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Jane Doe - Good Athiest

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Posted: #26
Quote Originally Posted by Ktrain:


Good and bad is subjective under Christianity as well. 

This is evidenced by Christian support for Eric Rudolph. 




Seems like murder is ok in with Christians in certain instances. Btw, among his crimes was killing a cop. 

Seems like adultery is ok as well now. 


Sounds pretty nice to pick and choose the times you can follow the 10 commandments. 


Your religion is contradictory and hypocritical. 



 
ones values and what he/she considers 'good' or 'bad' is a reflection of  character and can be independent of religion

that being said, it doesnt matter what religion you believe in, your political affiliation, socio-economic status, race, etc if you have good moral-fiber its pretty easy to understand eric rudolph is a heartless, murdering, piece of shiiit

 
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Posted: #27
Quote Originally Posted by HutchEmAll:


"Good" might be "objective" under Christianity, but doesn't that go out the window when God forgives those who are repentant?

A murderer who finds God before he is executed.  Murder....bad by all accounts (not just by Christians), but this guy is saved because he is repentant and believes in God.  

The fact that murder is "bad" under the umbrella of Christianity means absolutely nothing to this person.  

You can define all the things you want.....what matters is what that actually means.  

"We have a set of "good" rules you should live by.  However, if you don't live by those rules but believe in God and repent, you're good to go."  

Really?

Objective morality is when something is right or wrong independent of human thought. It must be given by a moral law giver. That moral law giver is God.

In terms of the murderer, what you are effectively asking is, will one be saved, will someone end up in heaven or hell? The question is, NO ONE KNOWS. No one knows because no one can read the hearts of men, no one knows if they are truly repentant. No one knows this, so asking the question is an exercise in futility.

 

 
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Posted: #28
Quote Originally Posted by Ktrain:


Good and bad is subjective under Christianity as well. 

This is evidenced by Christian support for Eric Rudolph. 




Seems like murder is ok in with Christians in certain instances. Btw, among his crimes was killing a cop. 

Seems like adultery is ok as well now. 


Sounds pretty nice to pick and choose the times you can follow the 10 commandments. 


Your religion is contradictory and hypocritical. 



Ktrain

It doesn't matter what man says, ie, man that is in religion. What is important is, what scripture says.

Man can take scripture and twist and turn it for all its worth. You then don't say that it is contradictory. If the law clearly states murder is wrong, but I say murder is right under our law, does that mean the law is contradictory?

 
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Posted: #29

As I said, under atheism , morality is subjective. People on this site and others I have debated with, claim this and are advocates of this. However, when we apply real life examples, it falls over.

If something is subjective, then it is one persons tastes. Taste in food, drink, music, art, woman, men, sport, holiday destination are all subjective.

If something is objective, it is true INDEPENDENT of human opinion. For example, 1+1 =2 . That is an objective truth, It doesn't matter what you or I think it is, 1+1 =2.

Notice when we apply the blow torch to advocates of subjective morality, the going gets tough?

If you saw your friend date a girl that is 5 foot tall and weighs 350 pounds, your immediate thoughts are "well, I don't find that attractive at all, actually revolting". Now, will you ever in your mind say, "well, my friend is wrong for dating this girl because her looks don't satisfy your tastes"? Of course not. You have no right to say your friend is right or wrong to date a girl who you don't find attractive, simply because taste in woman is subjective.

See how this is consistent? Taste in woman is subjective, when someone finds another woman attractive that you don't, you simply say, its not my taste, you never ever say that person is wrong for finding that woman attractive, as is the case with the short fat woman above.

Now, lets turn it to morality, where we will see huge contradictions of advocates in subjective morality.

when you saw what Aerial Castro did, do you view his actions in the same manner as you do with that friend of your who dated that fat woman? Of course you don't. Automatically, you bring in a sense of "right and wrong". You automatically think, right and wrong when it comes to morality. See how subjective morality never works in real life?

If you saw someone enjoying an ice cream flavour that you don't like , do you react the same way to this person as you did when you heard about Aerial Castro?

If you did, then you are consistent with you Atheism. If you did not, then you are contradicting your Atheism.

 
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Posted: #30
Rostos,

I mean this with the utmost sincerity: wtf are you talking about? Seriously.

This is exactly how your post came across to me: subjective morality....atheism....fat chick...Ariel Castro....ice cream.

This is what bothers me with religion. You ask a simple question and you get a five paragraph response stating that there is no simple answer.

I tell 14daroad what I have heard about getting into heaven i.e repenting, seeking forgiveness and Jesus, etc. what I get in return is that nowhere in the bible does it say that word for word. I say ok, what is the criteria for getting saved/into heaven. I get no answer or an extremely vague response which clarifies nothing. I'm getting the same thing from you, although I somewhat do enjoy the fat chick/ice cream analogies. That is definitely a new response that I haven't heard of before.

Here is the deal: we have essentially the same definitions of subjective and objective morality here. If there is a difference it appears to be minimal at best.

My issue with religion, particularly Christianity since that is prevalent in current western culture and our discussion, is that I'm finding it to be subjective.

It seems to be ok to murder income instances i.e. abortion clinics. It seems to be ok to committ adultery according to rebounded Christian spokesman and 700 Club show host Pat Robertson, so long as a man puts food on the table, a roof over a women's head, and clothes on her back. Now the pope has said that atheist who are good at heart at perform good deeds are eligible for Heaven (see Clubdirts thread in the GD).

IMO, the way people interpret the bible makes the bible subjective. You may read it one way, another Christian may read it another. You can say its clear as day but the fact is that it's written in a language not commonly used today and is being taught in different manners by different people. There are very literal interpretations of the bible being taught and more metaphorical interpretations being taught.

That is the same exact thing as one person teaching that dating fat girls or eating vanila ice cream is wrong while another says it's right. That's subjective according to you (and me also).

I've also read certain posters on hear differentiate between the old testament and new testament as if the old testament isn't included in the bible. What's your view on this Rostos? Because if the old testament isn't the included in the same bible then why follow it?
 
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Posted: #31
Sorry for grammatical mistakes, I'm just not good at typing on phones.
 
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Posted: #32

Quote Originally Posted by Ktrain:

Rostos,

I mean this with the utmost sincerity: wtf are you talking about? Seriously.

This is exactly how your post came across to me: subjective morality....atheism....fat chick...Ariel Castro....ice cream.

My post shows the category of commentary should not change when discussing morality amongst other things.

This is what bothers me with religion. You ask a simple question and you get a five paragraph response stating that there is no simple answer.

I tell 14daroad what I have heard about getting into heaven i.e repenting, seeking forgiveness and Jesus, etc. what I get in return is that nowhere in the bible does it say that word for word. I say ok, what is the criteria for getting saved/into heaven. I get no answer or an extremely vague response which clarifies nothing. I'm getting the same thing from you, although I somewhat do enjoy the fat chick/ice cream analogies. That is definitely a new response that I haven't heard of before.

My examples were to highlight the difference between objective and subjective morality.

Here is the deal: we have essentially the same definitions of subjective and objective morality here. If there is a difference it appears to be minimal at best.

My issue with religion, particularly Christianity since that is prevalent in current western culture and our discussion, is that I'm finding it to be subjective.

How can morality be seen as subjective under Christianity? If God gives his moral law, how can that be seen as subjective?

It seems to be ok to murder income instances i.e. abortion clinics. It seems to be ok to committ adultery according to rebounded Christian spokesman and 700 Club show host Pat Robertson, so long as a man puts food on the table, a roof over a women's head, and clothes on her back. Now the pope has said that atheist who are good at heart at perform good deeds are eligible for Heaven (see Clubdirts thread in the GD).

Why are you quoting what people outside scripture say? What is there authority?


IMO, the way people interpret the bible makes the bible subjective. You may read it one way, another Christian may read it another. You can say its clear as day but the fact is that it's written in a language not commonly used today and is being taught in different manners by different people. There are very literal interpretations of the bible being taught and more metaphorical interpretations being taught.

It is pretty clear to me, don't murder, lie, steal rape, have sex outside marriage , no homosexuality...what is it not clear about?

That is the same exact thing as one person teaching that dating fat girls or eating vanila ice cream is wrong while another says it's right. That's subjective according to you (and me also).

I've also read certain posters on hear differentiate between the old testament and new testament as if the old testament isn't included in the bible. What's your view on this Rostos? Because if the old testament isn't the included in the same bible then why follow it?

The OT was the old covenant. We are not bound by this, Jesus makes this very clear. The OT was for people under a theocracy, which we are not.

 
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Posted: #33
How do people committ murder in the name of God? How do members of the church convince themselves that sleeping with a minor is "exactly what Christ desired". How do they condone adultery?

You can say that God's word might be objective, however man's interpretation of it definitely isn't.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2013/03/20/jack-schaap-sentenced-ind_n_2918139.html

If the biggest fear these people are supposed to have is to spend eternity in hell, they sure aren't acting like it. Seems like they aren't afraid of the reprocussions of their actions at all.
 
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Posted: #34

Quote Originally Posted by Ktrain:

How do people committ murder in the name of God? How do members of the church convince themselves that sleeping with a minor is "exactly what Christ desired". How do they condone adultery?

Does Jesus teach anywhere to murder? where does Jesus tell / teach to sleep with minors? Commit adultery. I would like to think that rational people could see through this.

You can say that God's word might be objective, however man's interpretation of it definitely isn't.

Man interprets it to satisfy there own desires. Again, I would like to think rational people could see through this.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2013/03/20/jack-schaap-sentenced-ind_n_2918139.html

If the biggest fear these people are supposed to have is to spend eternity in hell, they sure aren't acting like it. Seems like they aren't afraid of the reprocussions of their actions at all.

Jesus warned of hypocrites.

 
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Posted: #35
Rostos,

If you're not bound by the OT, does that mean Genesis gets thrown out the window?

I think it's ironic that you say rational people could see through this. Then say that an entity in the sky, of which there is zero proof of, gives certain people objective morality but not others.

 
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Posted: #36

Quote Originally Posted by Ktrain:

Rostos,

If you're not bound by the OT, does that mean Genesis gets thrown out the window?

Jesus abolished the OT. He fulfilled the Mosaic law. Therefore, it does not apply to us anymore.

Genesis is not to be read literally. This is not to a statement based on recent scientific discoveries. This was stated several hundreds of years ago well before these scientific discoveries. Genesis has no impact in my life in terms of how I should live.



I think it's ironic that you say rational people could see through this. Then say that an entity in the sky, of which there is zero proof of, gives certain people objective morality but not others.

Or we can believe the universe popped into existence from nothing? Life came from non life?

Whatever floats your boat.



 

 
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Posted: #37

I tell 14daroad what I have heard about getting into heaven i.e repenting, seeking forgiveness and Jesus, etc. what I get in return is that nowhere in the bible does it say that word for word. I say ok, what is the criteria for getting saved/into heaven. I get no answer or an extremely vague response which clarifies nothing

That's because we don't know and the Bible doesn't say.

I've told you this before, your response was "nuh-uh" and you posted a bunch of links that don't say what you say they do.

Jesus did not promise or guarantee Heaven to anyone, for doing any specific thing.

Why you keep asking this question is not clear.

 
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Posted: #38
Quote Originally Posted by 14daroad:

I tell 14daroad what I have heard about getting into heaven i.e repenting, seeking forgiveness and Jesus, etc. what I get in return is that nowhere in the bible does it say that word for word. I say ok, what is the criteria for getting saved/into heaven. I get no answer or an extremely vague response which clarifies nothing

That's because we don't know and the Bible doesn't say.

I've told you this before, your response was "nuh-uh" and you posted a bunch of links that don't say what you say they do.

Jesus did not promise or guarantee Heaven to anyone, for doing any specific thing.

Why you keep asking this question is not clear.


doesn't really matter if the bible says or not...heaven is just another fairytale in a book of fairytales...
wake up people, you die, that's it...sorry to spoil your day...
 
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Posted: #39
Quote Originally Posted by Ktrain:

Rostos,

I mean this with the utmost sincerity: wtf are you talking about? Seriously.

This is exactly how your post came across to me: subjective morality....atheism....fat chick...Ariel Castro....ice cream.

This is what bothers me with religion. You ask a simple question and you get a five paragraph response stating that there is no simple answer.

I tell 14daroad what I have heard about getting into heaven i.e repenting, seeking forgiveness and Jesus, etc. what I get in return is that nowhere in the bible does it say that word for word. I say ok, what is the criteria for getting saved/into heaven. I get no answer or an extremely vague response which clarifies nothing. I'm getting the same thing from you, although I somewhat do enjoy the fat chick/ice cream analogies. That is definitely a new response that I haven't heard of before.

Here is the deal: we have essentially the same definitions of subjective and objective morality here. If there is a difference it appears to be minimal at best.

My issue with religion, particularly Christianity since that is prevalent in current western culture and our discussion, is that I'm finding it to be subjective.

It seems to be ok to murder income instances i.e. abortion clinics. It seems to be ok to committ adultery according to rebounded Christian spokesman and 700 Club show host Pat Robertson, so long as a man puts food on the table, a roof over a women's head, and clothes on her back. Now the pope has said that atheist who are good at heart at perform good deeds are eligible for Heaven (see Clubdirts thread in the GD).

IMO, the way people interpret the bible makes the bible subjective. You may read it one way, another Christian may read it another. You can say its clear as day but the fact is that it's written in a language not commonly used today and is being taught in different manners by different people. There are very literal interpretations of the bible being taught and more metaphorical interpretations being taught.

That is the same exact thing as one person teaching that dating fat girls or eating vanila ice cream is wrong while another says it's right. That's subjective according to you (and me also).

I've also read certain posters on hear differentiate between the old testament and new testament as if the old testament isn't included in the bible. What's your view on this Rostos? Because if the old testament isn't the included in the same bible then why follow it?

 
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Posted: #40
"That's because we don't know and the Bible doesn't say.

I've told you this before, your response was "nuh-uh" and you posted a bunch of links that don't say what you say they do.

Jesus did not promise or guarantee Heaven to anyone, for doing any specific thing."

Then why follow Christianity?

You don't need the bible to be a good person and have a good moral compass.
 
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Posted: #41
If there is a God he's a cruel phucking fool.  What was that elementary school full of kids in the Oklahoma tornado suppose to be about?
 
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Posted: #42
so, acehole = fool
 
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Posted: #43

Quote Originally Posted by Ktrain:



Then why follow Christianity?

You don't need the bible to be a good person and have a good moral compass.

That's funny. It is interesting to see how the minds of non-believers work.

"If you don't give me something, I'm not doing anything"

 
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Posted: #44

Oh, and as a point of fact, the idea that murder & stealing are wrong, for example, come from the Bible.

So the very idea of moral grounding comes from the Bible. And if you're interested in having a fulfilling life, God shows us the way.

 
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Posted: #45
So murder and stealing weren't wrong before Jesus came along?

Also, if there is no set criteria for getting into heaven, then doesn't that make getting into a heaven a subjective process?

It just seems like Christianity keeps everything nice and vague.

I think it's just as funny to listen to believers explain their religion: I live a certain way because an entity, of which I have no proof of existence, tells me too. So I can get to a place, of which I have no proof of existence, where I can spend eternity even though I have no idea of the criteria for getting into this place.

Whatever works for you I guess.

 
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Posted: #46

It just seems like Christianity keeps everything nice and vague

Well, except for the 10 commandments, the stories on how to treat your familiy and fellow human beings, and the direction on faith and all of that. All of which are explicit.

live a certain way because an entity, of which I have no proof of existence, tells me too. So I can get to a place

Wrong assumption.

You are presuming we are instructed to walk along the path that Jesus left for us to get to Heaven. That isn't true.

This guy gives you a hint:

https://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=45397

 

 
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Posted: #47
That's odd because people all over the world through out history of time, have managed to live fulfilling lives and treated their fellow man with compassion WITHOUT reading the bible or knowing of a Christian God.

I'm still wondering if murder and rape were wrong before Jesus came? Rostos already told me the Old Testament isn't binding so everything in that book is irrelevant apparently.
 
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Posted: #48

people all over the world through out history of time, have managed to live fulfilling lives and treated their fellow man with compassion WITHOUT reading the bible or knowing of a Christian God.

Something you couldn't posbbily prove.

You are going from 1 level of misunderstanding to another.

Nothing about your comments (you keep repeating lies such as "Christians" approve of Rudolph and Pat Robertson approves of infedility) indicates you are talking about this in good faith.

So I'll leave it there.

 
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Posted: #49
Quote Originally Posted by 14daroad:

Oh, and as a point of fact, the idea that murder & stealing are wrong, for example, come from the Bible.

So the very idea of moral grounding comes from the Bible. And if you're interested in having a fulfilling life, God shows us the way.


and that same bible gives us the idea that murder, rape, and slavery are alright...
 
 
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Posted: #50
Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


and that same bible gives us the idea that murder, rape, and slavery are alright...


you want to try and explain how you ever would have known murder (except of dark skinned people in the middle east who favor a different god) and stealing (except natural resources of said dark skinned people) are wrong if you hadn't read the bible? 


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