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Quote Originally Posted by thorpe:

QUOTE Originally Posted by Rostos: LOL Bitcoin keeps on going up because other people think it is going up, not because of anything intrinsic.. Just a group of market participants saying "because we say so". Nothing more, nothing less People want to buy it because they believe it has several advantages over other forms of currency.

So why are most people HOLDING IT in the hope that its price rises so they can sell it and hence convert it to FIAT?

That doesnt seem to be one of the hall marks of a currency now does it?

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Of course holders want to praise it and bag anyone that doesn't agree with it, because that is all they have. Hype to drive the price up. That is all they have.

I mean, you cant look at anything else objective and point to it.

At least with a fiat currency, you can say, look, the U.S economy is over heating, this results in inflationary pressure and hence interest rates will rise. There will be a demand for US dollars for such a case. If anyone praises or bags the US dollar, then who cares, it has no bearing in such a case because there is objective econimic data to support your argument.

Same goes for a stock. Who cares if people bag it, the price will for the most part reflect underlying fundamentals irrespective of ones feelings.

Crypto fan boys cannot point to anything objective except hype, good publicity and feelings and that is why anything that is negative is FUD because it ruins there dreams of getting rich.

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LOL

Bitcoin keeps on going up because other people think it is going up, not because of anything intrinsic..

Just a group of market participants saying "because we say so".

Nothing more, nothing less

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Quote Originally Posted by Kaufee:

QUOTE Originally Posted by Rostos: That is ONLY from an ICO perspective (PRIMARY MARKET) If i wanted to but any crypto do i have to go through Bitcoin? The answer is NO Actually, you need it (or ETH) to buy almost all other alt coins

But you dont need Bitcoin

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Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:

QUOTE Originally Posted by Rostos: QUOTE Originally Posted by I_Need_A_Detox: Yeah, answer it. Hang on.  That is my argument exactly. This has added to the imaginary value for Bitcoin due to the injection of funds for from the ICO's. Again, it is nothing more than a "because we say so". You are funny Rostos. First you take this position:  "Bitcoin only has value if there is something I want that I HAVE TO USE IT" Then Detox points out that in order to buy ICO's and most Alt Coins - you need bitcoin - and you ignore your first position and say that in this case it adds "imaginary value to bitcoin due to having to spend for ICOs" Jeesh.  Ridiculous.

That is ONLY from an ICO perspective (PRIMARY MARKET)

If i wanted to but any crypto do i have to go through Bitcoin?

The answer is NO

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Quote Originally Posted by I_Need_A_Detox:

Yeah, answer it.

Hang on. 

That is my argument exactly. This has added to the imaginary value for Bitcoin due to the injection of funds for from the ICO's.

Again, it is nothing more than a "because we say so".

 

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Quote Originally Posted by I_Need_A_Detox:

How do you invest in an ICO without BTC or ETH? I’ll wait for your answer.

WHAT? Is that a serious question?

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Quote Originally Posted by Kaufee:

Lol, well we tried Vanzack. You can lead a horse to the water...

You guys are just too emotionally invested in it because you hold it.

Nothing more.

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Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:

QUOTE Originally Posted by Rostos: Limited supply, so WHAT? You do NOT need bitcoin to transact cryptos. Your case would ONLY hold water if for example a supplier for a good that is in demand ONLY accepted Bitcoin as a means of payment. Cmon man, economics 101 Rostos - what if I was in international trade.  Every time I sent USD to Germany I have to do a currency transaction, and a bank wire.  On a 1,000 dollar payment, it costs me 20 in currency transaction fees and 50 in wire fees, takes 3 days, and I have to go to my bank and spend a half hour to do it. OR I can send BTC and be done in 10 seconds and costs close to nothing. The above is a case where BTC is BETTER.  It doesnt need to be the ONLY choice, it simply needs to be a BETTER choice.

Can you SERIOUSLY NOT READ?

WHERE did i argue AGAINST BITCOIN AS A CURRENCY?

Why are you throwing me arguments in favour of Bitcoin as a function of its use as a currency?

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Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:

Rostos - I am not doing this with you again.  I learned my lesson the last time around. Bitcoins value is based on the fact that it is decentralized and limited supply. If people stop believing that is important, it will go down.  If people continue to believe that is important, it will go up. Economics 101.

Just LIKE EVERY OTHER CRYPTO.

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Quote Originally Posted by I_Need_A_Detox:

You need Bitcoin or Ethereum to buy other cryptos on 90% of the exchanges. I think NEO and Qtum might also be used on some Asian exchanges. All ICO’s take payments in ETH or BTC. BTC is the backbone of the crypto universe.

Not when you but them through an ICO which are dime a dozen today

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Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:

QUOTE Originally Posted by Rostos: Sure it can still rise $50k, $100k, whatever, but that value is nothing more than because the participants say so. Has nothing to do with anything objective or an underlying fundamental. And BTW - we already described the underlying fundamental.  I remember these debates with you from years ago Rostos, you get the answer to a question you ask, ignore it, and keep asking the question. Here it is again: 1.  Finite supply 2.  Decentralized Those that believe in those two underlying fundamentals and their relative importance are what makes BTC go up or down.

Limited supply, so WHAT? You do NOT need bitcoin to transact cryptos.

Your case would ONLY hold water if for example a supplier for a good that is in demand ONLY accepted Bitcoin as a means of payment.

Cmon man, economics 101

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Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:

QUOTE Originally Posted by Rostos: Sure it can still rise $50k, $100k, whatever, but that value is nothing more than because the participants say so. Has nothing to do with anything objective or an underlying fundamental. You are basically describing every single monitary system in the world.

 

Wrong, currency values are determined by market participants which are in turn based on underlying fundamentals.

For example, the US dollar may increase if data comes out showing inflationary pressure. This pressure could lead to an increase in interest rates thereby resulting in an increase in demand for the US dollar due to increased returns due to higher interest rates.

Bitcoin is determined by NOTHING other than participants saying so based absolutely nothing but how they feel.

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Quote Originally Posted by Kaufee:

Bitcoin was first to the game and is the pioneer of all cryptos. Being first gives it a distinct advantage over the rest. Bitcoin is so big now that if it were to collapse, the entire market would likely go down with it. It literally drives the ecosystem. In most cases, you need Bitcoin (or ETH) to even buy other crypto currencies. In other words, without it the market would not operate or function correctly. You can’t say that about any other crypto.It’s original intention was as a currency. It has since turned into a store of value as well. Because there are only 21 million, there is a limited supply. Approximately 4 million have been lost, leaving only 17 million in circulation. That’s a very limited supply and because it is scarce, it is valuable. It is considered the digital Gold because it has similar characteristics to Gold. The best part is you don’t need to lose your life savings investing in it. It’s still very early and lots of money can be made with minimal risk.. Only invest what you can afford to lose. It may just be the smartest thing you ever did.

I agree that the other currencies have a correlation in regards to Bitcoins value. But that is all it is, a correlation to its value.

Has nothing to do with it as a function of currency. 

Again, i have over 1300 cryptos to choose from if i wanted to buy something if i dont want to use FIAT.

There is absolutely no reason for me to ever need Bitcoin.

Sure it can still rise $50k, $100k, whatever, but that value is nothing more than because the participants say so. Has nothing to do with anything objective or an underlying fundamental.

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Quote Originally Posted by Kaufee:

BTC, Cryptocurrency in general, and the Blockchain is here to stay. It’s going to change the world. If you don’t see how that’s possible, please do some research and educate yourself. Reading through this thread, it’s evident that many of you (looking at you Rostos) don’t even know what blockchain technology is. Once you understand it, you will see what Vanzack and a few others are trying to convey. If you educate yourself and you still don’t see it as the future, then okay - don’t invest in it. There were plenty of people that didn’t believe in the internet. There were plenty of people that didn’t believe in Google, Apple, Amazon, Netflix, etc, etc. Their early investors made out okay, right?I’ll be holding onto (hodl) my BTC and ETH. Bump this thread in 5 years and again in 10 years and we’ll see who’s laughing then.

 

And again, you do not even understand my argument.

I never argued anything against crypto's as a currency or block chain.

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Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:

QUOTE Originally Posted by I_Need_A_Detox: The value of bitcoin and most of the other cryptos is that they’re decentralized and are not subject to government inflation. If you took $10,000 and put it in a safe, and took another $10,000 and bought Bitcoin, in 20 years the difference in value of the two will be astronomical. Hey, not everyone can see it. That’s ok. Rostos - please read this again. There is a limited qty (21m).  It is decentralized. There is no other currency / commodity that fits these two criteria. That is the value.  And as Detox says - some people see it - and some dont - and that is fine.

 

So why do i need Bitcoin and not any of the other 1300 cryotos that i can buy that will essentially do exactly the same thing?

Please explain.

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Quote Originally Posted by thorpe:

QUOTE Originally Posted by Rostos: What is the value of Bitcoin based on? This is so hilarious and in my opinion shows the stupidity of human beings. The price/value is based on the market? But what are the participants in the market basing it on? There are no underlying fundamentals to base it off. So what are the participants basing it off? Essentially it is nothing more than participants valuing it based on nothing but "because i say so". Essentially what side of the bed they came off that day. Why does one need Bitcoin? They dont. There are 1300+ other crypto's and growing at a rapid rate. There are no barriers to entry. Theortically, we could all get together and develop our own coin and call it coverscoin. Then artifically ramp it up to a price based on nothing but because we say so and go and buy a house with it because the seller of the house has also bought into our delusion that it is worth the price based "because we say so".  Again, why does one need BITCOIN? The ONLY    How is what you are saying different from gold/precious metals?There was work that had to be done to make a bitcoin, same as work done to mine gold.  Bitcoin is not created out of thin air.

 

Gold and precious metals are COMMODITIES.

For example with Gold, there are numerous demands for gold itself. 

Gold can be used for jewelery, excellent wire for electricity, material for filling cavaties, used for space crafts etc etc.

This is what gives it a demand and hence a price/value. Very simple.

The ONLY possible thing i can see Bitcoin having value is if itself being some sort of status symbol. That is, hey look i own bitcoin. Something that is gives people a status symbol. 

Or as i said earlier if a drug company finds a cure for a disease and the manufacturer ONLY accepts Bitcoin as a form of payment, no other crypto.

Please dont mistake this for bagging bitcoin and other cryptos as a currency. I think it will be awesome as long as there is security, insurance etc etc which i am sure they will work out. But as a form of value, it is sheer utter nonsense.

IMO, i think the big boys know this and are just taking everyone for a ride.

 

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What is the value of Bitcoin based on?

This is so hilarious and in my opinion shows the stupidity of human beings.

The price/value is based on the market? But what are the participants in the market basing it on? There are no underlying fundamentals to base it off. So what are the participants basing it off?

Essentially it is nothing more than participants valuing it based on nothing but "because i say so". Essentially what side of the bed they came off that day.

Why does one need Bitcoin? They dont. There are 1300+ other crypto's and growing at a rapid rate. There are no barriers to entry.

Theortically, we could all get together and develop our own coin and call it coverscoin. Then artifically ramp it up to a price based on nothing but because we say so and go and buy a house with it because the seller of the house has also bought into our delusion that it is worth the price based "because we say so". 

Again, why does one need BITCOIN?

The ONLY 

 

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The overwhelming majority of owners of crypto's have not purchased them to use it. From my understanding, as a currency, at the moment, they are extremely slow and very expensive and not many places accept it.

People own it now for the hope that they will sell at a higher priceto someone else in the future.

Its a Ponzi

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Problem is....you have completely ignored my main argument.

In terms of it being a currency, i have absolutely NO ISSUE with it but NOT in its current form. NO ISSUE AT ALL. It needs tweaks and sure they may come.

My main issue/gripe is with it being used as a STORE OF VALUE.

This is what my arguments are against.