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Author: [Penalty Box] Topic: Gun problems that will remain
rick3117 send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook |
rick3117
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#51
Posted: 1/20/2013 9:47:24 PM
http://patdollard.com/2013/01/is-obamas-claim-that-40-of-all-gun-purchases-are-conducted-without-a-background-check-accurate/
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#52
Posted: 1/20/2013 9:53:05 PM
So rick...

What is your estimation of the numbers?
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#53
Posted: 1/20/2013 10:17:23 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by ClubDirt:




guns don't help rightwing company executives make huge profits by reducing the cost of labor and all that goes with it.  gun laws help the nra and foxnews convince people that all of their guns will get taken away so they buy more and gun and ammo manufacturers make record profits.  it makes sense to me.


Correct..

SS you need to quit deflecting, it does not prove a point in the slightest.


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14daroad send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook |
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#54
Posted: 1/21/2013 1:29:34 PM

This:

Guns purchased from gun shows make up more than 40% of the guns that are owned here in America which require NO background check obviously reducing the chances of guns landing in the hands of a criminals

===

Is not a "fact" There is no source for this alleged fact and it is an egreous misstatement. Gun show sales do no make up 40% of guns owned in America.

Further,  gun show is a collection of vendors selling firearms, firearms accessories, and ammunition. Like any gunshop, all of the vendors are required to complete background checks on any purchases and must have a FFL (Federal Firearms License).

The law does permit the private, person to person sale of firearms to anyone that is not a felon and does not require a background check

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rick3117 send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook |
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#55
Posted: 1/21/2013 1:38:42 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by dl36:

So rick...

What is your estimation of the numbers?

I am not omnipotent.  I can't begin to calculate something that is done without any official record, or quantifiable stat.  

I think that it is lower than 40%, but I don't know because it would also include fathers passing down hunting rifles to their sons.  

Overall anyone that tells you that they have a definite precise handle of numbers of an action that is taking place without any oversight or documentation is a liar,  flat and simple.  They are lying to your face and hoping that you don't call them on it.  
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rick3117 send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook |
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#56
Posted: 1/21/2013 1:41:52 PM
I do not see why an FFL couldn't process a private sale to get a background check and a receipt of sale.  

Not for registration.  

But to provide the seller with a receipt of sale, and to get a background check done on the buyer.  That seems completely reasonable. 

$20 dollar fee.  

It is important that this does not lead to registration and having to have a title for your guns etc. 
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#57
Posted: 1/21/2013 1:56:11 PM

rick,

the fee is as low as $10 in some states I believe.

And, some private sales are handled that way. But again, I would say the 2nd Amendment gives me the right to privately sell my firearms.

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#58
Posted: 1/21/2013 1:59:48 PM
Oh, and on that "40%" - The dubious statistic of guns that avoided background checks — which is actually 36 percent — comes from a small 251-person survey on gun sales two decades ago, (The survey was done by telephone, using a random-digit-dial method, with a response rate of 50 percent.)  very early in the Clinton administration. Most of the survey covered sales before the Brady Act instituted mandatory federal background checks in early 1994.
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rick3117 send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook |
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#59
Posted: 1/21/2013 2:05:37 PM
I just read an article about Dr. Martin Luther King being denied a concealed carry permit on the basis of his numerous arrests for civil disobedience.  

Kind of ironic.  
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#60
Posted: 1/21/2013 2:22:43 PM
rick, that link offers nothing more than someone saying they don't believe it....... They offer very little substantive explanation as to why it is wrong.

Also what I meant to say was gun shows in addition to all SECONDARY sellers that don't require background checks.

Also to clear this up 33 states according to a quick google search don't require any sort of law restricting what a gun show can do. And some counties within certain states don't force gun shows to do anything so this fictitious idea that all gun shows are magically background checking everyone is a lie.

14, shut up and get out of my thread. You again offer nothing to a debate or a discussion. It's actually humorous how quickly you raced to this thread as you were monitoring each day you were boxed to see when you would get out. Boy what a life you have.
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#61
Posted: 1/21/2013 2:24:04 PM
It's also ironic that today is National Sqirrel Appreciation Day..in honor of your nut loving little friends ..Give the squirrels of the world a break!
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#62
Posted: 1/21/2013 4:37:17 PM
nd some counties within certain states don't force gun shows to do anything so this fictitious idea that all gun shows are magically background checking everyone is a lie. 


The requirements for a vendor at a gun show to do a background check on a gun sale are defined by statue. This is clear and inarguable.

You posted a White House talking point as a "fact" when it is not a fact. Instead of critically examining the White House bogus mis-statement, you will proceed to call me names.

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#63
Posted: 1/21/2013 4:41:55 PM
The Washington Post fact checker looked at the bogus 40% claim here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/the-stale-claim-that-40-percent-of-gun-sales-lack-background-checks/2013/01/20/e42ec050-629a-11e2-b05a-605528f6b712_blog.html



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#64
Posted: 1/21/2013 4:51:30 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by rick3117:

Breitbart-While presenting a litany of gun control measures for Congress to consider, President Obama suggested that “40% of all gun purchases are conducted without a background check.”

In other words, 40% of gun sales are private.

While he was still speaking, one of my friends texted me and asked: “How does Obama know how many guns are sold privately? The fact that it’s ‘private’ means it’s not public.”

So I started looking through databases for references to this figure, and I soon found myself reading a 2011 study by NYC Mayor Michael Bloomberg titled, “Point, Click, Fire: An Investigation Into Illegal Online Gun Sales.”

According to the study, “40% of guns are sold through private sellers.” Moreover, the study claims that “these sales—which take place in many venues, including gun shows and, increasingly, on the internet… fuel the black market for illegal guns.”

Many parts of this assertion are factually flawed or, at the least, very misleading.

First off, the figure of 40% doesn’t represent new guns but guns already in circulation, which are being resold on a secondary basis. The intimation that 40% of new guns are being sold illegally is simply myth-making at best, lying at worst.

What’s really happening is that people who think like Bloomberg and Obama are guessing that a certain percentage of firearms in the hands of Americans have no paperwork on them because their original sale predates background checks. Thus, their goal is to seal off avenues for private sales in order to force Americans to enter those guns into the system.

As for selling guns on the Internet to avoid background checks, that’s another stretch. If a citizen buys a gun from a store via the internet, that gun has to be shipped from a dealer with an Federal Firearms License (FFL) to another dealer with a FFL.

In other words, if a resident of Denver bought a gun from a store in Tampa, the FFL in Tampa would send the gun to an FFL in Denver. Once it arrived, the buyer would pay a fee for shipping, taxes on the gun, as well as any mark-up for services. He would also have to submit to a back-ground check just as if he had bought the gun off a shelf in Denver.

The idea that 40% of gun sales are private is meant to confuse Americans and make them think there is a breakdown in the system somewhere. But there’s not.



Well that is also very interesting Rick
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14daroad send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook |
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#65
Posted: 1/21/2013 4:54:31 PM
14, shut up and get out of my thread. You again offer nothing to a debate or a discussion


I'm not the one posting easily debunked lies and shouting IT IS A FACT (no, no it is not) to anyone that questions it.


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#66
Posted: 1/21/2013 5:24:07 PM

You posting nothing but bull garbage. And there is nothing to refute in your posts because it is full of tripe.
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#67
Posted: 1/21/2013 5:31:43 PM
40% of guns come from secondary sellers, that do not conduct background checks.

Secondary sellers are comprised of a variety of different methods. Post #1 is misleading. The 40% number means all different kinds of secondary sellers.

You can't refute that because its a fact. In addition to a majority of states in this country imposing NO regulations on the most popular secondary method of obtaining a firearm, a gun show.
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#68
Posted: 1/21/2013 5:36:44 PM
40% of guns come from secondary sellers


No they don't.

Why don't you try and source that claim?
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#69
Posted: 1/21/2013 5:37:56 PM
In addition to a majority of states in this country imposing NO regulations on the most popular secondary method of obtaining a firearm, a gun show. 


You don't seem to understand that a vendor at a gun show is required by federal law to conduct a background check on any gun sale.


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#70
Posted: 1/21/2013 5:39:32 PM
Federal Law requires vendors who make firearms sales at gun shows to conduct background checks.


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#71
Posted: 1/21/2013 6:31:52 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by 14daroad:

In addition to a majority of states in this country imposing NO regulations on the most popular secondary method of obtaining a firearm, a gun show. 


You don't seem to understand that a vendor at a gun show is required by federal law to conduct a background check on any gun sale.




Nooo....... 14-da-dumb-dumb-dumb............

State governments decide the laws on whether or not gun shows within their respective state must conduct a background check or even have federal licensed gun dealers present at the various gun shows.

In Spitzers book: http://www.amazon.com/Politics-Gun-Control-5th/dp/1594519870

In which he takes data from the FBI records concerning NCVS reports and numerous articles.......

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F01E1D7113FF934A25757C0A9619C8B63


This article describes a different loophole but still pertinent.
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2007-04-18/news/0704180237_1_cho-glock-19-virginia-tech



Here's a good one: An amendment that would have closed the loophole that applies to gun shows, and forced sellers there to conduct background checks on buyers, was attached by a vote of 53-46,
http://www.salon.com/2007/04/18/dems_and_guns/


Or you could just go to Wikipedia. 
The remaining 33 states do not restrict private, intrastate sales of firearms at gun shows in any manner

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_shows_in_the_United_States

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#72
Posted: 1/21/2013 6:43:51 PM
You think 40% is an arbitrary number its not. In fact its most likely higher now than it was in 2010...


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#73
Posted: 1/21/2013 6:44:41 PM
State governments decide the laws on whether or not gun shows within their respective state must conduct a background check 


Um, no, no they do not. Note the "federal" in Federal Firearms Dealer License.

It would be illegal for a FFL to sell a firearm without conducting a background check.

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#74
Posted: 1/21/2013 6:46:46 PM
he remaining 33 states do not restrict private, intrastate sales of firearms at gun shows in any manner


Um, a "private" sale is not a sale conducted by a vendor. The vendors at gun shows selling firearms are Federal firearms licensees.

You are simply conflating "private" with all gun sales at a gun show.

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#75
Posted: 1/21/2013 6:47:23 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Stiln:

You think 40% is an arbitrary number its not. In fact its most likely higher now than it was in 2010...



The 40% number is a lie perpetrated by the White House.

Why don't you source the 40% claim? Where is the data?
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