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Author: [Politics] Topic: Let me put together a scenerio of the Trayvon Martin shooting
J_Galt send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook | My Sportsbook: 5Dimes |
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#1
Posted: 3/25/2012 10:57:09 AM
I know, there are already at least 5 threads about the shooting, but this is dealing with something that could be a plausable recreation of what happened

Let me put together a scenario that was likely the night of the Trayvon Martin, and you guys can weigh in on whether Zimmerman is guilty of murder.

I will make a few assumptions that may or may not be accurate.
I am using some facts we know, and filling in some holes that we either don't know about, or the cops haven't told us about

Facts ( as reported, no idea if they are accurate )
Martin is dead

Zimmerman fired the gun

Zimmerman called 9-11 to report Martin and was told to let the police handle it

Zimmerman had a bloody nose and some scratches around his head and neck


My Scenario

George Zimmerman is looking out his window and he sees a black kid in his neighborhood.
He calls 9-11, and can even be heard saying " friggin person" under his breath, so we can assume he has a bias against blacks.

He goes outside to confront Trayvon Martin, and he catches up to him.
This is all fact, the tapes captured the words " friggin person" and we know he went outside.

Now here comes some speculation
Lets say Zimmerman confronts Martin, asking what he is doing there.
Lets say Martin is polite and non threatening and says " I was just getting some skittles and ice tea, I'm on my way home"

Zimmerman then says " skittles my behind N*****, you are going nowhere" and he pulls a gun

At this point, Zimmerman has committed a crime in most jurisdictions, assault.

More speculation coming

Martin has two choices right now, to run ( and possibly get shot in the back ) or to fight back and hope to take down the 10 year older, fat older man.
At this point if Martin KILLS Zimmerman, it would be justified, Martin is in fear of his life

Martin punches Zimmerman in the nose, Zimmerman staggers.
Martin then grabs at Zimmerman's head, scratches his neck and face, and both tumble to the ground.

Martin is in fear of his life because Zimmerman is armed, but Zimmerman at this point can also be in fear of his life.

Even though he is armed, he may believe that if this kid gets the gun away from him, that he will use it
Especially if Zimmerman has a prejudice, he may believe that all blacks are drug addicts, killers, animals etc

Zimmerman and Martin are on the ground, Zimmerman pulls the trigger, Martin is shot

If this is what happened, Zimmerman was defending himself and the killing while tragic is justified as self defense

I do not live in Florida, so I could easily be wrong depending on how the laws are written

If we have any law enforcement officers, defense lawyers of prosecutors that read this, please give your opinions.

I IN NO WAY think this kid did anything wrong.
I feel it is a tragedy, but I also feel Zimmerman has be tried in the court of public opinion, and in the case I laid out above, would be justified in using the deadly force





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#2
Posted: 3/25/2012 7:08:20 PM
J_Galt..I came across the Stanford Police ..partial report of the initial investigation  ..Here
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MoneySRH
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#3
Posted: 3/25/2012 7:41:05 PM
He knowingly killed the boy, put himself in that position, was told not to approach, and did it anyway.

You're describing premeditated-aggravated assault-provocation-hate crime.


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#4
Posted: 3/25/2012 7:42:50 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by J_Galt:

I know, there are already at least 5 threads about the shooting, but this is dealing with something that could be a plausable recreation of what happened

Let me put together a scenario that was likely the night of the Trayvon Martin, and you guys can weigh in on whether Zimmerman is guilty of murder.

I will make a few assumptions that may or may not be accurate.
I am using some facts we know, and filling in some holes that we either don't know about, or the cops haven't told us about

Facts ( as reported, no idea if they are accurate )
Martin is dead

Zimmerman fired the gun

Zimmerman called 9-11 to report Martin and was told to let the police handle it

Zimmerman had a bloody nose and some scratches around his head and neck


My Scenario

George Zimmerman is looking out his window and he sees a black kid in his neighborhood.
He calls 9-11, and can even be heard saying " friggin person" under his breath, so we can assume he has a bias against blacks.

He goes outside to confront Trayvon Martin, and he catches up to him.
This is all fact, the tapes captured the words " friggin person" and we know he went outside.

Now here comes some speculation
Lets say Zimmerman confronts Martin, asking what he is doing there.
Lets say Martin is polite and non threatening and says " I was just getting some skittles and ice tea, I'm on my way home"

Zimmerman then says " skittles my behind N*****, you are going nowhere" and he pulls a gun

At this point, Zimmerman has committed a crime in most jurisdictions, assault.

More speculation coming

Martin has two choices right now, to run ( and possibly get shot in the back ) or to fight back and hope to take down the 10 year older, fat older man.
At this point if Martin KILLS Zimmerman, it would be justified, Martin is in fear of his life

Martin punches Zimmerman in the nose, Zimmerman staggers.
Martin then grabs at Zimmerman's head, scratches his neck and face, and both tumble to the ground.

Martin is in fear of his life because Zimmerman is armed, but Zimmerman at this point can also be in fear of his life.

Even though he is armed, he may believe that if this kid gets the gun away from him, that he will use it
Especially if Zimmerman has a prejudice, he may believe that all blacks are drug addicts, killers, animals etc

Zimmerman and Martin are on the ground, Zimmerman pulls the trigger, Martin is shot

If this is what happened, Zimmerman was defending himself and the killing while tragic is justified as self defense

I do not live in Florida, so I could easily be wrong depending on how the laws are written

If we have any law enforcement officers, defense lawyers of prosecutors that read this, please give your opinions.

I IN NO WAY think this kid did anything wrong.
I feel it is a tragedy, but I also feel Zimmerman has be tried in the court of public opinion, and in the case I laid out above, would be justified in using the deadly force







there are people that will vehemently disagree with you...

I think that zimmerman's mental sanity should be and has been questioned and along with the those that cheer on his use of force


This is the difference between the sensibility of those looking at from the standpoint of allowing the judicial system do its job and those that would make laws to ensure that he never faces a judge/jury...
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#5
Posted: 3/25/2012 8:33:34 PM
@ # 3
If he pulled a gun, it is assault.
Not sure about the premeditated aggravated assault provocation hate crime.

Im not sure how you could ever prove that.

Do you think he went outside with the intention of killing tge kid?

If he did, he could have done it easily without getting bloodied.

I will be interested if they found gunpowder on Martin ( indicating a close shot )
If they do, I think that helps cooberate Zimmermans story some
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#6
Posted: 3/25/2012 8:54:16 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by MoneySRH:

He knowingly killed the boy, put himself in that position, was told not to approach, and did it anyway.

You're describing premeditated-aggravated assault-provocation-hate crime.






And yet the prosecutor can't bring himself to charge the shooter despite your "facts"!

And, despite the fact that two witnesses describe Martin on top of Zimmerman beating him.

Why, it is almost as if you're lying or something.
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#7
Posted: 3/25/2012 10:36:36 PM

 Zimmerman was standing his ground, when he was seated in his vehicle , and observing the hoodied kid whom he reported as a suspicious person.  As soon as he exited his vehicle, he was no longer standing his ground.  He was an aggressor.  In doing so, he created his own environment of what he felt was "danger".  

Even the Republican author of the bill and the Republican Governor who signed the bill stated that the stand your ground law doesn't apply in this case.

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#8
Posted: 3/26/2012 1:46:18 AM

Zimmerman was a complete idiot to have the gun on him in the first place. That shows a little Barney Fife in him.

He brought this on himself. That's why you don't give mall cops guns.

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#9
Posted: 3/26/2012 2:46:55 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by 14daroad:





And yet the prosecutor can't bring himself to charge the shooter despite your "facts"!

And, despite the fact that two witnesses describe Martin on top of Zimmerman beating him.

Why, it is almost as if you're lying or something.
Let's continue this argument on your thread.
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#10
Posted: 3/26/2012 6:13:59 AM
According to Zimmermans Atty, Zimmerman suffered a broken nose
http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=15999256

I realize attorneys occasionally put stuff out there that isnt true, but if this is true, it's hard for anyone to say that Martin wasn't fighting back at some point.


Forensics will be a be a big part of this investigation.

Who had blood where.
Did Martin have blood / abrasions / Zimmermans skin on his knuckles / hands / fingernails?

If so, at some point Martin and Zimmerman must have been mutual combatants
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#11
Posted: 3/26/2012 6:29:59 AM
i think you are arguing a moot point...people get gunned down daily in this country. gang wars, stray bullets

why did this story get big? why did reuters refer to him as white when he is as hispanic looking as anyone ive ever met and is of mixed race

what is the larger goal of those fanning the flames here?
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#12
Posted: 3/26/2012 11:46:13 AM
the goal is for obama to get votes.   trust me.   j galt....every police phone triage tells you not to follow.  its their flowsheet.  every personn whos ever done a neighb orhood watch knows this.  fact is this dude was trespassing .....during his school suspension.....got followed by a zealous  watch guy who initiated a cconfrontation that led to his behind being kicked so he shot the kid.      so the dead kid is black and maybe theres a czech in the genetic woodpile of this hispanic male.     so this becomes a race issue and our head racist fans the flames.         god help ous 
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#13
Posted: 3/26/2012 12:29:49 PM
"If this is what happened, Zimmerman was defending himself and the killing while tragic is justified as self defense"

I do not think this is legally correct, but I don't practice criminal law and its been a while since my criminal procedure/criminal law classes in school. I don't believe you can escalate a situation and then claim self-defense when the reason self-defense is needed is because you initiated a confrontation.
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#14
Posted: 3/26/2012 12:34:51 PM

a little background on this kid Travon, tatted up and drug-dealing :

 

LINK

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#15
Posted: 3/26/2012 12:45:36 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by KOAJ:

i think you are arguing a moot point...people get gunned down daily in this country. gang wars, stray bullets

why did this story get big? why did reuters refer to him as white when he is as hispanic looking as anyone ive ever met and is of mixed race

what is the larger goal of those fanning the flames here?


so true.  this kind of incident happens in this country every day.  this is what most killings look like, not the nonsense you see on csi.  the hispanic (or whatever he is) on black element is somewhat rare but most shootings are in this gray area and involve black victims.  i understand there are two different races here but how this gets so much publicity when there will be 300 more of these by the end of the year is kind of crazy.
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#16
Posted: 3/26/2012 1:30:59 PM
interesting link HoldEm00

The facts and evidence will come out on this.  meanwhile its a media war.
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#17
Posted: 3/26/2012 2:02:56 PM
Whether or not this cat was tatted up, a drug dealer, etc. -- wholly irrelevant to the analysis surrounding his death.
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#18
Posted: 3/26/2012 2:21:01 PM
as anyones race or sweet baby pictures
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#19
Posted: 3/26/2012 2:51:29 PM
recent mass shirt distributions have zimmermans picture with the phrase box behind guy.  

0 news here if the shooter was black or the dead kid latino.

we are about to see some race riots now.  friggin great
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#20
Posted: 3/26/2012 3:04:46 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by drJ:

the goal is for obama to get votes.   trust me.   j galt....every police phone triage tells you not to follow.  its their flowsheet.  every personn whos ever done a neighb orhood watch knows this.  fact is this dude was trespassing .....during his school suspension.....got followed by a zealous  watch guy who initiated a cconfrontation that led to his behind being kicked so he shot the kid.      so the dead kid is black and maybe theres a czech in the genetic woodpile of this hispanic male.     so this becomes a race issue and our head racist fans the flames.         god help ous 


 


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#21
Posted: 3/26/2012 3:11:45 PM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by KOAJ:

i think you are arguing a moot point...people get gunned down daily in this country. gang wars, stray bullets

why did this story get big? why did reuters refer to him as white when he is as hispanic looking as anyone ive ever met and is of mixed race

what is the larger goal of those fanning the flames here?

and your thoughts are??

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#22
Posted: 3/26/2012 4:30:44 PM
^ the Stand Your Ground law in Florida which legally allows you to defend yourself with deadly force if someone is on your property

take Fast and Furious to the next level...

forget about the race hustlers...they are insignificant. the goal of the State is to ban guns. legal ownership and gun use is what "they" are after
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#23
Posted: 3/26/2012 4:54:36 PM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by KOAJ:

^ the Stand Your Ground law in Florida which legally allows you to defend yourself with deadly force if someone is on your property

take Fast and Furious to the next level...

forget about the race hustlers...they are insignificant. the goal of the State is to ban guns. legal ownership and gun use is what "they" are after

if "they" come after the guns, all hell will break loose and we'll see martial law

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#24
Posted: 3/26/2012 5:17:16 PM
Listen to this scenario:

A guy is driving down the street. We will call him person A. He gets cut off by another car and that car turns into a Walgreens. We will call him Person B. Person A follows Person B into the parking lot and then into the store. As of right now anyone would think Person A would be the aggressor. Even though he was cut off it doesn't give Person A the right to follow Person B. It would be hard to disagree with that.

Person A approaches Person B in the store. An argument ensues but so far no physical contact. The argument ends. Person B starts walking away. Person A calls him a name. Person B then turns around because he was called a name and approaches Person A and then pushes him. A fight then starts. The cops show up about ten minutes later. When it was discovered Person A followed person B in to the store Person A was arrested.

The reason I am writing this is because Zimmerman following Trayvon sounds similar.

The Person A/Person B situation was a real case. The judge ruled in person A's favor even though he was the initial instigator. The reason the judge ruled that way is because at some point Person A layed back and Person B approached him which then made him the aggressor.

Even though Zimmerman was initially following Trayvon I would think he stopped and then Trayvon became the aggressor. 

Why do I think Trayvon was the aggresso? Would Trayvon have approached Zimmerman if he knew he had a gun? I know if someone was pointing a gun at me I would either be frozen still or I would turn and run. What I would not do is charge the person pointing a gun at me.

The reason I told the Walgreens story is because the legal definition of the aggressor can change in seconds.
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#25
Posted: 3/26/2012 6:42:17 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by captjohn67:

if "they" come after the guns, all hell will break loose and we'll see martial law



they wont do it directly...they will do it piece by piece, state by state, city by city using incidents like this to gain public support

remember the smoking on planes? first it was no smoking on overseas flights, then longer than 5 hours, etc etc now you cant even smoke in your yard in some cities
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