| Author: |
[Politics] Topic: How does Romney's Bain Experience Stack up? |
|
14daroad |
 View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook | |
Captain
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 7200
Location: Virginia |
#26 Posted: 5/24/2012 10:48:50 AM QUOTE Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:
Part right..
Wealth the way Bain accumulates it I do not consider a positive for the economy, I consider it a positive for Bain and their select top execs, and a disaster for many of those in their path to profits.
No need to make insults, keep at it and you can make them from the box.
Note you can provide no actual examples of this.
And, saying "research it" isn't an answer. However, I've found a Democrat with some answers:
Private equity firms often invest in distressed companies by putting in cash and cutting expenses in order to save a company that is already close to bankruptcy. Sometimes the investment works and the company and jobs are saved. And sometimes, to save the company, jobs need to be cut or wages and benefits reduced.
Does that sound familiar? It should. It’s called the General Motors bailout, widely touted by President Obama and Democrats as a success story
|
|
quote |
|
AustinHoopDream |
View Space | Friends | Playbook | |
Banned
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 8408
Location: Illinois |
#27 Posted: 5/24/2012 11:31:01 AM 14 i dont think you understand what wsc is telling you.
private equity describes the source of capital, and in the early days it was almost 100% bain partner $$$, it does not describe the methodology in which the private equity firm deploys its capital.
wsc takes offense to the LBO heavy investment pattern of Bain capital while Romney was its head. in essence it is a highly leveraged bet in which the company's existence is put at risk and a small amount of bain capital is put at risk. when it works out, bain made out like a thief in the night, when it didnt bain let the company burn to the ground and walked away.
when it worked rich guys got richer and when it didnt entire communities were destroyed...
i think wsc's point is that there are better ways to deploy private equity capital...
i look forward to your italicized text, blue fonts and dashed lines....
|
|
quote |
|
wallstreetcappers |
View Space | Friends | Playbook | |
Covers Linesmen
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 47636
Location: United States |
#28 Posted: 5/24/2012 12:34:07 PM
Had he researched the company for even 5 minutes he would find that information out.
14 isnt looking to debate the content, he wants to take a party stand and debate the person.
Post 26 is the perfect example, has nothing to do with the point and is full of tangents and deflection.
|
|
quote |
|
14daroad |
View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook | |
Captain
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 7200
Location: Virginia |
#29 Posted: 5/24/2012 12:44:17 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers: AHD,
Post 26 is the perfect example, has nothing to do with the point and is full of tangents and deflection.
Oh really?
And you can demonstrate that post has nothing to do with the "Point" How ____?
|
|
quote |
|
14daroad |
View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook | |
Captain
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 7200
Location: Virginia |
#30 Posted: 5/24/2012 12:44:52 PM
when it worked rich guys got richer and when it didnt entire communities were destroyed...
=============================
Not one single part of this is true.
|
|
quote |
|
|
|
14daroad |
View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook | |
Captain
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 7200
Location: Virginia |
#31 Posted: 5/24/2012 12:45:20 PM
Had he researched the company for even 5 minutes he would find that information out.
======================
That post, in its entirety, was a lie.
|
|
quote |
|
lordspoint |
RSI  |
All-Star
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 12223
Location: Connecticut |
#32 Posted: 5/24/2012 12:46:59 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by AustinHoopDream:
14 i dont think you understand what wsc is telling you.
private equity describes the source of capital, and in the early days it was almost 100% bain partner $$$, it does not describe the methodology in which the private equity firm deploys its capital.
wsc takes offense to the LBO heavy investment pattern of Bain capital while Romney was its head. in essence it is a highly leveraged bet in which the company's existence is put at risk and a small amount of bain capital is put at risk. when it works out, bain made out like a thief in the night, when it didnt bain let the company burn to the ground and walked away.
when it worked rich guys got richer and when it didnt entire communities were destroyed...
i think wsc's point is that there are better ways to deploy private equity capital...
i look forward to your italicized text, blue fonts and dashed lines....
what happens to a company and the community when no one comes into rescue it from collapse?
Its easy for all of us to reference success and failures of VC's but gets us nowhere.
While the point can be made that some firms have pillaged companies, it can also be touted that they have saved many companies as well. Its not a perfect world and we live amongst the grey and have to avoid coloring the world as if it is only black and white
|
|
quote |
|
wallstreetcappers |
View Space | Friends | Playbook | |
Covers Linesmen
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 47636
Location: United States |
#33 Posted: 5/24/2012 12:52:10 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by 14daroad: AHD,
Had he researched the company for even 5 minutes he would find that information out.
======================
That post, in its entirety, was a lie.
How so, interesting the one line insult and run.
If you had spent 5 minutes researching Bain and their business strategy you would know all of the comments made here.
The comments made are not opinions, they are fact. Now I expect that you will return with a one liner about how that is a lie or some other deflective bullsh!t.
Their strategy as a business is to use heavy leverage to take over a company, exploit the balance sheet, pay out dividends to the owners of Bain, find ways to cut costs and suck out equity, then return to the markets and move on.
This style of leverage takeover is not new, it is done by many firms and is public knowledge if you were actually interested in finding out.
You arent..so why waste our time? |
|
quote |
|
wallstreetcappers |
View Space | Friends | Playbook | |
Covers Linesmen
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 47636
Location: United States |
#34 Posted: 5/24/2012 12:54:16 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by lordspoint:
what happens to a company and the community when no one comes into rescue it from collapse?
Its easy for all of us to reference success and failures of VC's but gets us nowhere.
While the point can be made that some firms have pillaged companies, it can also be touted that they have saved many companies as well. Its not a perfect world and we live amongst the grey and have to avoid coloring the world as if it is only black and white
Do you really think Bain is in the business of rescuing companies on the verge of collapse?
They use leverage to buy out companies..they do not seek out companies on the verge and try to save them as a general strategy.
Now if a company has slowing business and is struggling but Bain sees an over funded pension and PPE that can be split up, then maybe they might be interested.
|
|
quote |
|
lordspoint |
RSI |
All-Star
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 12223
Location: Connecticut |
#35 Posted: 5/24/2012 1:02:43 PM wall my point was in regards to AHD's hearftelt comments about the community in post #27 (that's why I quoted him) 
You see VC's as all bad with no merit.
You telling me you can't cite one success story??
Seriously?
I have an idea - why dont you give me $25K to bet on baseball this year and I will get back to you at the end of the season to let you know how I invested your money.....(hint.....I am going to bet big on heavy favorites).
Would you like that idea?
Or would you rather I take some road dogs and actually try and return a profit to you?
I mean unless you dont care about your investment,,,,,,we can repeat this for NFL too!
Shouldnt all investors just invest and not care about getting any of their investment back?
|
|
quote |
|
AustinHoopDream |
View Space | Friends | Playbook | |
Banned
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 8408
Location: Illinois |
#36 Posted: 5/24/2012 1:14:32 PM
you make some valid points and i am not painting the entire industry vc as evil, because clearly it is not. i just do not like leveraged buyouts. the vc shields itself from the bulk of the risk yet makes off with the bulk of the upside. some of that value creation should return to those most responsible for its creation.
|
|
quote |
|
wallstreetcappers |
View Space | Friends | Playbook | |
Covers Linesmen
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 47636
Location: United States |
#37 Posted: 5/24/2012 1:18:11 PM
here is the problem..
Bain does not bet on dogs, they borrow your money at high leverage rates when they have analyzed the business and see the potential at a minimum to escape with their capital intact, the debt/leverage used would not really effect Bain because they have so little skin in the game.
Bain can and does let businesses go under because to them it is a capital capture event with the net effect mattering more than any one specific business.
Bain goes in and strips away any easy cash, spins that off in a dividend to partners/investors and tries to slap lipstick on the company to ship it off to the markets. They are not in the business of job creation and long term interests of the company and the employee.
They are a financial MINER of assets/liquidity..they go in, take the easy money, work on short term reduction of jobs or bundling of assets to maximize leverage and move on.
I dont see all VC's as bad with no merit, but I know what they are trying to do and their goal.
Romney is an insider who knows how to take advantage of scenarios that give Bain an edge and often times that edge comes at the expense of the company and the employee.
VC's are sharks period..go watch the show Shark Tank, those guys are VC's with that same mentality.. |
|
quote |
|
14daroad |
View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook | |
Captain
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 7200
Location: Virginia |
#38 Posted: 5/24/2012 1:19:19 PM If you had spent 5 minutes researching Bain and their business strategy you would know all of the comments made here
==========================
Notice you can't provide examples.
Shouting 'research it' isn't an answer. |
|
quote |
|
14daroad |
View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook | |
Captain
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 7200
Location: Virginia |
#39 Posted: 5/24/2012 1:21:50 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:
The comments made are not opinions, they are fact. Now I expect that you will return with a one liner about how that is a lie or some other deflective bullsh!t.
No, they are not fact.
They are silly, over the top assertions.
You can provide no examples, documents, memo's, anything demonstrating what is being alleged is what Bain does as a business practice.
Which is why you're left exclaiming "research it" over & over.
|
|
quote |
|
14daroad |
View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook | |
Captain
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 7200
Location: Virginia |
#40 Posted: 5/24/2012 1:23:59 PM Bain goes in and strips away any easy cash, spins that off in a dividend to partners/investors and tries to slap lipstick on the company to ship it off to the markets. They are not in the business of job creation and long term interests of the company and the employee.
================================
Is that why Bain invested $100 million in the plant modernizaton of GS Technologies? |
|
quote |
|
wallstreetcappers |
View Space | Friends | Playbook | |
Covers Linesmen
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 47636
Location: United States |
#41 Posted: 5/24/2012 1:42:04 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by 14daroad: Bain goes in and strips away any easy cash, spins that off in a dividend to partners/investors and tries to slap lipstick on the company to ship it off to the markets. They are not in the business of job creation and long term interests of the company and the employee.
================================
Is that why Bain invested $100 million in the plant modernizaton of GS Technologies?
How much did THEY invest? Obtaining financing is not investing.
You cannot mean THIS GS Technologies can you?
I can only suggest where to find information for yourself because posting things here just gives you an opportunity to make a personal insult or slap the source as left or right ignoring what the actual content is.
|
|
quote |
|
wallstreetcappers |
View Space | Friends | Playbook | |
Covers Linesmen
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 47636
Location: United States |
#42 Posted: 5/24/2012 1:45:23 PM Former company executives say they were generally satisfied with Bain's leadership, but they say the firm would have been better equipped to weather tough times had it not been saddled with such a heavy debt load. They also fault Bain for putting inexperienced managers in place and spurning a buyout offer from a competitor. Workers say efforts to cut corners often backfired, driving costs higher. The Kansas City millworkers, meanwhile, are still fuming, after being left with no health benefits and a reduced pension check. "Romney cost me lots and lots of sleepless nights and lots and lots of money," said Ed Stanger, who worked at the plant for nearly 30 years. |
|
quote |
|
14daroad |
View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook | |
Captain
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 7200
Location: Virginia |
#43 Posted: 5/24/2012 1:46:42 PM of Bain's investments in largely failing companies, only 5% went bankrupt.
Vultures! |
|
quote |
|
14daroad |
View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook | |
Captain
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 7200
Location: Virginia |
#44 Posted: 5/24/2012 1:47:57 PM You cannot mean THIS GS Technologies can you?
==================
Um, yes.
So since there was a $100 million dollar investment in plant modernization, how does that square with your assertion? |
|
quote |
|
14daroad |
View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook | |
Captain
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 7200
Location: Virginia |
#45 Posted: 5/24/2012 1:49:07 PM I can only suggest where to find information for yourself because posting things here just gives you an opportunity to make a personal insult or slap the source as left or right ignoring what the actual content is.
===========================
Except I'm not "ignoring any content" anywhere at all.
So again.
You:
Bain goes in and strips away any easy cash, spins that off in a dividend to partners/investors and tries to slap lipstick on the company to ship it off to the markets. They are not in the business of job creation and long term interests of the company and the employee.
================================
Is that why Bain invested $100 million in the plant modernizaton of GS Technologies?
|
|
quote |
|
wallstreetcappers |
View Space | Friends | Playbook | |
Covers Linesmen
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 47636
Location: United States |
#46 Posted: 5/24/2012 1:51:14 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by 14daroad: I can only suggest where to find information for yourself because posting things here just gives you an opportunity to make a personal insult or slap the source as left or right ignoring what the actual content is.
===========================
Except I'm not "ignoring any content" anywhere at all.
So again.
You:
Bain goes in and strips away any easy cash, spins that off in a dividend to partners/investors and tries to slap lipstick on the company to ship it off to the markets. They are not in the business of job creation and long term interests of the company and the employee.
================================
Is that why Bain invested $100 million in the plant modernizaton of GS Technologies?
Read the link above. Bain did not invest 100M in plant modernization.
Bain was equity owners of the company who saddled the company with this debt and it is what caused the company to fail.
Bain invested how much into this failed business? Its right there in that left-rag article Reuters.
|
|
quote |
|
14daroad |
View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook | |
Captain
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 7200
Location: Virginia |
#47 Posted: 5/24/2012 1:53:09 PM Bain was equity owners of the company who saddled the company with this debt and it is what caused the company to fail.
Allegations by the union now = fact!!!
Note:
Some analysts say Bain should not be blamed for the company's failure, noting that a wave of cheap imports forced nearly half of the U.S. steel industry into bankruptcy during that period. Another company set up around the same time, in which Bain took a minority stake, Steel Dynamics in Fort Wayne, Indiana, thrived. |
|
quote |
|
wallstreetcappers |
View Space | Friends | Playbook | |
Covers Linesmen
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 47636
Location: United States |
#48 Posted: 5/24/2012 1:54:18 PM Nevertheless, Bain and its partners decided to buy the mill for $75 million. Bain put up about $8 million to gain majority control of the company, renamed GS Technologies Inc.
THE BIG DIVIDEND
Bain got its money back quickly. The new company issued $125 million in bonds and paid Bain a $36.1 million dividend in 1994. |
|
quote |
|
wallstreetcappers |
View Space | Friends | Playbook | |
Covers Linesmen
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 47636
Location: United States |
#49 Posted: 5/24/2012 1:55:18 PM
|
|
quote |
|
wallstreetcappers |
View Space | Friends | Playbook | |
Covers Linesmen
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 47636
Location: United States |
#50 Posted: 5/24/2012 1:58:50 PM So how much of that 100M did Bain put in of their own firm capital?
In 1995 Bain merged GS with another wire rod maker in Georgetown, South Carolina, to form one of the largest mini-mill steel producers in the U.S.
The new company issued another $125 million in bonds to pay for the merger. Bain doubled down, reinvesting $16.5 million of its earlier dividend.
Reinvesting money they took from the company via a divi is not firm capital.
|
|
quote |