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Author: [Politics] Topic: family of trayvon martin to hold one year rememberance in NYC tonight
canovsp
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#26
Posted: 2/27/2013 1:43:27 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:



Which parts of the discussion was speculation?

Lacerations on the back of his head?

Witness statements that corroborated Zimmermans account?

Lack of evidence on Trayvon's body to show that Zimmerman layed hands on him?

35+ similar phone calls to police under similar circumstances and no single outcome even close to this?



No one speculates more than Matt.

In the College Football Forum he said LSU would go 5-7
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#27
Posted: 2/27/2013 1:52:35 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by canovsp:


No one speculates more than Matt.

In the College Football Forum he said LSU would go 5-7

That was absolute nonsense in those threads. I actually do not in fact believe that LSU will go 5-7.

I try not to speculate in these threads where I am being serious.
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#28
Posted: 2/27/2013 1:53:46 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:

I don't disagree.

The reality is the limitation portion of the so-called "Stand Your Ground" Law is incorporated into nearly every self-defense statute in every state where by the actor must be, to summarize, in reasonable fear, may not participate in actions which are beyond the scope of the danger presented (i.e. cannot shoot someone who is 10 feet away holding a butter knife), and reasonable under the circumstances.

Additionally, most states have language that summarizes the so-called Bernhard Goetz holding in that the actor must be acting reasonably based on the subjective characteristics of the actor. In other words, a 25 year old muscular man will be held to a different standard than an 85 year old woman.

but it doesn't seem like this is always the case...as Hutch always says, just walk away. Ilike the statement in this article that says, some are clearly caused by different interpretations of the law.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/florida-stand-your-ground-law-yields-some-shocking-outcomes-depending-on/1233133

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#29
Posted: 2/27/2013 1:56:10 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by mattbrot:


That was absolute nonsense in those threads. I actually do not in fact believe that LSU will go 5-7.

I try not to speculate in these threads where I am being serious.

I'm just jabbing ya a bit.
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#30
Posted: 2/27/2013 1:56:48 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by canovsp:


I'm just jabbing ya a bit.

I gotcha 
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#31
Posted: 2/27/2013 2:03:22 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by captjohn67:

but it doesn't seem like this is always the case...as Hutch always says, just walk away. Ilike the statement in this article that says, some are clearly caused by different interpretations of the law.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/florida-stand-your-ground-law-yields-some-shocking-outcomes-depending-on/1233133

I completely agree, Capt. The problem is ANY self-defense law will create some terrible outcomes. Anytime you have a situation where others are judging the reasonableness of another person's actions by placing themsleves in their shoes, it is ripe for problems.

The dilemma is that there really is not way to create a self-defense law without having a standard and that standard is always going to be one of reasonableness. The Goetz case was the first time a subjective state of mind was used in making that determination.

And I agree that many SHOULD walk away. But absent being the shoes of the actor, I cannot say that is the safest method.

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#32
Posted: 2/27/2013 2:11:08 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:

One might define ignorance as claiming to have all the answers in a situation in which none of us know exactly what happened.



True, none of us know exactly what happened. That's why we piece together the best we can from what evidence there is.

Did Trayvon's body have any evidence to show Zimmerman assaulted him?

Did Zimmerman have any of the same?

Was there a witness that lived above the scene that was on the phone with 911 and gave statements saying the person in the red jacket was screaming?

Were there several other similar calls under similar circumstances where anything close to this happened?

Is there any evidence that shows that ANY part of Zimmermans account of the incident is false or that he lied about ANYTHING?

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#33
Posted: 2/27/2013 2:26:00 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:

ktrain

You have to be able to show that your life was in danger or at least serious bodily injury.

If you look at this case. The standard should be easily met because there is medical evidence and witness statements to support Zimmermans claim that his head was being pounded into the ground.

Mattbrot, how does this make me the ignorant one as you have suggested?

I'm sorry that you are one of the ones who can't see past the cute teenage boy being killed by a man in his late 20's.

That doesn't always seem to be the case. The loose definition and interpretation of the law allows it to be used even when it doesn't seem applicable.....in some instances. 

That's my issue with the law. Theoretically, someone could get into a fist fight, get shot and killed, and the other guy walks. Or even worse, just balls his hand into a fist etc etc. 

I think if Zimmerman knew how to fight, wasn't such a coward to resort to pulling a gun, carried a taser as oppose to a fire arm, or was willing to just take an behind beating, Martin would still be alive today. 

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#34
Posted: 2/27/2013 2:34:42 PM
Sorry, I meant to add these to my last post. 

http://www.propublica.org/article/five-stand-your-ground-cases-you-should-know-about

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/florida-stand-your-ground-law-yields-some-shocking-outcomes-depending-on/1233133

There are some pretty far fetched interpretations of the law in some of these cases. 


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#35
Posted: 2/27/2013 2:36:36 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by captjohn67:

but it doesn't seem like this is always the case...as Hutch always says, just walk away. Ilike the statement in this article that says, some are clearly caused by different interpretations of the law.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/florida-stand-your-ground-law-yields-some-shocking-outcomes-depending-on/1233133

Ok, a couple of thoughts.

1. It is not always possible to "just walk away" - that isn't realistic advice in all circumstances.

2. Remember, judges are deciding these cases. SYG is ais a bar to prosecution.  he judge weighs the facts. If the judge agrees the defendant has shown stand your ground immunity applies by a preponderance of evidence, the charges are dismissed. The defendant can't be prosecuted.

3. Some of those examples include when prosecutors choose not to even file charges. Which isn't clear how that is a referendum on SYG laws.

 

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#36
Posted: 2/27/2013 2:43:11 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Ktrain:


That doesn't always seem to be the case. The loose definition and interpretation of the law allows it to be used even when it doesn't seem applicable.....in some instances. 

That's my issue with the law. Theoretically, someone could get into a fist fight, get shot and killed, and the other guy walks. Or even worse, just balls his hand into a fist etc etc. 

I think if Zimmerman knew how to fight, wasn't such a coward to resort to pulling a gun, carried a taser as oppose to a fire arm, or was willing to just take an behind beating, Martin would still be alive today. 

but you're asking someone to take an behind beating, thinking that's all it is going to be. How do you not know after the behind beating that he won't slit your throat? We can all look at this however we want, as do the courts it appears. The way i file it away, is don't start fights in stand your ground states....overly simplistic, but...

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#37
Posted: 2/27/2013 2:43:15 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Ktrain:

Sorry, I meant to add these to my last post. 

http://www.propublica.org/article/five-stand-your-ground-cases-you-should-know-about

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/florida-stand-your-ground-law-yields-some-shocking-outcomes-depending-on/1233133

There are some pretty far fetched interpretations of the law in some of these cases. 


This little nugget of the Tampa Times article is revealing:

The Times also included 29 cases where circumstances appeared to reflect the Legislature's intent when it passed the law. For example, if a defendant claiming self-defense could have retreated from a confrontation but chose not to, the case was classified as "stand your ground."

===============

Of course when you take that tactic you are going to find inconsistencies.

 

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#38
Posted: 2/27/2013 3:20:29 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by canovsp:


Guilty until proven innocent?

Do you feel this way 100% of the time or just when the accused is a white Hispanic?

OH NO, not the race card!!!

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#39
Posted: 2/27/2013 3:22:46 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Ktrain:


That doesn't always seem to be the case. The loose definition and interpretation of the law allows it to be used even when it doesn't seem applicable.....in some instances. 

That's my issue with the law. Theoretically, someone could get into a fist fight, get shot and killed, and the other guy walks. Or even worse, just balls his hand into a fist etc etc. 

I think if Zimmerman knew how to fight, wasn't such a coward to resort to pulling a gun, carried a taser as oppose to a fire arm, or was willing to just take an behind beating, Martin would still be alive today. 



Why is he a coward simply by carrying a concealed firearm?

You fail to hold Trayvon to a much different standard.

A. You don't start swinging until you're sure the other guy is going to do the same.

B. If you're winning the fight you scale back and control the situation until help arrives or the other person concedes.

I have yet to see/hear about anything that Zimmerman did to Trayvon physically that would justify Trayvon to repeatedly slam his head into the cement.

Furthermore, Zimmerman was likely very stunned by the punch that broke his nose.

Yet you seem to focus on the weopon that Zimmerman carried and not the clown actions of the dead person.
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#40
Posted: 2/27/2013 6:16:01 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:



Why is he a coward simply by carrying a concealed firearm?

You fail to hold Trayvon to a much different standard.

A. You don't start swinging until you're sure the other guy is going to do the same.

B. If you're winning the fight you scale back and control the situation until help arrives or the other person concedes.

I have yet to see/hear about anything that Zimmerman did to Trayvon physically that would justify Trayvon to repeatedly slam his head into the cement.

Furthermore, Zimmerman was likely very stunned by the punch that broke his nose.

Yet you seem to focus on the weopon that Zimmerman carried and not the clown actions of the dead person.

He isn't a coward for carrying one. He is a coward for using it in the manner he did. I have issues with anyone that anoints themselves the neighborhood watch and isn't properly trained or prepared to take on the responsibilities (i.e. non lethal means of subduing someone, being able to defend themselves physically etc). I also have a hard time with him not staying in the house and letting the cops handle the issue. I have a hard time believing that Martin went out of his way, with out any provocation from Zimm, to start a fight with him. It would have really soured the taste of those skittles and iced tea (Damn that would have been a good halloween costume). 

I'm sure we will never hear anything that Zimmerman may or may have not done to justify Martin beating him....because Martin is dead. 

My problem with this law in general is that it lets to many people of the hook for shootings that should not occur. There are also too many inconsistencies with the law and the cases that come to court regarding it. 

When there are people that are shooting others for essentially showing up on their door step or stepping to them, something is wrong. 

I would just hate to see a country where everyone is running to get guns the second someone comes at them in fashion they deem to be "threatening". It's just too subjective. 
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#41
Posted: 2/27/2013 6:31:15 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Ktrain:


He isn't a coward for carrying one. He is a coward for using it in the manner he did. I have issues with anyone that anoints themselves the neighborhood watch and isn't properly trained or prepared to take on the responsibilities (i.e. non lethal means of subduing someone, being able to defend themselves physically etc). I also have a hard time with him not staying in the house and letting the cops handle the issue. I have a hard time believing that Martin went out of his way, with out any provocation from Zimm, to start a fight with him. It would have really soured the taste of those skittles and iced tea (Damn that would have been a good halloween costume). 

I'm sure we will never hear anything that Zimmerman may or may have not done to justify Martin beating him....because Martin is dead. 

My problem with this law in general is that it lets to many people of the hook for shootings that should not occur. There are also too many inconsistencies with the law and the cases that come to court regarding it. 

When there are people that are shooting others for essentially showing up on their door step or stepping to them, something is wrong. 

I would just hate to see a country where everyone is running to get guns the second someone comes at them in fashion they deem to be "threatening". It's just too subjective. 


Ktrain,

Have you studied much about the case?

He was running an errand in his vehicle and not 'ON DUTY' as the neighborhood watchman that night. He wasn't at home responding to every sound he heard around the area.

Because of the shenanigans that had gone on in the neighborhood for the previous few weeks/months, someone had to step up and try to take a bite out of the crime.

Listening to the police tape, do you really think that he was trying to stir stuff up? Listen to his voice when he says: "Hes comin over to check me out"

He was afraid of any confrontation based on the tone of his voice.

Do you give him credit for the near 40 other phone calls to police and no incidents like this?

Circumstantial evidence points to Trayvon stepping up to Zimmerman. And he has every right to ask why he was being followed. He crossed the line when he sucker punched him and took him to the ground and pounded his head into the ground.

I guarantee you ktrain, if you had an ounce of deductive reasoning you would understand that if Zimmerman had assaulted Trayvon in any way, there would likely be some sort of evidence of that happening. THERE WASN'T!!!!!!!!
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#42
Posted: 2/27/2013 6:49:48 PM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by bowlslit:



Ktrain,

Have you studied much about the case?

He was running an errand in his vehicle and not 'ON DUTY' as the neighborhood watchman that night. He wasn't at home responding to every sound he heard around the area.

Because of the shenanigans that had gone on in the neighborhood for the previous few weeks/months, someone had to step up and try to take a bite out of the crime.

Listening to the police tape, do you really think that he was trying to stir stuff up? Listen to his voice when he says: "Hes comin over to check me out"

He was afraid of any confrontation based on the tone of his voice.

Do you give him credit for the near 40 other phone calls to police and no incidents like this?

Circumstantial evidence points to Trayvon stepping up to Zimmerman. And he has every right to ask why he was being followed. He crossed the line when he sucker punched him and took him to the ground and pounded his head into the ground.

I guarantee you ktrain, if you had an ounce of deductive reasoning you would understand that if Zimmerman had assaulted Trayvon in any way, there would likely be some sort of evidence of that happening. THERE WASN'T!!!!!!!!

If Z would have done what he was told there never would have been a confrontation. End of story.

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#43
Posted: 2/27/2013 7:38:44 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:



Ktrain,

Have you studied much about the case?

He was running an errand in his vehicle and not 'ON DUTY' as the neighborhood watchman that night. He wasn't at home responding to every sound he heard around the area.

Because of the shenanigans that had gone on in the neighborhood for the previous few weeks/months, someone had to step up and try to take a bite out of the crime.

Listening to the police tape, do you really think that he was trying to stir stuff up? Listen to his voice when he says: "Hes comin over to check me out"

He was afraid of any confrontation based on the tone of his voice.

Do you give him credit for the near 40 other phone calls to police and no incidents like this?

Circumstantial evidence points to Trayvon stepping up to Zimmerman. And he has every right to ask why he was being followed. He crossed the line when he sucker punched him and took him to the ground and pounded his head into the ground.

I guarantee you ktrain, if you had an ounce of deductive reasoning you would understand that if Zimmerman had assaulted Trayvon in any way, there would likely be some sort of evidence of that happening. THERE WASN'T!!!!!!!!

"Someone had to step up and take a bite out of crime." 

So he seems to have anointed himself as that person. Most people would probably avoid confrontation and stay in their homes, lock the door and call police or if they're in their car they drive away. Was Martin found shot in Zimm's house? Did he make an attempt to get away? 

"Do you give him credit for the near 40 other phone calls to police and no incidents like this?"

If you have to call the cops 40 times, you have problems. Problems with the neighborhood you live in. Problems with your own sense of security. Problems with social skills. Either way it's time to move if you have to call the cops 40 times....unless you have anointed yourself neighborhood watch. Then I guess calling the cops 40 times might seem plausible. 

I admit I haven't studied up on this case to the extent that you have. It doesn't take much common sense to realize certain things though. If you call the cops 40 times, it's either time to move or you are actively seeking a confrontation. 

I agree with Darkhorse, if he had just done what he was told this never happens. If Zimm lets the cops handle this, it never happens. 







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#44
Posted: 2/27/2013 7:44:20 PM
And getting back to my original point about the SYG law: look at all the cases in the Tampa news paper article. 

While I'm sure there are plenty of legit cases of SYG that have gone done in Florida and other states, it seems the confusion in the interpretation is letting people off that should be convicted of crimes. 

It seems as if the judges can't agree on what should constitute SYG. 

This law goes further than just the Martin/Zimmerman case. 

I just know that I would hate to lose a family member or friend because of something like a bar fight going bad. However, it would be even worse if the person that killed them got to walk because of this law. 



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#45
Posted: 2/27/2013 7:53:49 PM
And getting back to my original point about the SYG law: look at all the cases in the Tampa news paper article. 

While I'm sure there are plenty of legit cases of SYG that have gone done in Florida and other states, it seems the confusion in the interpretation is letting people off that should be convicted of crimes. 

It seems as if the judges can't agree on what should constitute SYG. 

This law goes further than just the Martin/Zimmerman case. 

I just know that I would hate to lose a family member or friend because of something like a bar fight going bad. However, it would be even worse if the person that killed them got to walk because of this law. 



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#46
Posted: 2/27/2013 8:00:44 PM
You and darkhorse are horrible at reading clues.

You ignored what I said about his tone of voice on the police call. His tone of voice was not the voice of some vigilante that was bent on going out of his way to get justice for what had been going on.

Who cares about what he should have done? Most issues happen because someone did something they shouldn't have. You can't put full blame on Zimmerman just because he chose door number 1. Trayvon had the option to simply find out exactly why Zimmerman was following him before he started swinging. Putting full blame on Zimmerman simply because he didn't head the words of a dispatcher is simply ignorance at its finest.

You would think that if he was a racist son of a girl that he would have screwed up on at least one of the other 40 or so calls to police. Or even if he was hell bent on getting even with the burglars.

If he moved from the neighborhood because of the crime then you could surely call him a coward. Clint Eastwood wouldn't have moved. Did you ever see the movie Grand Torino?

Just because you stay to help battle the criminals doesn't make you a vigilante. Especially with his tone of voice when he thinks there is going to be a confrontation.
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#47
Posted: 2/27/2013 8:10:40 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by darkhorse12:

If Z would have done what he was told there never would have been a confrontation. End of story.



Ignorance!

Is that all the justification you need to for Trayvon to sucker punch Zimmerman?

What if Zimmerman had only intended to locate Trayvon till the cops got there?

Why would Zimmerman be stupid enough to start  fist to cuffs if he knew the cops could be there ANY MOMENT?

Darkhorse please convince me you're a better detective than what you've portrayed.
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#48
Posted: 2/27/2013 8:12:15 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:

You and darkhorse are horrible at reading clues.


You ignored what I said about his tone of voice on the police call. His tone of voice was not the voice of some vigilante that was bent on going out of his way to get justice for what had been going on.

Who cares about what he should have done? Most issues happen because someone did something they shouldn't have. You can't put full blame on Zimmerman just because he chose door number 1. Trayvon had the option to simply find out exactly why Zimmerman was following him before he started swinging. Putting full blame on Zimmerman simply because he didn't head the words of a dispatcher is simply ignorance at its finest.

You would think that if he was a racist son of a girl that he would have screwed up on at least one of the other 40 or so calls to police. Or even if he was hell bent on getting even with the burglars.

If he moved from the neighborhood because of the crime then you could surely call him a coward. Clint Eastwood wouldn't have moved. Did you ever see the movie Grand Torino?

Just because you stay to help battle the criminals doesn't make you a vigilante. Especially with his tone of voice when he thinks there is going to be a confrontation.

Bowl, 

I just read the 911 transcript. You mean to tell me that Zimm was so scared of Martin, that he decided to FOLLOW him while police were on their way? 

Are you serious Bowl? If someone wants to fight you and you don't want to fight, you don't keep following that person. 

As for Gran Torino........

I'm on record as saying Martin is no saint in life, or this matter. He could have chose not to fight as well. However, he didn't follow someone while armed with a gun after police dispatch told him not to. I do believe that Zimm could have made several choices that would have avoided this situation and that the majority of the blame is on him. 

What do you think about that article that was linked on this thread? What about some of the other SYG cases? 


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#49
Posted: 2/27/2013 8:54:27 PM

Doesn't take a detective to see that Z was in the wrong.He became the aggressor the second he ignored what he was told and followed M.

If he didn't want to confront M why did he follow him?

If I stop at a stop sign 39 out of 40 times and the one time I don't stop and kill or injure someone do I get credit for the 39 times I did?

Z was a hot head and a wannabe do you actually believe he didn't say something  when he was confronted by M?

 

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#50
Posted: 2/27/2013 8:54:49 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:



Ignorance!

Is that all the justification you need to for Trayvon to sucker punch Zimmerman?

What if Zimmerman had only intended to locate Trayvon till the cops got there?

Why would Zimmerman be stupid enough to start  fist to cuffs if he knew the cops could be there ANY MOMENT?

Darkhorse please convince me you're a better detective than what you've portrayed.

this is the classic speculation that I referred to in an earlier post.

you already have your mind made up which makes discussion difficult
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