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[Politics] Topic: Virginia Abortion Laws |
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DiscoD69 |
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#151 Posted: 2/24/2012 12:37:15 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:
Because a fetus, until the time of viability, is not considered human, therefore, there is no issue of 'murder.' Unless of course, you are a religious zealot. 
I wonder how they feel about sperm.
I guess chicks who swallow should be prosecuted for murder and cannibalism... Human DNA and all...
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14daroad |
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#152 Posted: 2/24/2012 12:38:38 PM Has nobody read the response to this women from the PA lawmaker responsible for their abortion law?
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Yes, the woman is a hysterical idiot. |
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bowlslit |
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#153 Posted: 2/24/2012 1:28:35 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:
Because a fetus, until the time of viability, is not considered human, therefore, there is no issue of 'murder.' Unless of course, you are a religious zealot.
Except, the point I made before...if a pregnant woman gets murdered the murderer can/will be charged with two murders.
Im waiting for an explanation as to how the same fetus is considered not human in one scenario yet not the other? 
And most people that support abortions would be in favor of charging the murderer of a pregnant woman with 2 murders
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#154 Posted: 2/24/2012 3:31:01 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:
Except, the point I made before...if a pregnant woman gets murdered the murderer can/will be charged with two murders.
Im waiting for an explanation as to how the same fetus is considered not human in one scenario yet not the other?
And most people that support abortions would be in favor of charging the murderer of a pregnant woman with 2 murders
1) Not in very State.
2) There is no consent to murder. There is consent by the woman having the abortion.
3) In most states, the fetus is not considered a human for purposes of providing consent.
It is sweet to watch the bond developing between you and 14HerrDaRoad. Very sweet. Maybe you guys can shoot an abortion doctor togther.  |
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djbrow |
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#155 Posted: 2/24/2012 3:35:29 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by 14daroad:
Because a fetus, until the time of viability, is not considered human
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Is it considered a dog, cat, ape, fish, or bird, etc.? Obviously not.
By the way, Obstetricians and pediatricians say it is impossible to draw a line between viability and nonviability
That is the current legal standard, pursuant to Roe. Obviously, as with time, viability has changed. I could cite 100 experts to say it occurs at a later date and you could cite 100 to say it occurs at an earlier date.
The difference between you and I is I acknowledge the different points of view on this, and you (as aways) are certain you are 'right.' Or at least what the 'right' is telling you what to think.  |
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bowlslit |
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#156 Posted: 2/24/2012 3:46:14 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:
1) Not in very State.
2) There is no consent to murder. There is consent by the woman having the abortion.
3) In most states, the fetus is not considered a human for purposes of providing consent.
It is sweet to watch the bond developing between you and 14HerrDaRoad. Very sweet. Maybe you guys can shoot an abortion doctor togther.
Ah but you still see the irony in the states that do see it that way.
And you would agree that many people that aren't against abortion support 2 murder charges for any murderer of a pregnant woman? |
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DiscoD69 |
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#157 Posted: 2/24/2012 3:59:42 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:
1) Not in very State.
2) There is no consent to murder. There is consent by the woman having the abortion.
3) In most states, the fetus is not considered a human for purposes of providing consent.
It is sweet to watch the bond developing between you and 14HerrDaRoad. Very sweet. Maybe you guys can shoot an abortion doctor togther.
Oh jesus christ don't give them any ideas  |
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#158 Posted: 2/24/2012 4:05:22 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:
Ah but you still see the irony in the states that do see it that way.
And you would agree that many people that aren't against abortion support 2 murder charges for any murderer of a pregnant woman?
It kills me to say this, but you do have an argument. 
I don't disagree that if you are looking at it from a purely outcome oriented approach, they really cannot be reconciled. If one is considered to have committed murder based on the outcome of death of another, and that murder can include a fetus, then the death of a fetus at the hands of the mother has the same outcome approach.
But murder also requires intent. The intent to murder has no other prequisite (manslaughter is more of a reckless standard...actions showing a conscious disregard for life that results in death, not intent to murder). So it is difficult to say that a person who is having an abortion is intending to commit a murder, rather they are intending to end a pregnancy. One can argue that that intent has led to the end of a life, similar to manslaughter. |
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14daroad |
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#159 Posted: 2/24/2012 4:18:57 PM
----------------- No, actually, you don't.
See, saying "Because a fetus, until the time of viability, is not considered human" is declarative.
Thanks for participating.
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14daroad |
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#160 Posted: 2/24/2012 4:21:37 PM
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It is nice that you refer to "legal standards" (which of course you know little about) instead of medical standards when discussing human development.
And of course Roe did not say the baby is not "human" pre-viability But it was nice for you to make that up whole cloth.
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#161 Posted: 2/24/2012 4:22:15 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by 14daroad: The difference between you and I is I acknowledge the different points of view on this,
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No, actually, you don't.
See, saying "Because a fetus, until the time of viability, is not considered human"
is declarative.
Thanks for participating.
Except that is what the Supreme Court's holding in Roe represents. So, yes, I can declaring current law.
Ooops.
Oh, before you left on maternity leave, I was waiting for you to link one post critical of a right winger or supportive of a left wing position. Have you found one in those 9 months?
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#162 Posted: 2/24/2012 4:26:49 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:
It kills me to say this, but you do have an argument.
I don't disagree that if you are looking at it from a purely outcome oriented approach, they really cannot be reconciled. If one is considered to have committed murder based on the outcome of death of another, and that murder can include a fetus, then the death of a fetus at the hands of the mother has the same outcome approach.
But murder also requires intent. The intent to murder has no other prequisite (manslaughter is more of a reckless standard...actions showing a conscious disregard for life that results in death, not intent to murder). So it is difficult to say that a person who is having an abortion is intending to commit a murder, rather they are intending to end a pregnancy. One can argue that that intent has led to the end of a life, similar to manslaughter.
First off. In any honest discussion, it shouldn't kill you to point out when your oppenent is correct.
Second, in our society we don't encourage people to be responsible. If a woman can have 12 abortions in her lifetime...for hell sake is there somthing wrong with that? At what point do we say enough?
I promise you, our society doesn't need any more irresponsible people and at some point I am in favor of legislating responsible behavior on many different issues regardless of any criminal activity or lack therof. |
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#163 Posted: 2/24/2012 4:29:21 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:
Except that is what the Supreme Court's holding in Roe represents. So, yes, I can declaring current law.
Ooops.
Oh, before you left on maternity leave, I was waiting for you to link one post critical of a right winger or supportive of a left wing position. Have you found one in those 9 months?
Oops again. From Roe:
The common law. It is undisputed that, at common law, abortion performed before "quickening" -- the first recognizable movement of the fetus in utero, appearing usually from the 16th to the 18th week of pregnancy -- was not an indictable offense. The absence These disciplines variously approached the question in terms of the point at which the embryo or fetus became "formed" or recognizably human, or in terms of when a "person" came into being, that is, infused with a "soul" or "animated." A loose consensus evolved in early English law that these events occurred at
Understand Roe adopted this position right?
O yeah, I forget. You ran off because you were caught lying about being a lawyer. That's why you are claiming to be a doctor this time. 
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Coppsguy |
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#164 Posted: 2/24/2012 4:29:49 PM I have no dog in this fight, BUT im wondering why the male Libs on this site are so interested and so for abortion???
(enter generic liberal response)
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#165 Posted: 2/24/2012 4:31:07 PM *also DJ maybe you can retire the Carlos Gomez profile pic...? hasnt been a Twin OR a quality MLB player since, well never
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DiscoD69 |
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#166 Posted: 2/24/2012 4:45:03 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:
First off. In any honest discussion, it shouldn't kill you to point out when your oppenent is correct.
Second, in our society we don't encourage people to be responsible. If a woman can have 12 abortions in her lifetime...for hell sake is there somthing wrong with that? At what point do we say enough?
I promise you, our society doesn't need any more irresponsible people and at some point I am in favor of legislating responsible behavior on many different issues regardless of any criminal activity or lack therof.
Oh the irony!
Logically people who get pregnant 12 times are not responsible people whether they have an abortion 12 times or have 12 children.
It's irresponsible to get pregnant 12 times regardless of the outcome.
Therefore, abortion plays no part in your 'responsible vs. irresponsible people argument.
In fact, I would say it's FAR LESS RESPONSIBLE to have 12 children than 12 abortions considering the footprint every person on the planet leaves behind.
But then again, you don't care about concrete things, things that you can actually see and has an impact on your life and society (the environment, poverty etc).. you only care about imaginary things that you can't see... that people have told you is real and you should just believe (heaven, hell, 'sin in the eyes of god' etc).
That's a  position in my book. |
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#167 Posted: 2/24/2012 4:49:00 PM Great, now i feel like a douche for spaming up this thread. Disreguard post # 165
DJ you're a good guy |
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#168 Posted: 2/24/2012 5:00:03 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:
Oh the irony!
Logically people who get pregnant 12 times are not responsible people whether they have an abortion 12 times or have 12 children.
It's irresponsible to get pregnant 12 times regardless of the outcome.
Therefore, abortion plays no part in your 'responsible vs. irresponsible people argument.
In fact, I would say it's FAR LESS RESPONSIBLE to have 12 children than 12 abortions considering the footprint every person on the planet leaves behind.
But then again, you don't care about concrete things, things that you can actually see and has an impact on your life and society (the environment, poverty etc).. you only care about imaginary things that you can't see... that people have told you is real and you should just believe (heaven, hell, 'sin in the eyes of god' etc).
That's a position in my book.
So you failed to see my point. I said 12 abortions and you clearly went off on a different direction.
Allow me to cut to the chase....If It were up to me...I would require a woman to have her tubes tied after say...the third abortion.
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#169 Posted: 2/24/2012 5:06:47 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by Coppsguy:
*also DJ maybe you can retire the Carlos Gomez profile pic...? hasnt been a Twin OR a quality MLB player since, well never
You do realize that is the last time I had anything to cheer about for the Twins. 
Further comments
Kidding, I have learned to deal with pain.
I am very neutral on the abortion issue. I am more amazed at how the white religious right conservatives are so for imposing their own set of morals. |
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#170 Posted: 2/24/2012 5:15:49 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:
You do realize that is the last time I had anything to cheer about for the Twins.
Further comments
Kidding, I have learned to deal with pain.
I am very neutral on the abortion issue. I am more amazed at how the white religious right conservatives are so for imposing their own set of morals.
Well for your 2nd point, i would say that the extreme right AND extreme left are the ppl i have a problem with. im right, but not an extremist ( im actually ok with abortion im some instances) as for the twins you should at least put up a Mauer or Morneau pic. The Tigers got a lot better with Fielder, but the Twins are always like a scrappy team with low pay roll that succeeds (see marlins circa 90's) |
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#171 Posted: 2/24/2012 5:31:31 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by Coppsguy:
Well for your 2nd point, i would say that the extreme right AND extreme left are the ppl i have a problem with. im right, but not an extremist ( im actually ok with abortion im some instances) as for the twins you should at least put up a Mauer or Morneau pic. The Tigers got a lot better with Fielder, but the Twins are always like a scrappy team with low pay roll that succeeds (see marlins circa 90's)
I agree with your point. I abhor extremism. No abortion on demand in all situations and no restrictions either.
We aren't small market anymore. We are like the 15th highest payroll. No excuses.
That moment was better than anything Mauer or Morneau has given me in the last couple of years. |
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#172 Posted: 2/24/2012 5:34:30 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:
So you failed to see my point. I said 12 abortions and you clearly went off on a different direction.
Allow me to cut to the chase....If It were up to me...I would require a woman to have her tubes tied after say...the third abortion.
I still don't understand this argument. It could be argued that having NO CHILDREN is more responsible than having 3 children. If that is my argument (it is in this debate), I would say it's more responsible to have 3 abortions than 3 children.
Abortion plays no part in your 'responsible people' argument because 'responsible' is a subjective term.
I guess you want to regulate a women's life to the point where she can only have sex/have children how/where/when YOU say so?
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#173 Posted: 2/24/2012 5:42:09 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:
I still don't understand this argument. It could be argued that having NO CHILDREN is more responsible than having 3 children. If that is my argument (it is in this debate), I would say it's more responsible to have 3 abortions than 3 children.
Abortion plays no part in your 'responsible people' argument because 'responsible' is a subjective term.
I guess you want to regulate a women's life to the point where she can only have sex/have children how/where/when YOU say so?
Interesting
No...is it that hard for you? What do you do with the woman that wants to schedule her 12th abortion?
Let her go ahead with it status quo...or start legislating some responsibility.
If shes had her third already she is on her way to the 4th already. Do you do nothing and give her a high five or what? |
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#174 Posted: 2/24/2012 6:54:07 PM |
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#175 Posted: 2/25/2012 12:04:57 AM QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:
This.
One republican who isn't afraid to attack his own party, looks at politics pragmatically, and takes reasoned positions. You are a dying breed within the ranks, my friend.
Or perhaps it is just the last two years of Wake games that has softened you. 
Sorry for the week old response... Appreciate the comments, always a pleasure when I get a chance to post with you on here..even when it is a bit delayed and sporadic on my end...And to think it all began with a boxing
It has been a rough last few years for sure...I guess 3 ACC wins could be considered an improvement over the 1 from last year .
Thank god for pitchers and catcher reporting. Knowing I will get to see Halladay, Lee, and Hamels each take the mound every 5th day in a little over a month helps ease the pain a bit. The Twins can't possibly be as bad this year, can the?...Oh wait..nevermind...Carl Pavano is your #1 starter
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