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Author: [Politics] Topic: Romney's 2011 Tax Return
lordspoint
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#26
Posted: 9/22/2012 8:41:23 PM

that's what audits are for.

And I know you guys know that the accounts and deferred management fees are not uncommon...........it's not like he is a genious who was the 1st to figure out how to navigate through IRS loopholes.....he is merely following a whole host of others before him who have done and continue to do the same things.

And I have more confidence voting for someone who knows something about this than someone that hasnt a clue (Obama).

 

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#27
Posted: 9/22/2012 8:46:18 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by lordspoint:

that's what audits are for.

And I know you guys know that the accounts and deferred management fees are not uncommon...........it's not like he is a genious who was the 1st to figure out how to navigate through IRS loopholes.....he is merely following a whole host of others before him who have done and continue to do the same things.

And I have more confidence voting for someone who knows something about this than someone that hasnt a clue (Obama).

 


The HUGE difference is that Romney is the guy who is running for president and doing so largely on the platform that everybody needs to do their fair share. Yet he is manipulating the system any way possible.  
Big difference there Lords 
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lordspoint
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#28
Posted: 9/22/2012 10:22:27 PM
Matt, I think paying $2M is indeed paying his fair share.
Why should he not use the tax code?
If you can show me that Obama took zero deductions allowed by the code then I will tip my hat to him but I would think he is an idiot.
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lordspoint
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#29
Posted: 9/22/2012 10:24:48 PM
Look, I am not a huge fan of either candidate but I won't base my decision on tax deductions made by either guy.
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#30
Posted: 9/22/2012 11:30:53 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by lordspoint:

Matt, I think paying $2M is indeed paying his fair share.
Why should he not use the tax code?
If you can show me that Obama took zero deductions allowed by the code then I will tip my hat to him but I would think he is an idiot.

Lords -- 2M is indeed a lot of money. There is no doubt that it is a sum  that exceeds almost everyone else but... Lets put this in some number that are easy to understand.

Lets assume that he makes $100 a year that means he pays $14 in taxes (based on his 14% rate). Now lets say that a guy like you and me who pays 25% in taxes. That means $25 per $100.  So right there is an $11 per $100 discrepancy. That is huge. That is huge in terms of relative dollars when you are talking about a guy who makes millions of millions of dollars compared to the majority of people.

So yea he pays more in absolute dollars but relatively you and I are doing MUCH more.  Once again it is the difference between absolute and relative. that is not a trivial difference.

It becomes much worse when you are talking about a guy who is running on the platform of everybody doing their far share. That platform is laughable when he is not doing is his share compared to the masses.

It is pretty simple math.  
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#31
Posted: 9/22/2012 11:40:51 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by lordspoint:

Matt, I think paying $2M is indeed paying his fair share.

eWhy should he not use the tax cod?
If you can show me that Obama took zero deductions allowed by the code then I will tip my hat to him but I would think he is an idiot.

He has the luxury of using the tax code. No argument here as the tax codes are in place. But guess what -- your average person, including you and I as well as the 47% that he attacks, do not have the luxury / access of using the tax code.  My point is do not get on your high horse (speaking to Mitt not you) about paying your fair share when you are doing all you can do to get around paying your fair share. It screams of hypocrisy (an by the way is what I think may kill him in this election).

 


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#32
Posted: 9/23/2012 2:41:20 AM

Great points Matt

 

The right wingers never grasp that and instead just use the arguement, that the fatcats pay a lot of money.  They always leave out the fact that the fatcats also make alot of money.

While the rest of us arent making millions, yet pay a higher percentage then millionaires and billionaires.  Something is seriously wrong

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#33
Posted: 9/23/2012 8:55:07 AM

you guys should be up in arms over the code - not up arms over people who use the code.

I assume both of you took deductions?

And Matt you can speak of relative $$ all day but most of his money is not from income it is froim dividends and is taxed at 15% by the current laws that are written.,.....again, attack the code not the people.

 

 

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#34
Posted: 9/23/2012 8:55:51 AM

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

  • The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
  • The fifth would pay $1.
  • The sixth would pay $3.
  • The seventh would pay $7.
  • The eighth would pay $12.
  • The ninth would pay $18.
  • The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers", he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20". Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share?"

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:

  • The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
  • The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
  • The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
  • The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
  • The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
  • The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, "but he got $10!" "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!" "That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!" "Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!" The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.

Professor of Economics, University of Georgia

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#35
Posted: 9/23/2012 10:21:26 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by lordspoint:

you guys should be up in arms over the code - not up arms over people who use the code.

I assume both of you took deductions?

And Matt you can speak of relative $$ all day but most of his money is not from income it is froim dividends and is taxed at 15% by the current laws that are written.,.....again, attack the code not the people.

 

 


Admittingly there is much about taxes / tax codes etc that I do not understand.  But on the surface (an with what I do know) this makes it even worse.

For discussion purposes lets say that with no loop holes etc... Mitt should be taxed at 35%. And much of his earnings are from dividends which by code are taxed at 15%. 

Than if he was not trying to "manipulate" the system than the 15% should drive his average tax lower than 35% but still above 15%.  

However, he came out and said that he paid just over 14% in taxes. Based on my example above (probably an overly simplistic scenario by the way) that would mean that all of his non-dividend taxes are paid at a rate well below 14% and that the number is only at 14% because the dividend rate of 15% is driving the average up.

Again if I took deductions or not is somewhat beside the point. I am not running for president on the platform that everybody needs to do their fair share while at the very same time trying my hardest to manipulate the system in every way possible. 


   
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#36
Posted: 9/23/2012 11:05:14 AM

Matt define fair share please.

I think giving the feds $2M is a fair share regardless of how much money you made..thats my opinion regardless if you are running for prez .

 

 

 

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#37
Posted: 9/23/2012 11:06:35 AM

Matt

Romney listed no income from wages, salaries or tips on his tax return

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#38
Posted: 9/23/2012 1:52:25 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by lordspoint:

Matt define fair share please.

I think giving the feds $2M is a fair share regardless of how much money you made..thats my opinion regardless if you are running for prez .

 

 

 


I think fair share would be an equal percentage for all people regardless of whether their income stems from dividends, wages, etc. 

It's hard to argue against anyone's tax liability when everyone pays the same percentage, regardless of how that income is earned. 

I agree with Mattbrot, huge difference between relative and absolute in this case. I don't think there is any amount that is too much, if it is compared properly to how much that person earned. 

If Mitt earned a billion I would expect him to pay the same relative percentage as the average U.S. worker. Especially since that average worker most likely isn't putting money in off shore accounts or manipulating the tax code, even if it is legal. 

Congrats to Mitt for being so well adept with working the tax code to his advantage. However, it makes me want to vote for him even less now. It also makes me want to vote for Gary Johnson even more. 
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#39
Posted: 9/23/2012 1:55:11 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by lordspoint:

Matt define fair share please.

I think giving the feds $2M is a fair share regardless of how much money you made..thats my opinion regardless if you are running for prez .

 

 

 


It sounds like you believe there should be a ceiling on the amount of taxes an individual pays? If that is the case, are you in favor of a ceiling on the amount an individual can earn as well? 
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#40
Posted: 9/23/2012 2:16:10 PM

No Lords 2 million isnt a lot if the guy makes a lot.

You have to use some type of percentage system or once again the system will just benefit the rich, if the amount of taxes they pays just tops out at a certain number.

Use your 2 million dollars as an example, if the guy makes a 100 million and tops out at 2 million in taxes {because you feel thats a lot of money to pay} then he will be basically paying 2 percent in taxes, while the middle class guy will always be paying over 20 percent in taxes.

sure the rich guy pays more then the middle class guy, but the middle class guy will actually be paying more in taxes realitive to his income.

Sorry but your type of system wont work in our society.

Once again a right winger trying to off the fatcats

It should be one flat tax with no fancy loopholes

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#41
Posted: 9/23/2012 2:42:10 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Ktrain:


I think fair share would be an equal percentage for all people regardless of whether their income stems from dividends, wages, etc. 

It's hard to argue against anyone's tax liability when everyone pays the same percentage, regardless of how that income is earned. 

I agree with Mattbrot, huge difference between relative and absolute in this case. I don't think there is any amount that is too much, if it is compared properly to how much that person earned. 

If Mitt earned a billion I would expect him to pay the same relative percentage as the average U.S. worker. Especially since that average worker most likely isn't putting money in off shore accounts or manipulating the tax code, even if it is legal. 

Congrats to Mitt for being so well adept with working the tax code to his advantage. However, it makes me want to vote for him even less now. It also makes me want to vote for Gary Johnson even more. 

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#42
Posted: 9/23/2012 2:42:38 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by cd329:

No Lords 2 million isnt a lot if the guy makes a lot.

You have to use some type of percentage system or once again the system will just benefit the rich, if the amount of taxes they pays just tops out at a certain number.

Use your 2 million dollars as an example, if the guy makes a 100 million and tops out at 2 million in taxes {because you feel thats a lot of money to pay} then he will be basically paying 2 percent in taxes, while the middle class guy will always be paying over 20 percent in taxes.

sure the rich guy pays more then the middle class guy, but the middle class guy will actually be paying more in taxes realitive to his income.

Sorry but your type of system wont work in our society.

Once again a right winger trying to off the fatcats

It should be one flat tax with no fancy loopholes


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#43
Posted: 9/23/2012 2:46:46 PM
It is an extremely easy concept. I do not care if it means paying 10 mil in taxes if you make that money. If you want others to pay say 25% for example than you need to pay 25% (this does not even take into account the theory of rich paying a higher % which is another argument and not one I want to get into). 

This is not a novel concept in life.


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#44
Posted: 9/23/2012 2:48:02 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by lordspoint:

Matt

Romney listed no income from wages, salaries or tips on his tax return


fair enough - but then how does he go from a 15% on dividends to paying 14% in taxes. I assume this means that he paid even less for something else to bring that Avg down.
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#45
Posted: 9/23/2012 5:38:27 PM
Like I keep saying - hate the tax code but not those who use it
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#46
Posted: 9/23/2012 5:41:20 PM

Tax code was written for the rich fatcats, not the little.  The little guy doesnt have a million loopholes to use, like the fatcats do.

Its incredible why anybody sticks up for these people on a daily basis.  screw them

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#47
Posted: 9/23/2012 5:45:39 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by lordspoint:

Like I keep saying - hate the tax code but not those who use it
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fine -- but then he has no business whatsoever talking about people paying their fair share.
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#48
Posted: 9/23/2012 5:49:18 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by cd329:

Tax code was written for the rich fatcats, not the little.  The little guy doesnt have a million loopholes to use, like the fatcats do.

Its incredible why anybody sticks up for these people on a daily basis.  screw them


this is the most puzzling part. Why do people get all up in arms because someone who only makes enough to barely get by and has to stress it out month to month does not contribute as much as you would like  -- yet when someone like Mitt, a Presidential candidate none the less, pays relatively less in taxes than you and I makes no sense to me.  
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#49
Posted: 9/23/2012 6:55:24 PM
Envy and hate are not virtues gentlemen.
I can only say the tax code needs to be fixed so many times.
I can only say you can't blame ANYONE for using the code to their Advantage.
Even good ole warren buffet does it as does Tom the teacher and Frank the firefighter


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#50
Posted: 9/23/2012 6:57:43 PM
Cd
I get raped by a rich guy or something?
You have alot of hate toward rich ppl.
Much more than the average guy.
And don't forget all the liberal fat vats who use the code too
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