success in the short run. Therefore, he never has to "get out" on an unlikely parlay or chase after the final game of the day or the weekend. Poker players are fond of saying that one session doesn't mean anything. 'Sharps' understand that.
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To remove first post, remove entire topic.
A fellow walks into sports book at a major Strip hotel and wagers $5,000 on a football game. The move triggers an immediate and frenzied reaction from the house bookmaker, who quickly telephones the casino's sister properties and adjusts the line on the team that just was bet.
A few minutes later, another person strides up to the very same window at the very same sports book and wagers a whopping $50,000 on a football game. The very same house bookmaker nods in the player's direction, but otherwise makes no effort to put down his cup of coffee and lift himself from his corner stool.
What's going on here?
Bookmakers have learned that the amount of money bet often is secondary in importance to the identity of the person who places the wager. For example, a hotel guest who lumbers into the sports book from the gaming tables with a cocktail in one hand, a load of black chips in the other and what he believes is an informed opinion, usually is not viewed as a serious threat to the house's bottom line. For the most part, books are far more concerned with the activities of gambling syndicates and crafty local players.
Because bet-takers always are looking to get ahead of the action, to find that one right number that attracts equal or near equal activity to each side of a game, distinguishing and separating recreational or unsophisticated bettors, called 'squares,' from professional bettors, known as 'sharps,' can be crucial to a sports book's well-being. One way books do this is by reacting as quickly as possible to the moves made by professional bettors.
But first, bookmakers must identify the 'sharps,' who, in an attempt to get their wagers down at the most attractive prices, often use a variety of tricks and subterfuge. Known by sight to most bookmakers, many sophisticated bettors employ 'runners' or 'beards' to place their wagers, frequently striking with military-like precision at several properties at the same time.
Of course, bookmakers, who are trained to look for tip-offs such as clipboards or cell phones, eventually become familiar with the runners and the cat-and-mouse game begins anew.
In addition to the overall quality of their play, 'sharps' differentiate themselves from 'squares' in several other ways. Most obviously, 'sharps' are professionals who derive their income from their play, while 'squares' have "real" jobs.
Generally, say sports book managers, 'sharps' are low-key, gracious and unassuming, while players who boast about their successes usually are 'squares' with little chance of winning.
'Sharps' also distinguish themselves by the number of games they bet and the consistency of their wagers on each of those games. Typically, 'sharps' bet about six games during a football weekend. 'Squares' bet one or two, or even worse, nearly the whole card.
"If you believe you have an edge you don't want to bet just one or two games," explained a professional sports bettor who asked that his name be withheld. "If you play only a couple of games, luck becomes much too overwhelming of a factor. You don't want to be in a situation where a bad bounce or a lousy call from a referee beats you and that's the only game you've played. If you've played a handful of games, maybe five or six, and you're any good, you can overcome a bad beat."
There's also little variation in the size of bets made by 'sharps.'
"You pretty much bet the same amount on each game," said the player. "I don't have a best bet, a game-of-the-week or anything like that. C'mon, if I really knew which of my bets were 'best' wouldn't I just make those bets? I think all my bets are going to win; that's why I make them."
Finally, the 'sharp' player never measures success in the short run. Therefore, he never has to "get out" on an unlikely parlay or chase after the final game of the day or the weekend. Poker players are fond of saying that one session doesn't mean anything. 'Sharps' understand that.
In reality -- The sharpest in the business are those who set the lines. Second tier sharps as you say have runners to place bets. Have to get to 3rd or 4th tier to be identified by a casino manager/worker, and they probably do more to balance the book than to put at risk.
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In reality -- The sharpest in the business are those who set the lines. Second tier sharps as you say have runners to place bets. Have to get to 3rd or 4th tier to be identified by a casino manager/worker, and they probably do more to balance the book than to put at risk.
Roxy Roxborough of LVSC once mentioned that setting the line is a combination of art and science. I believe the science part he was referring to was the linesman's analysis of mathematical probability of payout to house win and juice ratio at the end of each bet. The art component to it is the linesman's ability to anticipate the overall volume and bias of the upcoming action. In my opinion, the sharpest and most dangerous (although we all know Vegas will never ever get beaten) player in the biz are those (probably oldtimers) who can constantly spot a probable winner of a bad or inflated line. You can spot a bad line now and then and this is because the books have a tendency to concentrate on an upcoming 'heavy' game. The juice is like a tumor eating away at each bettor's bankroll once the bet is committed. I think the real sharp player carefully picks his spots and drops heavy action on that game with long-term success.
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Roxy Roxborough of LVSC once mentioned that setting the line is a combination of art and science. I believe the science part he was referring to was the linesman's analysis of mathematical probability of payout to house win and juice ratio at the end of each bet. The art component to it is the linesman's ability to anticipate the overall volume and bias of the upcoming action. In my opinion, the sharpest and most dangerous (although we all know Vegas will never ever get beaten) player in the biz are those (probably oldtimers) who can constantly spot a probable winner of a bad or inflated line. You can spot a bad line now and then and this is because the books have a tendency to concentrate on an upcoming 'heavy' game. The juice is like a tumor eating away at each bettor's bankroll once the bet is committed. I think the real sharp player carefully picks his spots and drops heavy action on that game with long-term success.
100% truth abut the real playerrs in sports industry !
I have a friend who lives in Veags and is aknown sharp stayed with Him a weekend 7 years ago
MY eyes and ears were wide open and My pockets FULL when i went home !
BUT they only make up 10% of Betting action in this country the other 90% are YES folks The Dweebs who just bet on their favorite team
they parly games every week chase to get out on MNF and have no clue on how to handicap games
THEN there is The Middle spectrum the ones who watch lines study teams handicap the games and play smart !
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100% truth abut the real playerrs in sports industry !
I have a friend who lives in Veags and is aknown sharp stayed with Him a weekend 7 years ago
MY eyes and ears were wide open and My pockets FULL when i went home !
BUT they only make up 10% of Betting action in this country the other 90% are YES folks The Dweebs who just bet on their favorite team
they parly games every week chase to get out on MNF and have no clue on how to handicap games
THEN there is The Middle spectrum the ones who watch lines study teams handicap the games and play smart !
ohhh BTW i had one of MY sports books Profile me 3 years ago !
YOU know how to spot this ?
GO in with out loggin in first record all the lines
THEN log IN and watch everp line change
YES Now i'am sharp player in their eyes
so i opend more accounts to offset the winnings
this way i only wager 2 - 500 on each game
instead of 1 - 2 thou
BUT you know what ? NOW i dont get more points when i want the DOG !
that extra point means a lot or that hook that wasnt there when i wasnt profiled appeared when they had me as a sharp player
some games it didnt matter beacuse the dog won out right anyway or the favorite of 10 won by 30
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ohhh BTW i had one of MY sports books Profile me 3 years ago !
YOU know how to spot this ?
GO in with out loggin in first record all the lines
THEN log IN and watch everp line change
YES Now i'am sharp player in their eyes
so i opend more accounts to offset the winnings
this way i only wager 2 - 500 on each game
instead of 1 - 2 thou
BUT you know what ? NOW i dont get more points when i want the DOG !
that extra point means a lot or that hook that wasnt there when i wasnt profiled appeared when they had me as a sharp player
some games it didnt matter beacuse the dog won out right anyway or the favorite of 10 won by 30
||peace.gif' border=0>
really interesting,If only crash maniac also put the names author who wrote the original piece.For instance,author claims that on person places 50k in bets and line does not move.Second player places 5k and the line moves.Sharp right?WRONG!To give an example like that is incredible nonsense.As one who has experience both sides of the counter and what i learned from square and(sharp),it amazes me that this fellow got paid to write that.To understand the las vegas sportsbook operation,please understand that they are run by accountants lol corporations if you will,not bookmakers.Meaning limits are extended only to players with casino action,slots tables etc...
For example book is 50k high already on usc and max is capped at 50k for example.Player a bets 50k on dog which book needs,why would they move a line,they need it to balance correct?(Sharp) bets 5k on usc,book does not need that, thenfor line moves.Right?To understand fundamental bookmaking and sticking to those principles will insure positive results long term.Understand that the principles will apply in any free market economy where supply and demand exist.Whether oil,soybeans,pork bellies etc etc...
If for example the operation is simply booking on faces,i will say that the operation is not run by a professional but one that prefers to take a gamble lol,in which case he should step on the other side if the counter.
point 2 is that the author says that sharps bet 6 games a weekend,while squres bet 1 or two or the entire card and than says that the pro recommends playing more in order to deal with the luck factor.Lol who is his editor?the piece contradicts itself between 2 paragraphs.Well what is it?bet one ,two six or the whole card.Didn't the pro say bet more games to even the luck factor?Isn't the (square oing so by betting the entire card?
It goes to show that people who write cannot do ,and they lead the blind.
Someone also said that the sharpest minds are the
linemakers.Second are the smarts.LOL.Thats why the group in charge of golf course develepmont here in las vegas beat the books for millions and they couldn't do anything about that but drag a case out of the FBI and make complete fools out of themselves in court.Charge was interstate gambling but actually it was bookmaker ass whooping that they coun't take||an_wink.gif' border=0>will be back to finish shortly
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really interesting,If only crash maniac also put the names author who wrote the original piece.For instance,author claims that on person places 50k in bets and line does not move.Second player places 5k and the line moves.Sharp right?WRONG!To give an example like that is incredible nonsense.As one who has experience both sides of the counter and what i learned from square and(sharp),it amazes me that this fellow got paid to write that.To understand the las vegas sportsbook operation,please understand that they are run by accountants lol corporations if you will,not bookmakers.Meaning limits are extended only to players with casino action,slots tables etc...
For example book is 50k high already on usc and max is capped at 50k for example.Player a bets 50k on dog which book needs,why would they move a line,they need it to balance correct?(Sharp) bets 5k on usc,book does not need that, thenfor line moves.Right?To understand fundamental bookmaking and sticking to those principles will insure positive results long term.Understand that the principles will apply in any free market economy where supply and demand exist.Whether oil,soybeans,pork bellies etc etc...
If for example the operation is simply booking on faces,i will say that the operation is not run by a professional but one that prefers to take a gamble lol,in which case he should step on the other side if the counter.
point 2 is that the author says that sharps bet 6 games a weekend,while squres bet 1 or two or the entire card and than says that the pro recommends playing more in order to deal with the luck factor.Lol who is his editor?the piece contradicts itself between 2 paragraphs.Well what is it?bet one ,two six or the whole card.Didn't the pro say bet more games to even the luck factor?Isn't the (square oing so by betting the entire card?
It goes to show that people who write cannot do ,and they lead the blind.
Someone also said that the sharpest minds are the
linemakers.Second are the smarts.LOL.Thats why the group in charge of golf course develepmont here in las vegas beat the books for millions and they couldn't do anything about that but drag a case out of the FBI and make complete fools out of themselves in court.Charge was interstate gambling but actually it was bookmaker ass whooping that they coun't take||an_wink.gif' border=0>will be back to finish shortly
Second comment is that a player claimed by watching and recording line moves the sportsbook operation deemed him a sharpie.How can i explain this?There are more important things in a las vegas sportsbook operation to be done than trying to figure out a sharp and a square by the management!!||an_roll_laugh.gif' border=0>Really!Cmon now.Also claims that the hook or full point is added on when he takes the fav and not there when he bets the dog.Which i reply,Why bet at the operation?A sharpie will never accept a number he does not like,a square will,and it is obvious that he states this.The actions speak for themselves.Claims that the team won by thirty points or more so IT DOESN'T MATTER!Well it does matter.If you want to tell the difference betweeen a sharp or a square,it means that everything matters to the sharp.A square always says it doesn't matter they won.A sharp knows that yes,team a won by thirty,but you keep on betting bad numbers you'll get you're ass kicked in the long run.And that what counts,the long run.Not the individual game.Basically everthing in life.||an_light.gif' border=0>
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Second comment is that a player claimed by watching and recording line moves the sportsbook operation deemed him a sharpie.How can i explain this?There are more important things in a las vegas sportsbook operation to be done than trying to figure out a sharp and a square by the management!!||an_roll_laugh.gif' border=0>Really!Cmon now.Also claims that the hook or full point is added on when he takes the fav and not there when he bets the dog.Which i reply,Why bet at the operation?A sharpie will never accept a number he does not like,a square will,and it is obvious that he states this.The actions speak for themselves.Claims that the team won by thirty points or more so IT DOESN'T MATTER!Well it does matter.If you want to tell the difference betweeen a sharp or a square,it means that everything matters to the sharp.A square always says it doesn't matter they won.A sharp knows that yes,team a won by thirty,but you keep on betting bad numbers you'll get you're ass kicked in the long run.And that what counts,the long run.Not the individual game.Basically everthing in life.||an_light.gif' border=0>
One linesman said that he interprets Roxy statement of linemaking being art and science.He believes the mathematical to be a technical part of bookmaking,which i ssume to be mathematical house advantages,straights,parlays,teasers,etc...he believes the art part to be anticipating bias and overall action.To which i reply is nonsense.Roxy means the mathematical meaning MATHEMATICAL.HOW ELSE CAN ANYONE INTERPRET THAT?Everyone uses points for,points against,yards,stricks,balls,era,etc etc..The linemaker must not deviate from that or else like i explained earlier he would be a gambler himself!
The art Roxy is talking about is basically his feel on what will split action.Wise and square combined.PERIOD.I will give you a prime example of how media will have something to do with this.This years superbowl involved colts versus the bears.Manning versus WHO?If for example Farve was playing Elway like a few years back,you could bet your balls the hype was 10 times more.meaning he would have to adjust the line for heavier that usual action Right?Just juice the over with the favorite ok.Thats the art of it.Sometimes the hype of the Number 2 versus the Number 3 is that so that the line is very fallible.That is when sharps understand when which lines are off.There are many criterias for playing a game,there is no system out there that will win over the long term.Remember that all it needs to be a loser is for the line to adjusted and then poof the advantage is nullified.In this day and age,the only way to beat the game is through a thorough understanding of probability and odds.That and a heck of a numbers value system beats the living shit out of the line.Remember that while squares take an hour or two to figure out the ballgames,me personally i take60 or more a week just for one sport.LOL it drives me nuts so i break during the football and only dabble part time in pro baskets.Full time is hoops and basketball,though i do know a few that beat the shit out of college football.
he also stated that oldtimers are probably the sharps.That is akin to saying that your 1970 car is better than my 2006 mercedes.In an age of supercomputers and handy algorithims for nerds like me,it is the only way to stay ahead.What worked for old timers in 1970,well ..let me say that they would get their ass handed to them.EVERYDAY!
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One linesman said that he interprets Roxy statement of linemaking being art and science.He believes the mathematical to be a technical part of bookmaking,which i ssume to be mathematical house advantages,straights,parlays,teasers,etc...he believes the art part to be anticipating bias and overall action.To which i reply is nonsense.Roxy means the mathematical meaning MATHEMATICAL.HOW ELSE CAN ANYONE INTERPRET THAT?Everyone uses points for,points against,yards,stricks,balls,era,etc etc..The linemaker must not deviate from that or else like i explained earlier he would be a gambler himself!
The art Roxy is talking about is basically his feel on what will split action.Wise and square combined.PERIOD.I will give you a prime example of how media will have something to do with this.This years superbowl involved colts versus the bears.Manning versus WHO?If for example Farve was playing Elway like a few years back,you could bet your balls the hype was 10 times more.meaning he would have to adjust the line for heavier that usual action Right?Just juice the over with the favorite ok.Thats the art of it.Sometimes the hype of the Number 2 versus the Number 3 is that so that the line is very fallible.That is when sharps understand when which lines are off.There are many criterias for playing a game,there is no system out there that will win over the long term.Remember that all it needs to be a loser is for the line to adjusted and then poof the advantage is nullified.In this day and age,the only way to beat the game is through a thorough understanding of probability and odds.That and a heck of a numbers value system beats the living shit out of the line.Remember that while squares take an hour or two to figure out the ballgames,me personally i take60 or more a week just for one sport.LOL it drives me nuts so i break during the football and only dabble part time in pro baskets.Full time is hoops and basketball,though i do know a few that beat the shit out of college football.
he also stated that oldtimers are probably the sharps.That is akin to saying that your 1970 car is better than my 2006 mercedes.In an age of supercomputers and handy algorithims for nerds like me,it is the only way to stay ahead.What worked for old timers in 1970,well ..let me say that they would get their ass handed to them.EVERYDAY!
Jeremy also asked how do you tell a sharp from a square?Well to tell you the truth there are many groups out there.Some of which lose so much money it ceases to amaze me.Me i'm a small timer.Make a very good living compared to your typical middle class joe.But you got to understand that its a job too.Whether i am betting with a bookie or a prop here in a Las Vegas sportsbook,i am putting a lot of hours figuring numbers and lines.Getting a scalp here and there,going for a middle,so on and so forth.A pro will always or in most cases lock in a profit,a no lose proposition if you will.But sometimes its a lonely life.There was a point where i lost so much money i felt i should of blown it on hookers and booze||an_cry.gif' border=0>But everything doesn't last forever and i was patient to ride it out.A pro always has a dream,and ever since i was 15 this is what i wanted.Thirteen years later it still drives me,but seriously i have my eye on the more conventional investments.Just glad i didn't drop a load on the las vegas housing market.LOL.Oh well maybe i can buy a place in Kona.At least if it goes down i'll be on oceanfront property.||an_wink.gif' border=0>To answer jeremy my good buddy,don't follow a sharp be one.Advice 1.Don't see the same picture like everyone else.Advice2.Dont handicap like everyone else.You'll end up selling books like Marc Lawrence.LOL.Advice 3.If it doesn't work try something new.Its not out of my playbook,its Thomas Edisons playbook||an_roll_laugh.gif' border=0>Good luck everybody and would like a few comments or questions if i can answer them i will thanks
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Jeremy also asked how do you tell a sharp from a square?Well to tell you the truth there are many groups out there.Some of which lose so much money it ceases to amaze me.Me i'm a small timer.Make a very good living compared to your typical middle class joe.But you got to understand that its a job too.Whether i am betting with a bookie or a prop here in a Las Vegas sportsbook,i am putting a lot of hours figuring numbers and lines.Getting a scalp here and there,going for a middle,so on and so forth.A pro will always or in most cases lock in a profit,a no lose proposition if you will.But sometimes its a lonely life.There was a point where i lost so much money i felt i should of blown it on hookers and booze||an_cry.gif' border=0>But everything doesn't last forever and i was patient to ride it out.A pro always has a dream,and ever since i was 15 this is what i wanted.Thirteen years later it still drives me,but seriously i have my eye on the more conventional investments.Just glad i didn't drop a load on the las vegas housing market.LOL.Oh well maybe i can buy a place in Kona.At least if it goes down i'll be on oceanfront property.||an_wink.gif' border=0>To answer jeremy my good buddy,don't follow a sharp be one.Advice 1.Don't see the same picture like everyone else.Advice2.Dont handicap like everyone else.You'll end up selling books like Marc Lawrence.LOL.Advice 3.If it doesn't work try something new.Its not out of my playbook,its Thomas Edisons playbook||an_roll_laugh.gif' border=0>Good luck everybody and would like a few comments or questions if i can answer them i will thanks
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