You can't pick and chose who you want as your examples for God having a positive/negative influence on their life.
If you want to use Ray Lewis as an example of Jesus/God having a positive influence on his life, then you need to use people like David Koresh for the negative side, Westboro Baptist Church as well.
A lot of good has been done in the name of God, so has a lot of evil.
You can't pick and chose who you want as your examples for God having a positive/negative influence on their life.
If you want to use Ray Lewis as an example of Jesus/God having a positive influence on his life, then you need to use people like David Koresh for the negative side, Westboro Baptist Church as well.
A lot of good has been done in the name of God, so has a lot of evil.
God clearly does not answer all, or even most, prayers. Even the holiest, best Christian people on earth experience horrible tragedy despite intense prayer.
Possibility 1: God picks and chooses who to listen to. So God answer's Ray Lewis to win the Super Bowl, but ignores the billion people starving at the moment
Possibility 2: Prayer does not work.
Holy people? Everyone falls short in the glory of God. No one is good.
God clearly does not answer all, or even most, prayers. Even the holiest, best Christian people on earth experience horrible tragedy despite intense prayer.
Possibility 1: God picks and chooses who to listen to. So God answer's Ray Lewis to win the Super Bowl, but ignores the billion people starving at the moment
Possibility 2: Prayer does not work.
Holy people? Everyone falls short in the glory of God. No one is good.
You can't pick and chose who you want as your examples for God having a positive/negative influence on their life.
If you want to use Ray Lewis as an example of Jesus/God having a positive influence on his life, then you need to use people like David Koresh for the negative side, Westboro Baptist Church as well.
A lot of good has been done in the name of God, so has a lot of evil.
Rather, i dont know anyone who was a non believer, turned to God, and their life turned for the worst. Again, examples using non extremists.
You can't pick and chose who you want as your examples for God having a positive/negative influence on their life.
If you want to use Ray Lewis as an example of Jesus/God having a positive influence on his life, then you need to use people like David Koresh for the negative side, Westboro Baptist Church as well.
A lot of good has been done in the name of God, so has a lot of evil.
Rather, i dont know anyone who was a non believer, turned to God, and their life turned for the worst. Again, examples using non extremists.
Rather, i dont know anyone who was a non believer, turned to God, and their life turned for the worst. Again, examples using non extremists.
What about people that give money to televangelist? Aren't they essentially being conned into giving money, for someone elses benefit, in expecting something in return that probably never happens?
Wouldn't they be better off not finding God and donating that money to charity with the expectations of nothing in return? Just the satisfaction of a good deed.
Essentially by "giving" money to God and being disappointed by the results, are they not worse off than in the beginning?
Rather, i dont know anyone who was a non believer, turned to God, and their life turned for the worst. Again, examples using non extremists.
What about people that give money to televangelist? Aren't they essentially being conned into giving money, for someone elses benefit, in expecting something in return that probably never happens?
Wouldn't they be better off not finding God and donating that money to charity with the expectations of nothing in return? Just the satisfaction of a good deed.
Essentially by "giving" money to God and being disappointed by the results, are they not worse off than in the beginning?
What about people that give money to televangelist? Aren't they essentially being conned into giving money, for someone elses benefit, in expecting something in return that probably never happens?
Wouldn't they be better off not finding God and donating that money to charity with the expectations of nothing in return? Just the satisfaction of a good deed.
Essentially by "giving" money to God and being disappointed by the results, are they not worse off than in the beginning?
What i am getting at is, i have heard plenty and plenty of examples of people who were alcoholics, into drugs, family problems, depression, suicidal etc etc, when they turned to God, they found peace and had a much better life. Simply comparing lives of before and after. I love my sports and there are numerous sportsman around the world that echo what i just said.
I havent seen some turn to God and their life becomes much worse. Again, i am talking about the average person, not extremists.
What about people that give money to televangelist? Aren't they essentially being conned into giving money, for someone elses benefit, in expecting something in return that probably never happens?
Wouldn't they be better off not finding God and donating that money to charity with the expectations of nothing in return? Just the satisfaction of a good deed.
Essentially by "giving" money to God and being disappointed by the results, are they not worse off than in the beginning?
What i am getting at is, i have heard plenty and plenty of examples of people who were alcoholics, into drugs, family problems, depression, suicidal etc etc, when they turned to God, they found peace and had a much better life. Simply comparing lives of before and after. I love my sports and there are numerous sportsman around the world that echo what i just said.
I havent seen some turn to God and their life becomes much worse. Again, i am talking about the average person, not extremists.
Rostos makes many good arguments in this thread against atheism and materialism, I don't see how one is subject to moral duties on a atheist and deterministic view. This really hurts my brain, thinking how someone can actually believe and be rational that there is only matter? If there is only matter where did the first matter come from? Scientists will never work this out, they shouldn't even speak about the origins of the universe, as their world views are irrational and logically flawed. Obviously i am not a atheist, but I know 100% that "there is something beyond material". However I am deist, not a theist as from what I know about religions they have too many contradictions.
In reference to Swiss's post... Why should we be moral?
Rostos makes many good arguments in this thread against atheism and materialism, I don't see how one is subject to moral duties on a atheist and deterministic view. This really hurts my brain, thinking how someone can actually believe and be rational that there is only matter? If there is only matter where did the first matter come from? Scientists will never work this out, they shouldn't even speak about the origins of the universe, as their world views are irrational and logically flawed. Obviously i am not a atheist, but I know 100% that "there is something beyond material". However I am deist, not a theist as from what I know about religions they have too many contradictions.
In reference to Swiss's post... Why should we be moral?
Ktrain in post 30# your argument imply's that the person in this case is ignorant. A god or no god can't help ignorance.
Assuming you are an atheist (correct me if i am wrong please)
Why would it be "wrong" to con someone for personal gain, if they are naive to being conned? Wouldn't it be advantages on Darwin view on survival the fittest within a naturalist view?
Ktrain in post 30# your argument imply's that the person in this case is ignorant. A god or no god can't help ignorance.
Assuming you are an atheist (correct me if i am wrong please)
Why would it be "wrong" to con someone for personal gain, if they are naive to being conned? Wouldn't it be advantages on Darwin view on survival the fittest within a naturalist view?
Rather, i dont know anyone who was a non believer, turned to God, and their life turned for the worst. Again, examples using non extremists.
First, why rule out extremists?
Second, people generally turn to God when they hit rock bottom. No where to go but up.
And, as far as Pascal's wager goes, how do we know God won't send all the believers to hell and all the atheists to heaven? Maybe he has as sense of humor, or doesn't like fawning sycophants?
Rather, i dont know anyone who was a non believer, turned to God, and their life turned for the worst. Again, examples using non extremists.
First, why rule out extremists?
Second, people generally turn to God when they hit rock bottom. No where to go but up.
And, as far as Pascal's wager goes, how do we know God won't send all the believers to hell and all the atheists to heaven? Maybe he has as sense of humor, or doesn't like fawning sycophants?
I'm on the fence about whether there is a God or not. Science hasn't proven there isn't a God and religion hasn't proven to me there is. So until one side proves something, I'm on the fence.
What I am against is religion. Perverting God's name(assuming there is one) to promote their own beliefs or interests. I.E. televangelist. I have never read the bible, quran, or any other religious book, but I have never heard of anyone say that these books support the manipulation of less intelligent people or people that are struggling in life.
Maybe I am wrong about that, if I am please let me know.
The trouble I have with Rostos argument is that he says phrases like "the average person" and "excluding extremist".
You can't exclude the extremist in cases and know one knows what happens with "the average person" because we don't know all the stories of the average person.
That's like saying Ray Lewis is a shining example of turning to God that benefitted his life.....if you exclude his involvement in a double homicide and fathering 6 kids by 4 women.
You can't leave out all sides of an argument to justify one particular side.
I'm on the fence about whether there is a God or not. Science hasn't proven there isn't a God and religion hasn't proven to me there is. So until one side proves something, I'm on the fence.
What I am against is religion. Perverting God's name(assuming there is one) to promote their own beliefs or interests. I.E. televangelist. I have never read the bible, quran, or any other religious book, but I have never heard of anyone say that these books support the manipulation of less intelligent people or people that are struggling in life.
Maybe I am wrong about that, if I am please let me know.
The trouble I have with Rostos argument is that he says phrases like "the average person" and "excluding extremist".
You can't exclude the extremist in cases and know one knows what happens with "the average person" because we don't know all the stories of the average person.
That's like saying Ray Lewis is a shining example of turning to God that benefitted his life.....if you exclude his involvement in a double homicide and fathering 6 kids by 4 women.
You can't leave out all sides of an argument to justify one particular side.
Second, people generally turn to God when they hit rock bottom. No where to go but up.
Of course they can go further down. I have heard many say they were on the cusp of suicide.
And, as far as Pascal's wager goes, how do we know God won't send all the believers to hell and all the atheists to heaven? Maybe he has as sense of humor, or doesn't like fawning sycophants?
Second, people generally turn to God when they hit rock bottom. No where to go but up.
Of course they can go further down. I have heard many say they were on the cusp of suicide.
And, as far as Pascal's wager goes, how do we know God won't send all the believers to hell and all the atheists to heaven? Maybe he has as sense of humor, or doesn't like fawning sycophants?
What i am getting at is, i have heard plenty and plenty of examples of people who were alcoholics, into drugs, family problems, depression, suicidal etc etc, when they turned to God, they found peace and had a much better life. Simply comparing lives of before and after. I love my sports and there are numerous sportsman around the world that echo what i just said.
I havent seen some turn to God and their life becomes much worse. Again, i am talking about the average person, not extremists.
What i am getting at is, i have heard plenty and plenty of examples of people who were alcoholics, into drugs, family problems, depression, suicidal etc etc, when they turned to God, they found peace and had a much better life. Simply comparing lives of before and after. I love my sports and there are numerous sportsman around the world that echo what i just said.
I havent seen some turn to God and their life becomes much worse. Again, i am talking about the average person, not extremists.
that he would create sentient beings and give them free will for the sole purpose that they could either: 1) love him; 2) reject him and burn in hell forever.
This is an all-powerful, all-knowing supreme being here, folks, who apparently needs so much love and attention he created little feeble creatures to praise him. AND he brings them into the world knowing so many will suffer in the world, and so many will be tortured forever in hell. Questionable.
Does God not get enough attention from the angels or what's up?
Thanks
Making a post like this clearly shows you don't understand the concept of god.
I'm not saying I am a big believer but I do understand the concept very well and it is a great, great concept.
that he would create sentient beings and give them free will for the sole purpose that they could either: 1) love him; 2) reject him and burn in hell forever.
This is an all-powerful, all-knowing supreme being here, folks, who apparently needs so much love and attention he created little feeble creatures to praise him. AND he brings them into the world knowing so many will suffer in the world, and so many will be tortured forever in hell. Questionable.
Does God not get enough attention from the angels or what's up?
Thanks
Making a post like this clearly shows you don't understand the concept of god.
I'm not saying I am a big believer but I do understand the concept very well and it is a great, great concept.
God clearly does not answer all, or even most, prayers. Even the holiest, best Christian people on earth experience horrible tragedy despite intense prayer.
Possibility 1: God picks and chooses who to listen to. So God answer's Ray Lewis to win the Super Bowl, but ignores the billion people starving at the moment
Possibility 2: Prayer does not work.
One prays to ask god for wisdom, it is the wisdom gained that helps you win the SB, in other words search and you shall find.
Search hard enough for the answer on how to win SB's and you shall find it , praying to god is to humble yourself as in saying I don't have the answer and I need help, I find this concept very real and true.
Poeple starving is control by corruption in those countries caused by men who choose evil over good, the very thing god warned against.
God does not cause hunger, man does, men that choose evil over good.
God clearly does not answer all, or even most, prayers. Even the holiest, best Christian people on earth experience horrible tragedy despite intense prayer.
Possibility 1: God picks and chooses who to listen to. So God answer's Ray Lewis to win the Super Bowl, but ignores the billion people starving at the moment
Possibility 2: Prayer does not work.
One prays to ask god for wisdom, it is the wisdom gained that helps you win the SB, in other words search and you shall find.
Search hard enough for the answer on how to win SB's and you shall find it , praying to god is to humble yourself as in saying I don't have the answer and I need help, I find this concept very real and true.
Poeple starving is control by corruption in those countries caused by men who choose evil over good, the very thing god warned against.
God does not cause hunger, man does, men that choose evil over good.
Why would he create something that he knows will fail the "test"?
He did not create something he knew would fail the test.
He gave each person free will to choose, for without free will there could be no test, without free will we all would be programed robots.
It's each persons desire to be great or be god instead of whorshipping god that is your down-fall.
That's called ego.
It is not gods fault most people choose evil over good, it is each persons fault that chooses such, to think differently shows lack of TAKING RESPONASIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN ACTIONS.
You and only you are responsible for your actions, god is not, be they good or bad.
No excuses, but ego loves excuses, hence your down-fall.
When you find yourself making excuses for your actions, look in the mirror and know it's on you.
Why would he create something that he knows will fail the "test"?
He did not create something he knew would fail the test.
He gave each person free will to choose, for without free will there could be no test, without free will we all would be programed robots.
It's each persons desire to be great or be god instead of whorshipping god that is your down-fall.
That's called ego.
It is not gods fault most people choose evil over good, it is each persons fault that chooses such, to think differently shows lack of TAKING RESPONASIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN ACTIONS.
You and only you are responsible for your actions, god is not, be they good or bad.
No excuses, but ego loves excuses, hence your down-fall.
When you find yourself making excuses for your actions, look in the mirror and know it's on you.
[Quote: Originally Posted by DoubleUp4Life] GOD is Real ... Faith is Needed ***
and so is the DEVIL . and He Loves the EVIL that Men do.
We live in very rough world (earth)
But EVERYDAY you awake with Good health is a BLESSING
The more Patient,Forgiving,understanding,accepting and Loving you are towards others will usually serve you well during your stay here on Earth.
And even more so when you Leave
[/Quote
Those are very good concepts of patience, undestanding and forgiveness, those are concepts of god that when practiced will make your life a better life and you would be surprised at how much more you will gain in life when you practice such things.
[Quote: Originally Posted by DoubleUp4Life] GOD is Real ... Faith is Needed ***
and so is the DEVIL . and He Loves the EVIL that Men do.
We live in very rough world (earth)
But EVERYDAY you awake with Good health is a BLESSING
The more Patient,Forgiving,understanding,accepting and Loving you are towards others will usually serve you well during your stay here on Earth.
And even more so when you Leave
[/Quote
Those are very good concepts of patience, undestanding and forgiveness, those are concepts of god that when practiced will make your life a better life and you would be surprised at how much more you will gain in life when you practice such things.
"it's no God's fault that most people choose evil over good"
I have questions about this statement.
1) What is the definition of evil in this context?
Are we talking Hitler evil, Sandusky evil, or just not living to the letter of a holy book evil, or committing evil acts in a more common sense term?
2) I'm usually a big believer in taking responsibilities for one's own actions. However we aren't all born into the same circumstances, or a level playing field in life.
Is there any distinction made by God as to this? Especially when considering where someone is born will have a profound impact on what religion they choose.
3) What about people who committ crimes in the name of their God? i.e. killing an infidel.
"it's no God's fault that most people choose evil over good"
I have questions about this statement.
1) What is the definition of evil in this context?
Are we talking Hitler evil, Sandusky evil, or just not living to the letter of a holy book evil, or committing evil acts in a more common sense term?
2) I'm usually a big believer in taking responsibilities for one's own actions. However we aren't all born into the same circumstances, or a level playing field in life.
Is there any distinction made by God as to this? Especially when considering where someone is born will have a profound impact on what religion they choose.
3) What about people who committ crimes in the name of their God? i.e. killing an infidel.
So a billion innocent people suffer because of the actions of a few and god is powerless to it or just content
There is some devout believer and charitable person out there who has a week old son who will die despite the prayer from hundreds of people.
When he dies, it was his "plan" to bring a baby into the world to suffer and die only to torture the good parents. If he doesn't, god somehow decided to spare this child, yet let countless others die.
And so we return to: 1) God arbitrarily picks and chooses 2) Prayer doesn't work
So a billion innocent people suffer because of the actions of a few and god is powerless to it or just content
There is some devout believer and charitable person out there who has a week old son who will die despite the prayer from hundreds of people.
When he dies, it was his "plan" to bring a baby into the world to suffer and die only to torture the good parents. If he doesn't, god somehow decided to spare this child, yet let countless others die.
And so we return to: 1) God arbitrarily picks and chooses 2) Prayer doesn't work
All people have different views on morality. It really depends on your world view. For example the current paradime in the science community (led by Sam Harris) is that we DON'T have free will, if you accept this position, how can one choose to be moral in the absence of having the ability to make a decision that is not determined? I for one do believe we have free will and reject the premise of Sam Harris.
If one is an atheist(which I am not) there is no grounds for moral duties! If we prescribe to the atheist point of view, morality is merely a socially biological advantages and there is no objective morality (basically we all have different opinions). Thus giving us no valid reason to act moral in a situation that is not in our best self interest.
Then we have a question what if one doesn't know that killing is wrong? Is he/she immoral?
Morality is really an interesting topic and we need to have more discussion and the children in school taught ethic!
All people have different views on morality. It really depends on your world view. For example the current paradime in the science community (led by Sam Harris) is that we DON'T have free will, if you accept this position, how can one choose to be moral in the absence of having the ability to make a decision that is not determined? I for one do believe we have free will and reject the premise of Sam Harris.
If one is an atheist(which I am not) there is no grounds for moral duties! If we prescribe to the atheist point of view, morality is merely a socially biological advantages and there is no objective morality (basically we all have different opinions). Thus giving us no valid reason to act moral in a situation that is not in our best self interest.
Then we have a question what if one doesn't know that killing is wrong? Is he/she immoral?
Morality is really an interesting topic and we need to have more discussion and the children in school taught ethic!
Barrelldin - I agree with your 2 point If it is reference to main stream religions. The truth of the matter is that all religions have a large number of self contradictions.
May I ask what position do you hold? Do you consider yourself an atheist? Deist? Agnostic? Etc
Barrelldin - I agree with your 2 point If it is reference to main stream religions. The truth of the matter is that all religions have a large number of self contradictions.
May I ask what position do you hold? Do you consider yourself an atheist? Deist? Agnostic? Etc
Barrelldin - I agree with your 2 point If it is reference to main stream religions. The truth of the matter is that all religions have a large number of self contradictions.
May I ask what position do you hold? Do you consider yourself an atheist? Deist? Agnostic? Etc
let me try and answer that and you or someone can tell me what i am. first, i'm definitely an atheist because there have been hundreds of gods created over the years and i'm not really biuying just about all of them. so, to the extent that i reject one or more of those gods, that makes me an atheist by definition.
secondly, i know for a fact, to the extent i know any facts to be true, that god exists. god is simply whatever created the universe. what that is, i have no clue. i'm guessing it's some scientific biochemical, biophysical phenomena that we have no ability to understand. for that reason, i have no interest in trying to understand it. likewise, i have no interest in trying to appease it.
where that simple fact ends and religion begins, almost all of it is garbage to me. i basically put politics, media and religion in the same category. it's utility only has significance insofar as it furthers the interests of the people pushing it.
Barrelldin - I agree with your 2 point If it is reference to main stream religions. The truth of the matter is that all religions have a large number of self contradictions.
May I ask what position do you hold? Do you consider yourself an atheist? Deist? Agnostic? Etc
let me try and answer that and you or someone can tell me what i am. first, i'm definitely an atheist because there have been hundreds of gods created over the years and i'm not really biuying just about all of them. so, to the extent that i reject one or more of those gods, that makes me an atheist by definition.
secondly, i know for a fact, to the extent i know any facts to be true, that god exists. god is simply whatever created the universe. what that is, i have no clue. i'm guessing it's some scientific biochemical, biophysical phenomena that we have no ability to understand. for that reason, i have no interest in trying to understand it. likewise, i have no interest in trying to appease it.
where that simple fact ends and religion begins, almost all of it is garbage to me. i basically put politics, media and religion in the same category. it's utility only has significance insofar as it furthers the interests of the people pushing it.
I wouldn't label myself anything, though I believe there probably isn't a God. It's a non issue and usually don't talk about it. First time in years I've posted something about God on the internet. Just amusing to think about the absurdities when it's broken down.
Atheists are some of the biggest self-righteous, opinionated, progressive tools on the planet. I used to be one. Now I'd rather be in the company of moderate religious folk if anything.
I wouldn't label myself anything, though I believe there probably isn't a God. It's a non issue and usually don't talk about it. First time in years I've posted something about God on the internet. Just amusing to think about the absurdities when it's broken down.
Atheists are some of the biggest self-righteous, opinionated, progressive tools on the planet. I used to be one. Now I'd rather be in the company of moderate religious folk if anything.
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