Battleground America - One nation, under the gun

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Author: [Politics] Topic: Battleground America - One nation, under the gun
DiscoD69 PM DiscoD69
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Posted: 4/24/2012 11:08:30 AM
With all of the talk about the second amendment recently, I would like to present this article outlining some of the issues.





This is likely a much needed history lesson for those who have forgot, and for those who never knew. Hopefully this addresses some of the misinformation people believe.

Note the former Chief Justice saying: 

...the new interpretation of the Second Amendment was “one of the greatest pieces of fraud, I repeat the word ‘fraud,’ on the American public by special-interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime.”

Yes, he just used the word 'fraud.' 
14daroad PM 14daroad
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Posted: 4/24/2012 12:34:21 PM

17 year olds can't buy guns in America.

That silly example had nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment. Further, the US murder (and crime) rate is at a 50 year low.  

Epic fail.

14daroad PM 14daroad
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Posted: 4/24/2012 12:38:23 PM

Yes, he just used the word 'fraud

And? Chief Justice Warren Burger was a leftist loon.

The greatest fraud, I repeat the word ‘fraud,’ on the American public is being perpetrated by our judiciary in their use of the preamble.

MoneySRH PM MoneySRH
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Posted: 4/24/2012 12:40:41 PM
Very sad to read. After reading that I'm torn about the issue. I want to keep people safe and I want rights.The government sees us preach for more gun laws for safety reasons and grants the wish.

Then strips all rights away and we chose to give our rights to posses guns away. Then government can laugh because we saved lives to sacrifice our ability to fight back.

I want to save lives but when you take rights away you give government all the power. We wake up and see a gun free America and look around and see were not citizens anymore.

We become inmates and the government says well you asked for safety. Then you say well I want to fight back for my rights. The government says well you sacrificed your rights for the greater good and you asked for protection.

I want to protest and the government says why should I listen to you. You can't fight back. Now go back to your government job I gave you and be the good inmate you are.

History says you give government power they abuse it. I don't trust government or politicians to not abuse power. How can Americans be sure that when the government gets all of our guns. That sometime down the line they won't attack us if we don't obey?
MoneySRH PM MoneySRH
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Posted: 4/24/2012 12:47:15 PM
Remember disco I want to stop innocent lives for being taken. All of those mass shootings have to be stopped somehow. I just can't think of away to stop it.
djbrow PM djbrow
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Posted: 4/24/2012 1:25:47 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by 14daroad:

 

And? Chief Justice Warren Burger was a leftist loon.

 

Huh?

Burger was appointed by Nixon, almost exclusively supported Republicans including delivering an introductory speech for Eisenhower.

He may have had some centrist and left leaning views over the years, but he certainly wasn't a leftist loon.

D_Unit PM D_Unit
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Posted: 4/24/2012 1:35:45 PM
The city of chicago who has a no gun policy is the most crime ridden city in America. When you take away the citizens rights to bear arms, the savages see it as a green light. Wake the F up america. We would be all under British control if these lawmakers were in-tact before the  American revolution. Stupid friggin spineless libs destroying our freedoms.
14daroad PM 14daroad
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Posted: 4/24/2012 1:58:09 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:

Huh?

Burger was appointed by Nixon, almost exclusively supported Republicans including delivering an introductory speech for Eisenhower.

He may have had some centrist and left leaning views over the years, but he certainly wasn't a leftist loon.

Well that's in the eye of the beholder.

Supported forced busing (an awful policy)

Supported Roe v. Wade (one of the worst judicial decisions in history)

Supported the use of racial quotas in the awarding of federal grants and contracts.

And obviously was an anti-gun jurist.


 

djbrow PM djbrow
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Posted: 4/24/2012 2:11:29 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by 14daroad:

Well that's in the eye of the beholder.

Supported forced busing (an awful policy)

Supported Roe v. Wade (one of the worst judicial decisions in history)

Supported the use of racial quotas in the awarding of federal grants and contracts.

And obviously was an anti-gun jurist.


 

The Brethren is an amazingly well written account of the inside view of the Burger Court and charts the movement from the Warren to the Rhenquist Court.

The forced busing case you speak of, Swann v. Charlotte was supported by all 8 justices. Burger was a huge proponent of the death penalty, dissenting in Furman and reinstating the DP in Gregg. His support for Roe was later measured by his opinion in Thornburough.

I have never seen a respected legal scholar refer to Burger as left wing. By today's Republican standard he may be considered a moderate in the Snowe or Collins genre.

AcerRubrum PM AcerRubrum
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Posted: 4/24/2012 2:12:17 PM
I see nothing wrong with Roe vs Wade.....those anti on the far right are the reason the GOP stays in the previous century :-(  ....  the GOP needs to get over the social garbage they are sooooo hypocritically against......

women's rights and gays ....they cost themselves seats every election.....

if I was a woman I could not vote for the GOP with their stance on the rights of a woman .....  and I couldn't vote GOP if I were happy either.....

and that is sad that they cannot evolve just a little on social issues

:-(


 
djbrow PM djbrow
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Posted: 4/24/2012 2:14:15 PM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by AcerRubrum:

I see nothing wrong with Roe vs Wade.....those anti on the far right are the reason the GOP stays in the previous century :-(  ....  the GOP needs to get over the social garbage they are sooooo hypocritically against......

women's rights and gays ....they cost themselves seats every election.....

if I was a woman I could not vote for the GOP with their stance on the rights of a woman .....  and I couldn't vote GOP if I were happy either.....

and that is sad that they cannot evolve just a little on social issues

:-(


 

That reminds me, Burger was also completely against happy rights, voting with the court to keep sodomy between consenting adults illegal in Bowers.

14daroad PM 14daroad
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Posted: 4/24/2012 2:44:11 PM

I have never seen a respected legal scholar refer to Burger as left wing. By today's Republican standard he may be considered a moderate in the Snowe or Collins genre.

=============

Well, I don't think Snowe or Collins are "moderate" at all.

They're pro big government at every turn.

bowlslit PM bowlslit
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Posted: 4/24/2012 3:01:21 PM

Disco,

I know you don't like to respond to me. But, what makes you think that more gun laws will prevent someone that wants to kill people from killing people?

You think that simply making it harder will reform the killer into a non killer. What is the logic behind that?

 

djbrow PM djbrow
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Posted: 4/24/2012 3:01:50 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by 14daroad:

I have never seen a respected legal scholar refer to Burger as left wing. By today's Republican standard he may be considered a moderate in the Snowe or Collins genre.

=============

Well, I don't think Snowe or Collins are "moderate" at all.

They're pro big government at every turn.

Pro big government is a difficult term to pinpoint in certain areas. For example, is an expansion of government's power under a search warrant, big government? Laws restricting homosexuality, abortion rights, etc.?

Sometimes the lines get blurred.

DiscoD69 PM DiscoD69
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Posted: 4/24/2012 3:06:27 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by MoneySRH:

Very sad to read. After reading that I'm torn about the issue. I want to keep people safe and I want rights.The government sees us preach for more gun laws for safety reasons and grants the wish.

Then strips all rights away and we chose to give our rights to posses guns away. Then government can laugh because we saved lives to sacrifice our ability to fight back.

I want to save lives but when you take rights away you give government all the power. We wake up and see a gun free America and look around and see were not citizens anymore.

We become inmates and the government says well you asked for safety. Then you say well I want to fight back for my rights. The government says well you sacrificed your rights for the greater good and you asked for protection.

I want to protest and the government says why should I listen to you. You can't fight back. Now go back to your government job I gave you and be the good inmate you are.

History says you give government power they abuse it. I don't trust government or politicians to not abuse power. How can Americans be sure that when the government gets all of our guns. That sometime down the line they won't attack us if we don't obey?

Excellent article isn't it? It really makes you step back and this about how complex this issue really is, which is reflected in your post.

I agree there are no easy solutions, especially because of the pro-gun culture that has been engrained in current psyche of Americans and the very fabric of US society. Even discussing the issue causes some people to go ape garbage. Hence the problem... that won't let you address the problem.

DiscoD69 PM DiscoD69
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Posted: 4/24/2012 3:14:10 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:

Disco,

I know you don't like to respond to me. But, what makes you think that more gun laws will prevent someone that wants to kill people from killing people? 


Gun laws have no effect on the decision to kill a person or not, except for the very important fact that lax gun laws make it much easier for a person to commit such a horrible crime. 
bowlslit PM bowlslit
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Posted: 4/24/2012 3:16:46 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:


Excellent article isn't it? It really makes you step back and this about how complex this issue really is, which is reflected in your post.

I agree there are no easy solutions, especially because of the pro-gun culture that has been engrained in current psyche of Americans and the very fabric of US society. Even discussing the issue causes some people to go ape garbage. Hence the problem... that won't let you address the problem.

The solution is easy. Implementing the solution is rather difficult.

I raise my kids to live the golden rule. Many other parents do the same.

Many parents don't give a darn. Many parents don't know how to be parents and yet more don't bother to give a half assed effort.

If parenting was solid in any country...it wouldnt matter if bazookas were legal and on every corner.

DiscoD69 PM DiscoD69
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Posted: 4/24/2012 3:27:23 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:


Excellent article isn't it? It really makes you step back and think* about how complex this issue really is, which is reflected in your post.

I agree there are no easy solutions, especially because of the pro-gun culture that has been engrained in current psyche of Americans and the very fabric of US society. Even discussing the issue causes some people to go ape garbage. Hence the problem... that won't let you address the problem.


Typo 
14daroad PM 14daroad
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Posted: 4/24/2012 3:31:48 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:

Pro big government is a difficult term to pinpoint in certain areas. For example, is an expansion of government's power under a search warrant, big government? Laws restricting homosexuality, abortion rights, etc.?

Sometimes the lines get blurred.

I view any expansion of government power as "big government"

However, the state has a vested interest in preventing crimes and attacks against the defenseless so abortion is a different matter.

 

14daroad PM 14daroad
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Posted: 4/24/2012 3:33:11 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:


Gun laws have no effect on the decision to kill a person or not, except for the very important fact that lax gun laws make it much easier for a person to commit such a horrible crime. 

Well the United States doesn't have "lax gun laws" and in fact homicide is falling as a cause of death in America despite the highest rate of gun ownership ever recorded.

 

DiscoD69 PM DiscoD69
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Posted: 4/24/2012 3:44:45 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:

The solution is easy. Implementing the solution is rather difficult.

I raise my kids to live the golden rule. Many other parents do the same.

Many parents don't give a darn. Many parents don't know how to be parents and yet more don't bother to give a half assed effort.

If parenting was solid in any country...it wouldnt matter if bazookas were legal and on every corner.



It's almost like you have no concept of reality. There is the real world, and then there is the right wing fairytale conservatives like to think the world should be

...Like, if everybody drove the speed limit there would be no traffic jams. Or if everybody stayed safe and healthy we wouldn't need hospitals. Or if I garbage gold bricks, I would never have to work again in my life. 
OakleyDoak PM OakleyDoak
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Posted: 4/24/2012 3:52:39 PM

The question that bothers me the most is  :  What is wrong with the human psyche - temperament of emotional state - that causes people to effect such atrocities ??

Of any age !

Where and when are we failing each other in such a way that people become so loathe of life whether it's theirs or others,that they believe their actions to be justified and gratifying ??

Maybe we need to be evaluated by psychologists once per year beginning in elementary school (when we start to interact with large groups of people).

bowlslit PM bowlslit
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Posted: 4/24/2012 3:55:06 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:



It's almost like you have no concept of reality. There is the real world, and then there is the right wing fairytale conservatives like to think the world should be

...Like, if everybody drove the speed limit there would be no traffic jams. Or if everybody stayed safe and healthy we wouldn't need hospitals. Or if I garbage gold bricks, I would never have to work again in my life. 

Oh the hypocracy.

You mean like "If gun laws were tougher, people would not kill others"?

DiscoD69 PM DiscoD69
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Posted: 4/24/2012 4:38:15 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:


Gun laws have no effect on the decision to kill a person or not, except for the very important fact that lax gun laws make it much easier for a person to commit such a horrible crime. 

Bow re: post 23

I've already, in this thread, stated the exact opposite of the words you just tried to put in my mouth.

Leave the "Oh the hypocrisy" nonsense out of the discussion if you want me to take you seriously. 
bowlslit PM bowlslit
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Posted: 4/24/2012 4:44:51 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:


Bow re: post 23

I've already, in this thread, stated the exact opposite of the words you just tried to put in my mouth.

Leave the "Oh the hypocrisy" nonsense out of the discussion if you want me to take you seriously. 

But that just shows that you ignore the real world. If someone wants to shoot someone they will find a way to get a gun and do it. Or, they will jump in their car and run them over. Or, they will bludgeon them with a baseball bat.

Get the picture?

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