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Author: [MLB Betting] Topic: Mark Grace Deserves Hall Consideration...
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#26
Posted: 2/13/2009 3:03:25 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by KingKappy128:

Mark Grace for Hall of Fame is this thread a joke?

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#27
Posted: 2/13/2009 3:26:20 PM
AJ you are a little off on this. The reason why he had less numbers is yes, because he had fewer AB's....but he'll end up with fewer ABs because he's not as good a player. He's had 12 years against Grace's 16......
 
Think about it.....
 
The reason why you are only comparing one stat from those other guys against Grace, is because you know they're not as good in other categories. And by the way....I wasn't comparing them to Grace. YOU brought up Casey, and I clearly showed who has had the better career. I am not saying your comparison is comletely invalid. You brought up a good player, and a good reason why Grace isn't getting HOF consideration. I compliment you on giving a good argument, but it only explains that Grace isn't a great player....not that he's only as good as Casey. He's better, as I have shown.
 
Now don't get me wrong, Grace's career isn't TONS better than Casey's now that we've seen them through, just better by a good margin.. Now, if Casey were to play 4 more years and somehow get 225 hits a year (impossible) and 100 RBI and Runs scored a year (LOL), then he would pass Grace in numbers. Then you could say he's had a better career.
 
Those stats you gave, the Per Ab stats, are good comparisons IF  Casey was good enough to last the same amount of time as Grace. He won't. And like you said, Casey isn't as good.
 
And remember,  per AB stuff is skewed to players that only play a few years, b/c then you don't deal with the end years, when a player is on the downside. I mean, at some point, person Allen's per AB stats were as good as Hank Aaron and Mickey Mantle's....when he was like 25 years old and compared against their WHOLE careers. But that doesn't last long.
 
Again, I agree Grace is not a Hall of Famer. But those stats you give aren't a good reason. If Grace would have somehow lasted 4 more years at the pace YOU presented in those stats, he would have had 3000 hits. Automatic HOF. So there goes that argument. You have to take in the whole thing, the whole career. And because Grace wasn't great enough to last longer at a great pace...he didn't end up with the counting stats. His numbers were good, but not great. So we agree on his not being in the Hall. Just different reasons.
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#28
Posted: 2/13/2009 3:33:32 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by AJPierzynski:

The guy wasnt much better than Sean Casey.

You know what? Since you did say that at the beginning, I have to give you credit, Just pointing out that Grace's career is better, because he was good enough to play more for a longer period. So I don't mean to come off so damn critical. We need more AJ Pierzynski's not less lol

 

Good stuff man.

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#29
Posted: 2/13/2009 3:54:01 PM
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#30
Posted: 2/13/2009 4:09:24 PM
Casheasy...I have already said a couple of times that Grace was the better player, there is no question about it. He just wasnt much better than Casey. While a good hitter, I think we can all agree Casey wasnt anything too special. My point is, if Grace isnt much better than this guy that isnt anything special, then "Grace" and "Hall of Fame" dont deserve to be in the same sentence.

Keep in mind Casey has been battling injuries throughout his career. He played less than 140 games in 8 of his 12 years while Grace played more than 140 in 12 of his 16 years. Casey hit .322 and .296 the last two years, so its not like he isnt good enough anymore. He could have started on a lot of teams last year but was stuck on the bench because of a stacked red sox lineup. Grace has stayed relatively healthy throughout his career and was a loser for his first 13 years until he finally left the scrubs. Wasnt hard to get playing time on the northside. At 3,000 more at bats, lets call that 5 years (even though its a little more). If Casey stayed healthy for all 5 years he would need 182 hits per year, 8.5 hr's, 82 rbi's per year to pass Grace's numbers. Very doable.

The reason I only compared one stat from those guys is because 2 of them are still playing and they need time to pass some of his numbers. If you want to look at Finley's final numbers he had more hr's, rbi's, runs, hits, and sb's than grace with an identical slg %. Steve Finley certainly isnt a hall of famer and he beats Grace in most of the big categories.

Again, Grace had the better overall career but when both were healthy there wasnt much of a difference.

I guess my inital post of grace not being much better than casey got taken the wrong way. I didnt mean overall career numbers I meant what each of them brought when healthy.

At least you can give a good argument unlike osirus and samuelsosa
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#31
Posted: 2/13/2009 4:11:20 PM
First of all, Shawon Dunston should have given half of his salary each year to Grace for saving his behind from every thrown Dunston dumped 5 feet short.
 
Grace had a great BA, not far from 2500 hits, best 1B fielder in at least the NL for years and led the decade of the 90's in hits, including doubles. All good stuff.
 
But, let's look at the cacts...I am a lifelong Cub fan, Grace fan and season ticket holder who has saw the guy play live and upfornt hundreds of time, but Hall of Fame? No way!
 
Especially, since SANTO isn't in. Having said this, when they let mediocre players like Rizzuto in, and  good glove, small hit guys like Bill Maseroski and even Nellie Fox, then maybe Grace deserves some consideration, but I really think not.
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#32
Posted: 2/13/2009 4:11:58 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by casheasy:

You know what? Since you did say that at the beginning, I have to give you credit, Just pointing out that Grace's career is better, because he was good enough to play more for a longer period. So I don't mean to come off so damn critical. We need more AJ Pierzynski's not less lol

 

Good stuff man.



More of me

Less of Osirus who goes around calling people dumbasses but yet gives some of the stupidest quotes you'll ever read
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#33
Posted: 2/13/2009 4:13:20 PM
PS..my grammar sucks...chalk it up to the Catholic school education.
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#34
Posted: 2/13/2009 4:42:48 PM
"If Casey stayed healthy for all 5 years he would need 182 hits per year, 8.5 hr's, 82 rbi's per year to pass Grace's numbers. Very doable."
Dammit Aj
 
I just started reading your posts here in this forum and already I am sticking up for you. But that "very doable" stuff......he's only gotten 182 TWICE in his career. So it wouldn't happen, as we've seen with the past few years of his career.
 
Anyway, it's nice to have an intelligent baseball guy in here.
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#35
Posted: 2/13/2009 4:59:46 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by casheasy:

"If Casey stayed healthy for all 5 years he would need 182 hits per year, 8.5 hr's, 82 rbi's per year to pass Grace's numbers. Very doable."
Dammit Aj
 
I just started reading your posts here in this forum and already I am sticking up for you. But that "very doable" stuff......he's only gotten 182 TWICE in his career. So it wouldn't happen, as we've seen with the past few years of his career.
 
Anyway, it's nice to have an intelligent baseball guy in here.


Remember that was only "if" he stayed healthy. The most at bats he ever had was 594 and he had 192 hits that year. Followed by 167 hits in 573 at bats and then 185 hits in 571 at bats. If he had the at bats it could be doable.
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#36
Posted: 2/13/2009 5:25:13 PM
the Hall you say......................
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#37
Posted: 2/14/2009 4:55:52 PM
respectfully,,,,,,,,,,,,,(as much as a like grace and hate agreeing with that person aj),,,i disagree. 
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#38
Posted: 2/14/2009 5:04:05 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by cacabware:

respectfully,,,,,,,,,,,,,(as much as a like grace and hate agreeing with that person aj),,,i disagree. 


Bitter cubs fans ...you're team sucks so you take it out on white sox fans. Its pretty funny actually.
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#39
Posted: 2/15/2009 4:41:42 PM
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#40
Posted: 1/23/2010 12:49:03 PM
I think if you REALLY consider the glove of a player, Grace deserves consideration...He was the best defensive first baseman in baseball during his era.(along with JT Snow) He never cheated and led the decade in hits...The power numbers aren't there but if Ozzie Smith and Nelli Fox can get in with .250 averages...Grace does deserve consideration...
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#41
Posted: 1/23/2010 1:13:27 PM
Mark Grace 19 points higher career OPS than Andrew Dawson.  I wouldn't have put him in before, but if Andre Dawson is HOF-worthty then changes the standard and Grace is more worthy than Dawson.  Grace had 24 pts higher avg, 60 points higher obp, 19 points higher ops.  Their OPS+ was identical.

Plus Grace was a clutch postseason performer and he has a ring.
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#42
Posted: 1/23/2010 1:18:53 PM
And as for Sean Casey he might have been worthy of consideration, but he just didn't play long enough.  He had 8 seasons over 11 games; Grace had 15.  Pretty big difference.  15 seasons (16 total) is enough longevity.  8-10 is just not enough.
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#43
Posted: 1/23/2010 1:19:14 PM
8 seasons over 112 games.
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#44
Posted: 1/25/2010 1:17:08 AM
I was a big Mark Grace fan. I was also a big Bill Buckner fan. Both players were outstanding players, but in my opinion, not Hall of Famers similar to Keith Hernandez.

The HOF is becoming more and more watered down. Are these guys the Ty Cobbs, Babe Ruths, Lou Gehrigs, Hank Aarons or Willie Mays of their era?

I say absolutely not. They were both solid ballplayers, who had a few outstanding years.

I believe Grace was a 3 time all star who played in 2245 games, hit .303 with 1179 runs, 173 career HR's, 1146 RBI's, 70 SB's and a very respectable .383 OB% and slugging % of .442. He was Rookie of the Year, a 4 time gold glove winner and finished in the top 20 for MVP 4 times.

Billy Buckner I believe was a one time all star, played 2517 games, had 9397 at bats, 1077 runs scored with a .289 average, 174 HR's, 1208 RBI's, 183 SB's, but a low OB% at .321 and slugging % of .408. He finished in the Top 20 for MVP 4 times.

Herenandez played 2088 games, had 7370 at bats, hit .296 with 1124 runs, 162 HR's, 1071 RBI's, 98 SB's, with a very respectable .384 OB% and and .436 slugging %. He was a 5 time all-star with 10 Golden Gloves, won a batting title, an MVP award and was in the top 20 of MVP voting 6 times.

All were outstanding fielders.

All were great players to have on your team and were pure natural hitters, but I think it's a tremendous stretch to say they were Hall of Famers Grace and Buckner weren't even considered All-Stars all too often. All 3 players were similar but probably don't deserve to be in.

Having said that, there are many others recently who don't belong in and Andre Dawson, as much as I also liked him, probably doesn't totally deserve to be there.
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#45
Posted: 1/25/2010 12:19:32 PM
AJ......your back!
 
 
I'm with GAME on this one...I loved Mark Grace as both a hitter and as a great first baseman.....in fact, SHAWON Dunston should have given him half of his salary for saving all of the bad throws that bounced in to first base.
 
But Hall of Fame? No way. If they let Grace in, then there are probably 10 other first basemen that should get in....
 
 
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#46
Posted: 1/25/2010 3:14:50 PM
A year later and Mark Grace and Hall of Fame still don't belong in the same sentence
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