Nothing at all but the award does not go to the most valuable team it goes to the most valuable palyer and without Mauer the Twins season would have been over months ago.
Just for argument sake, lets say the Cubs catch the Cards for the division and Colorado passes the Cards in the wild card because their pitching goes way south. Does that mean Pujols no longer deserves the MVP in the NL. That would be an absurd argument.
No because then a Philly would win the MVP most likely. I was against Pujols winning the MVP when he last won it in 05 because his team wasn't a playoff contender. I was against A-Rod in 2003 because his team was in what...last place? So much for that value. I can see I won't win the arugement with anyone so I should just start making a case for an award name change.
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Quote Originally Posted by billieman:
Nothing at all but the award does not go to the most valuable team it goes to the most valuable palyer and without Mauer the Twins season would have been over months ago.
Just for argument sake, lets say the Cubs catch the Cards for the division and Colorado passes the Cards in the wild card because their pitching goes way south. Does that mean Pujols no longer deserves the MVP in the NL. That would be an absurd argument.
No because then a Philly would win the MVP most likely. I was against Pujols winning the MVP when he last won it in 05 because his team wasn't a playoff contender. I was against A-Rod in 2003 because his team was in what...last place? So much for that value. I can see I won't win the arugement with anyone so I should just start making a case for an award name change.
Which is why I think they should change the name of the award or add the Most Outstanding Player award. At the end of the season, if the Twins don't make the playoffs, do you think Mauer will say it was a successful season? I just don't see it.
Using this logic does that make Jerry Hairston, Jose Molina and Eric Hinske and Chad Gaudin more valuable than Ichiro, Joe Mauer and Zack Greinke? This is a serious question.
As to your other point, it wouldn't be succesful for the Twins team no........but not becasue of anything Mauer did though. This is a serious question as well; If Mauer was hitting .450 would the Twins be appreciably better? I think not. Clearly a very successful year for Mauer individually. But not for the Twins as a team. I think a distinction can be made here.
As for MOP vs MVP, like I said earlier, isn't that just semantics?
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Quote Originally Posted by Sparky10191:
Which is why I think they should change the name of the award or add the Most Outstanding Player award. At the end of the season, if the Twins don't make the playoffs, do you think Mauer will say it was a successful season? I just don't see it.
Using this logic does that make Jerry Hairston, Jose Molina and Eric Hinske and Chad Gaudin more valuable than Ichiro, Joe Mauer and Zack Greinke? This is a serious question.
As to your other point, it wouldn't be succesful for the Twins team no........but not becasue of anything Mauer did though. This is a serious question as well; If Mauer was hitting .450 would the Twins be appreciably better? I think not. Clearly a very successful year for Mauer individually. But not for the Twins as a team. I think a distinction can be made here.
As for MOP vs MVP, like I said earlier, isn't that just semantics?
Joe Mauer and its not even close, lets not forget he missed thefirst month to start the year and came out like he did. He plays with a lineup half as good as the Yankees and the fact that his team is even mentioned in a division race still is amazing considering how bad they have become. The guy catches games and will hit at .365 with 30plus HR. Amazing.
100%. He is the MOST VALUABLE player in the American League. He's the best offensive player in the AL, and he's a friggin catcher! A great catcher.
Here's the end of Rob Neyer's post on this specific argument (he agrees that it should be Mauer by a landslide, and he's smarter than any of us when it comes to baseball):
You know what? Let's just be honest. The argument for Teixeira is an argument for doing it the way it's always been done. Teixeira is just another big RBI guy on a team with a great record. If he were a Twin and Mauer were a Yankee, Teixeira would hardly be an afterthought.
Some of you are OK with that. I'm not. But let's at least be honest about the thing. It's not about defense or baserunning or chemistry or any of that. It's about driving in the most runs for the best team.
P.S. All the way to the end, and I haven't even mentioned Teixeira's massive home/road splits. You should check them out, though.
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Quote Originally Posted by thisguyiswise:
Joe Mauer and its not even close, lets not forget he missed thefirst month to start the year and came out like he did. He plays with a lineup half as good as the Yankees and the fact that his team is even mentioned in a division race still is amazing considering how bad they have become. The guy catches games and will hit at .365 with 30plus HR. Amazing.
100%. He is the MOST VALUABLE player in the American League. He's the best offensive player in the AL, and he's a friggin catcher! A great catcher.
Here's the end of Rob Neyer's post on this specific argument (he agrees that it should be Mauer by a landslide, and he's smarter than any of us when it comes to baseball):
You know what? Let's just be honest. The argument for Teixeira is an argument for doing it the way it's always been done. Teixeira is just another big RBI guy on a team with a great record. If he were a Twin and Mauer were a Yankee, Teixeira would hardly be an afterthought.
Some of you are OK with that. I'm not. But let's at least be honest about the thing. It's not about defense or baserunning or chemistry or any of that. It's about driving in the most runs for the best team.
P.S. All the way to the end, and I haven't even mentioned Teixeira's massive home/road splits. You should check them out, though.
It's not much fun being a baseball fan in a small market. Our chances of winning a World Series is small. It can happen but it requires the stars to line-up and all your prospects and decisions to pan out at the same time. If we are going to make the MVP and other such awards contingent on making the playoffs then I think the game will further alienate much of it's fan base.
nailed it, my feelings exactly.
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Quote Originally Posted by mmac66:
It's not much fun being a baseball fan in a small market. Our chances of winning a World Series is small. It can happen but it requires the stars to line-up and all your prospects and decisions to pan out at the same time. If we are going to make the MVP and other such awards contingent on making the playoffs then I think the game will further alienate much of it's fan base.
Why stop your argument at playoffs then. Would the best player on a divisional winner be more valuable than the best player on the wild card team. Would the best player on the team with the best record in the AL be more valuable than the best player on the team that finishes one game behind them on the season.
The award is named properly. Mauer adds just as much value to the twins and probably more than any other player in the AL.
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Why stop your argument at playoffs then. Would the best player on a divisional winner be more valuable than the best player on the wild card team. Would the best player on the team with the best record in the AL be more valuable than the best player on the team that finishes one game behind them on the season.
The award is named properly. Mauer adds just as much value to the twins and probably more than any other player in the AL.
Whats the point of having the award if we just give it to the best player on the best team in the league every year. Just take the team with the best record and have the team vote on their MVP and it is done.
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Whats the point of having the award if we just give it to the best player on the best team in the league every year. Just take the team with the best record and have the team vote on their MVP and it is done.
So what all the Mauer fans are sayin is if Mauer hits 400 with 50 homers and 100 RBI's and the twins finish 20 games below 500 then he should get MVP.....The main goal in MLB is to get to the championship and help your team get there....anyone with that bad of a record should not be in consideration....I like Mauer but he is not the MVP....
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So what all the Mauer fans are sayin is if Mauer hits 400 with 50 homers and 100 RBI's and the twins finish 20 games below 500 then he should get MVP.....The main goal in MLB is to get to the championship and help your team get there....anyone with that bad of a record should not be in consideration....I like Mauer but he is not the MVP....
Using this logic does that make Jerry Hairston, Jose Molina and Eric Hinske and Chad Gaudin more valuable than Ichiro, Joe Mauer and Zack Greinke? This is a serious question.
As to your other point, it wouldn't be succesful for the Twins team no........but not becasue of anything Mauer did though. This is a serious question as well; If Mauer was hitting .450 would the Twins be appreciably better? I think not. Clearly a very successful year for Mauer individually. But not for the Twins as a team. I think a distinction can be made here.
As for MOP vs MVP, like I said earlier, isn't that just semantics?
I say they are valuable in different ways. Hairston, Molina and Gaudin didn't lead their team to the playoffs. Jeter and Tex were the key components in leading the Yanks to the playoffs. Mauer and Morneau are 1 and 2 for the Twins' most valuable player, but not in the league.
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Quote Originally Posted by mmac66:
Using this logic does that make Jerry Hairston, Jose Molina and Eric Hinske and Chad Gaudin more valuable than Ichiro, Joe Mauer and Zack Greinke? This is a serious question.
As to your other point, it wouldn't be succesful for the Twins team no........but not becasue of anything Mauer did though. This is a serious question as well; If Mauer was hitting .450 would the Twins be appreciably better? I think not. Clearly a very successful year for Mauer individually. But not for the Twins as a team. I think a distinction can be made here.
As for MOP vs MVP, like I said earlier, isn't that just semantics?
I say they are valuable in different ways. Hairston, Molina and Gaudin didn't lead their team to the playoffs. Jeter and Tex were the key components in leading the Yanks to the playoffs. Mauer and Morneau are 1 and 2 for the Twins' most valuable player, but not in the league.
So what all the Mauer fans are sayin is if Mauer hits 400 with 50 homers and 100 RBI's and the twins finish 20 games below 500 then he should get MVP.....The main goal in MLB is to get to the championship and help your team get there....anyone with that bad of a record should not be in consideration....I like Mauer but he is not the MVP....
Dumbest thing I ever read. Really.
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Quote Originally Posted by mmcoolj:
So what all the Mauer fans are sayin is if Mauer hits 400 with 50 homers and 100 RBI's and the twins finish 20 games below 500 then he should get MVP.....The main goal in MLB is to get to the championship and help your team get there....anyone with that bad of a record should not be in consideration....I like Mauer but he is not the MVP....
Last year there was a 1 game playoff in the AL to get to the playoffs. Say that happens to the Twins this year and they play the White Sox. Say Mauer goes 5-5 in the game with 5 HRs but the Twins lose because their pitching staff sucks. He is no longer as valuable as Jermaine Dye?
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Last year there was a 1 game playoff in the AL to get to the playoffs. Say that happens to the Twins this year and they play the White Sox. Say Mauer goes 5-5 in the game with 5 HRs but the Twins lose because their pitching staff sucks. He is no longer as valuable as Jermaine Dye?
Why stop your argument at playoffs then. Would the best player on a divisional winner be more valuable than the best player on the wild card team. Would the best player on the team with the best record in the AL be more valuable than the best player on the team that finishes one game behind them on the season.
The award is named properly. Mauer adds just as much value to the twins and probably more than any other player in the AL.
Of course not, because the goal for every team is to try and make the playoffs. Say the Rangers win the Wild Card, Young would be up for discussion and Youkilis wouldn't(the way I see things). If the goal isn't achieved, how can you be valuable? I think value is based on the outcome. You see people on here all day making "value bets". Well...how good is that "value" if the bet loses?
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Quote Originally Posted by billieman:
Why stop your argument at playoffs then. Would the best player on a divisional winner be more valuable than the best player on the wild card team. Would the best player on the team with the best record in the AL be more valuable than the best player on the team that finishes one game behind them on the season.
The award is named properly. Mauer adds just as much value to the twins and probably more than any other player in the AL.
Of course not, because the goal for every team is to try and make the playoffs. Say the Rangers win the Wild Card, Young would be up for discussion and Youkilis wouldn't(the way I see things). If the goal isn't achieved, how can you be valuable? I think value is based on the outcome. You see people on here all day making "value bets". Well...how good is that "value" if the bet loses?
Of course not, because the goal for every team is to try and make the playoffs. Say the Rangers win the Wild Card, Young would be up for discussion and Youkilis wouldn't(the way I see things). If the goal isn't achieved, how can you be valuable? I think value is based on the outcome. You see people on here all day making "value bets". Well...how good is that "value" if the bet loses?
Making the playoffs means nothing unless you win the World Series. Ask any player.
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Quote Originally Posted by Sparky10191:
Of course not, because the goal for every team is to try and make the playoffs. Say the Rangers win the Wild Card, Young would be up for discussion and Youkilis wouldn't(the way I see things). If the goal isn't achieved, how can you be valuable? I think value is based on the outcome. You see people on here all day making "value bets". Well...how good is that "value" if the bet loses?
Making the playoffs means nothing unless you win the World Series. Ask any player.
So just because a players team misses the playoffs he should be removed from MVP consideration?
A great hitting catcher is much more VALUABLE than a great hitting shortstop. But with that aside, look at their stats and tell me who is having the better season Mauer or Jeter? You can't make the case for Jeter. Look at the team he is on; they went out and spent over a billion dollars on FA's this offseason. Jeter is not the reason this team is in the playoffs, Sabathia and Burnett are the reasons they will be in the playoffs. It's not like Mauer is on a team that is in the cellar.
I am sorry Sparky I know you love your Yanks and would love to see Jeter win this but to me this one is an easy call on Mauer. When he is having a season that only 4 or so guys have ever had it makes it a special season and one deserving of an MVP.
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So just because a players team misses the playoffs he should be removed from MVP consideration?
A great hitting catcher is much more VALUABLE than a great hitting shortstop. But with that aside, look at their stats and tell me who is having the better season Mauer or Jeter? You can't make the case for Jeter. Look at the team he is on; they went out and spent over a billion dollars on FA's this offseason. Jeter is not the reason this team is in the playoffs, Sabathia and Burnett are the reasons they will be in the playoffs. It's not like Mauer is on a team that is in the cellar.
I am sorry Sparky I know you love your Yanks and would love to see Jeter win this but to me this one is an easy call on Mauer. When he is having a season that only 4 or so guys have ever had it makes it a special season and one deserving of an MVP.
Last year there was a 1 game playoff in the AL to get to the playoffs. Say that happens to the Twins this year and they play the White Sox. Say Mauer goes 5-5 in the game with 5 HRs but the Twins lose because their pitching staff sucks. He is no longer as valuable as Jermaine Dye?
Dye would certainly not be on my A-list for the Sox but thats besides the point. And if he went 5-5 with 5 HRs and lost, that would be a shame but seriously...did he play in an ALDS? ALCS? World Series? Thats the ultimate goal. If they can't make that step, it's s worthless season.
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Quote Originally Posted by billieman:
Last year there was a 1 game playoff in the AL to get to the playoffs. Say that happens to the Twins this year and they play the White Sox. Say Mauer goes 5-5 in the game with 5 HRs but the Twins lose because their pitching staff sucks. He is no longer as valuable as Jermaine Dye?
Dye would certainly not be on my A-list for the Sox but thats besides the point. And if he went 5-5 with 5 HRs and lost, that would be a shame but seriously...did he play in an ALDS? ALCS? World Series? Thats the ultimate goal. If they can't make that step, it's s worthless season.
I am off to lunch. Its always fun to argue great topics especially when I should be working haha.. Great thread Sparky. Its fun to hear arguments from both sides.
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I am off to lunch. Its always fun to argue great topics especially when I should be working haha.. Great thread Sparky. Its fun to hear arguments from both sides.
Making the playoffs means nothing unless you win the World Series. Ask any player.
I would disagree. Say the Nationals have a Rays-like season next year but lose in the NLDS. That wouldn't be a failure for them because it's a HUGE step up from where they were before.
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Quote Originally Posted by billieman:
Making the playoffs means nothing unless you win the World Series. Ask any player.
I would disagree. Say the Nationals have a Rays-like season next year but lose in the NLDS. That wouldn't be a failure for them because it's a HUGE step up from where they were before.
So just because a players team misses the playoffs he should be removed from MVP consideration?
A great hitting catcher is much more VALUABLE than a great hitting shortstop. But with that aside, look at their stats and tell me who is having the better season Mauer or Jeter? You can't make the case for Jeter. Look at the team he is on; they went out and spent over a billion dollars on FA's this offseason. Jeter is not the reason this team is in the playoffs, Sabathia and Burnett are the reasons they will be in the playoffs. It's not like Mauer is on a team that is in the cellar.
I am sorry Sparky I know you love your Yanks and would love to see Jeter win this but to me this one is an easy call on Mauer. When he is having a season that only 4 or so guys have ever had it makes it a special season and one deserving of an MVP.
And we're back to the point I've made. Nobody in the AL is having a better season than Mauer. So there should be an award for that type of player. The Most Outstanding Player...or the BEST. If Billy Butler was putting up numbers like that and his team was in last place why should he get the MVP?
And sure I would love to see Jeter win the MVP, but if he doesn't, he doesn't. I still think a playoff team should have the season's MVP. Whether it's Cabrera(if the Tigers make it to the playoffs), or Bobby Abreu. That's the point I'm trying to make.
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Quote Originally Posted by DTher85:
So just because a players team misses the playoffs he should be removed from MVP consideration?
A great hitting catcher is much more VALUABLE than a great hitting shortstop. But with that aside, look at their stats and tell me who is having the better season Mauer or Jeter? You can't make the case for Jeter. Look at the team he is on; they went out and spent over a billion dollars on FA's this offseason. Jeter is not the reason this team is in the playoffs, Sabathia and Burnett are the reasons they will be in the playoffs. It's not like Mauer is on a team that is in the cellar.
I am sorry Sparky I know you love your Yanks and would love to see Jeter win this but to me this one is an easy call on Mauer. When he is having a season that only 4 or so guys have ever had it makes it a special season and one deserving of an MVP.
And we're back to the point I've made. Nobody in the AL is having a better season than Mauer. So there should be an award for that type of player. The Most Outstanding Player...or the BEST. If Billy Butler was putting up numbers like that and his team was in last place why should he get the MVP?
And sure I would love to see Jeter win the MVP, but if he doesn't, he doesn't. I still think a playoff team should have the season's MVP. Whether it's Cabrera(if the Tigers make it to the playoffs), or Bobby Abreu. That's the point I'm trying to make.
The player has to come from a playoff team, I'm a Minny homer and Mauer is the best offensive player in the AL and neck and neck with Pujols lets not forget Mauer was out for the first half of the season.
As far as a pitcher goes no way, I have not seen any pitcher in the AL carry their team.
I think JOHNNY DAMON should be the MVP yes Jeter is having a record year and playing his best defense, but look at DAMON Fuck he's slugging better than he ever has and has helped the Yanks win in extras and late innings more times than i can count this season
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The player has to come from a playoff team, I'm a Minny homer and Mauer is the best offensive player in the AL and neck and neck with Pujols lets not forget Mauer was out for the first half of the season.
As far as a pitcher goes no way, I have not seen any pitcher in the AL carry their team.
I think JOHNNY DAMON should be the MVP yes Jeter is having a record year and playing his best defense, but look at DAMON Fuck he's slugging better than he ever has and has helped the Yanks win in extras and late innings more times than i can count this season
Which is why I think they should change the name of the award or add the Most Outstanding Player award. At the end of the season, if the Twins don't make the playoffs, do you think Mauer will say it was a successful season? I just don't see it.
Only in recent history has MVP changed from going to the Player with the best season to the best player on the winning team. The whole philosophy is flawed and done to generate more revenue and fan fair from the large market teams, the teams that make the playoffs.
MVP, most valuable player, does not stand for most valuable player on your team but the Most Valuable Player in all of baseball for that one season.
Right now if every AL player was up for auction Joe Mauer would be the Most Valuable Commodity (Player) for this one season. That is what MVP is not the fabricated meaning that ESPN and all the marketing people claim it is because they are just trying to create revenue and more people will watch their programs if the MVP comes from the Red Sox or Yankees or a large market team in the playoffs.
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Quote Originally Posted by Sparky10191:
Which is why I think they should change the name of the award or add the Most Outstanding Player award. At the end of the season, if the Twins don't make the playoffs, do you think Mauer will say it was a successful season? I just don't see it.
Only in recent history has MVP changed from going to the Player with the best season to the best player on the winning team. The whole philosophy is flawed and done to generate more revenue and fan fair from the large market teams, the teams that make the playoffs.
MVP, most valuable player, does not stand for most valuable player on your team but the Most Valuable Player in all of baseball for that one season.
Right now if every AL player was up for auction Joe Mauer would be the Most Valuable Commodity (Player) for this one season. That is what MVP is not the fabricated meaning that ESPN and all the marketing people claim it is because they are just trying to create revenue and more people will watch their programs if the MVP comes from the Red Sox or Yankees or a large market team in the playoffs.
It's not much fun being a baseball fan in a small market. Our chances of winning a World Series is small. It can happen but it requires the stars to line-up and all your prospects and decisions to pan out at the same time. If we are going to make the MVP and other such awards contingent on making the playoffs then I think the game will further alienate much of it's fan base.
At what point would a player from a losing team merit consideration for this award? If they hit .400? Drive in 200 runs? Hit 70 home runs? A player can be very "valuable" to his team without them making the playoffs. The best player to me is inherently the most valuable to their team. If they are the "best" then how can they not be the Most Valuable? One player can't win a game for a team. Hell, Mauer could be hitting .500 and the Twins would still be out of the playoffs probably, how is that his fault?
Bingo.
Baseball has alienated their mid-small markets and that is why baseball has lost ground and started to slip due to no level playing field for competitive balance.
FYI for all baseball fans. The Yankees pay the MLB and have other practices to keep a 3rd team out of the NYC metro area and that is why no other franchise in the history of MLB will ever be able to compete with the Yankees year in and year out.
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Quote Originally Posted by mmac66:
It's not much fun being a baseball fan in a small market. Our chances of winning a World Series is small. It can happen but it requires the stars to line-up and all your prospects and decisions to pan out at the same time. If we are going to make the MVP and other such awards contingent on making the playoffs then I think the game will further alienate much of it's fan base.
At what point would a player from a losing team merit consideration for this award? If they hit .400? Drive in 200 runs? Hit 70 home runs? A player can be very "valuable" to his team without them making the playoffs. The best player to me is inherently the most valuable to their team. If they are the "best" then how can they not be the Most Valuable? One player can't win a game for a team. Hell, Mauer could be hitting .500 and the Twins would still be out of the playoffs probably, how is that his fault?
Bingo.
Baseball has alienated their mid-small markets and that is why baseball has lost ground and started to slip due to no level playing field for competitive balance.
FYI for all baseball fans. The Yankees pay the MLB and have other practices to keep a 3rd team out of the NYC metro area and that is why no other franchise in the history of MLB will ever be able to compete with the Yankees year in and year out.
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nailed it, my feelings exactly.
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