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Author: [Politics] Topic: If you don't like it here, why don't you just leave?
dl36 send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook | My Sportsbook: BetJamaica.com |
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#26
Posted: 4/18/2012 1:11:10 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by be easy:

Because you're not allowed to do that, either,,,,,

link

A bill that nobody is paying any attention to is sailing through Congress: Senate Bill 1813. It passed the Senate by 74 to 22, and is expected to sail through the House as well. It’s an act “[t]o reauthorize Federal-aid highway and highway safety construction programs, and for other purposes.”

It’s the “and for other purposes” part of the title that has me worried—specifically Section 40304: “Revocation or denial of passport in case of certain unpaid taxes.

This section would give the IRS the power to keep a U.S. citizen from traveling—

—and it’s another example of Executive Power run amok. It’s another example of how the United States is turning into a police-state.

The right to travel freely is sacrosanct—it’s not some privilege that the government bestows on us: It’s one of our basic freedoms as citizens. In point of fact, the countries that have limited their citizens’ ability to travel—the Soviet Union, the People’s Republic of China, North Korea, Cuba—were all rightfully called “police-states”: It’s one of their defining characteristics—the fact that they were keeping their citizens hostage.


Welcome to the fascist states of the americas, one big open air prison, run by the police state. You are free, to operate within their strictly defined, and impossible to adhere to, set of rules. Freedom,,,,it's just another word 


Why is congress and the senate so set on pushing this one through?

I dont get it with the legislative branch?

Wasn't the whole tea party movement about getting rid of the senators and congressmen that passed through the "patriot" act?

Wasn't this new batch of senators and congressmen supposed to protect and increase freedoms and rights?

And from what I saw this was not just about partisan lines as the teaparty movement took out republican incumbents who during the bush administration did not question the executive branch to create the checks and balances that our founding fathers based our system of government on?

Why is this new batch of "tea party" senators and congressmen who have taken over the legislative branch doing this?

Isn't this completely opposite to what they pretended to represent... or are they just as bad as the incumbents (regardless of partisan affiliation) that they sought to unseat?

Or were they simply politicians all along that talk about change and simply followed in the footsteps of their predecessors... except now we have a legislative branch that is basically the same thing except less experienced...

What a joke

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#27
Posted: 4/18/2012 1:16:56 AM
Or were they simply politicians all along

that's probably your best bet. did you check to see who voted how?

74-22, was the tally

As usual, this is just a rider thrown in on a bill to reauthorize Federal-aid highway and highway safety construction programs, and for other purposes.

I guess Obamas campaign signs, THIS PAID BY COMMUNIST REINVESTMENT ACT, TIGER or whatever all those bullshit signs you see everywhere say, are too old to matter for this election. The ones where some state union DOT guys bring out 10x the man power and 5x the heavy equipment, just to do some touch up paint on some bolts on the side of a bridge somewhere

i posted an article way back then that showed the cost of the signs alone

I
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#28
Posted: 4/18/2012 1:28:13 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by be easy:

Or were they simply politicians all along

that's probably your best bet. did you check to see who voted how?

74-22, was the tally

As usual, this is just a rider thrown in on a bill to reauthorize Federal-aid highway and highway safety construction programs, and for other purposes.

I guess Obamas campaign signs, THIS PAID BY COMMUNIST REINVESTMENT ACT, TIGER or whatever all those bullshit signs you see everywhere say, are too old to matter for this election. The ones where some state union DOT guys bring out 10x the man power and 5x the heavy equipment, just to do some touch up paint on some bolts on the side of a bridge somewhere

i posted an article way back then that showed the cost of the signs alone

I


Their all crooks... the R or D is only to get you board with bending over... and those who argue one side and put down the other are only spreading their cheeks wider... this forum is full of loose assed gapers...


I cant believe that people drank the tea/koolaid party bullshit about rights and freedoms only to take them away... people trusted these people and voted out some experienced senators and congressmen in the hopes of "change"

You would think that even as a rider that this new teaparty legislative branch was supposed to do what it said it would... 

pathetic liars

I mean all the marches, rallies and speeches about reform only to take the power and screw the country...

And funny thing is even in the face of this reality people will continue to stand behind the phonies that they elected insisting that they are correct...

Pathetic
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#29
Posted: 4/18/2012 1:37:14 AM

The Tea Party movement as anyone who really follows politics knows ...was about spending ( TARP & the Stimulus ) and excess taxation ....2010 the focus turned to reforms to health insurance ..and Congress members that supported it ..

It was never about the "patriot" act or to increase freedoms and rights.........

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#30
Posted: 4/18/2012 1:40:18 AM
Here's the Nays

Jon Kyl
Jon McCain
Marco Rubio
James Risch
Mitch McConnel
Rand Paul
Richard Burr
Mike Johanns
Kelly Ayotte
Robert Portman
Thomas Coburn
Pat Toomey
Jim Demint
Lindsay Graham
Bob Corker
Jim Cornyn
Mike Lee
Ron Johnson
JOhn Barasso
Mikeal Enzi

Looks like you spoke before you looked at the facts, dl36

seems like a bunch of tea party folk, no?

Dems voted down the party line


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#31
Posted: 4/18/2012 1:50:11 AM
can you give me the yes votes of tea party people?

I will concede the point if there are actually less teaparty people that voted yes then no...

or is this a onesided thread out to try to support/bash a certain side...

Always figured you to be some that transcended partisan BS... perhaps  I am mistaken...

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#32
Posted: 4/18/2012 1:50:39 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by SarasotaSlim:

The Tea Party movement as anyone who really follows politics knows ...was about spending ( TARP & the Stimulus ) and excess taxation ....2010 the focus turned to reforms to health insurance ..and Congress members that supported it ..

It was never about the "patriot" act or to increase freedoms and rights.........



You would believe that
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#33
Posted: 4/18/2012 1:55:15 AM
beeasy,

Also if dems voted for this on party lines then what excuse does the teaparty/gops who voted for this have for taking away freedoms?

honestly I did not check who voted how... but if you could link that info it would be greatly appreciated...

Hopefully we can have a civil discussion with out of the usual "hoopla" that occurs  (not referring to you)
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#34
Posted: 4/18/2012 1:56:17 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by dl36:

can you give me the yes votes of tea party people?

I will concede the point if there are actually less teaparty people that voted yes then no...

or is this a onesided thread out to try to support/bash a certain side...

Always figured you to be some that transcended partisan BS... perhaps  I am mistaken...



why not do the research yourself? i don't know, nor do i care, who makes up the 'tea party', you are the one that devotes so much energy into that media buzz word

i googled it, and it said that there are four TP's in the senate,,,,Jerry Moran was the YEA vote

i bolded the three NAY votes

next time, maybe you should research the facts before blabbering a bunch of assumptions, or just stick to your usual old shtick
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#35
Posted: 4/18/2012 1:58:08 AM
you made six posts in this thread, just throwing wild assumptions around, without bothering to take a minute to straighten out the facts?

seems like you are just here to deter discussion, and clutter the forum with emoticons and uninformed opinions. get educated
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#36
Posted: 4/18/2012 2:11:25 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by be easy:



why not do the research yourself? i don't know, nor do i care, who makes up the 'tea party', you are the one that devotes so much energy into that media buzz word

i googled it, and it said that there are four TP's in the senate,,,,Jerry Moran was the YEA vote

i bolded the three NAY votes

next time, maybe you should research the facts before blabbering a bunch of assumptions, or just stick to your usual old shtick


how is teaparty a media buzzword?

The assumption I made was mathematical in nature... you put out the votes and assuming that there is a majority then one would assume that the GOP/teaparty could have mathematically voted this down but made the choice not to...

Your refusal for a link or even to talk about the mathematical reality that as you put it... they "were they simply politicians all along"... shows that perhaps you are trying to create a skewed bias...

saying this is liberal/conservative, obama/teaparty is stupid... they are all in on it


Funny thing is my "old shtick" as you call it makes you go nuts on this forum... yet I dont talk about the lack of critical/independent/logical/realistic thinking of the aliases and alias supports and you they you say I should go back to it?

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#37
Posted: 4/18/2012 2:16:54 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by be easy:

you made six posts in this thread, just throwing wild assumptions around, without bothering to take a minute to straighten out the facts?

seems like you are just here to deter discussion, and clutter the forum with emoticons and uninformed opinions. get educated


Like I said... mathematical/logical assumptions based on the numbers/facts you presented... I only interpreted and made an observation on the facts you chose to present and when I ask for more info it is interesting that you refuse...

I dont think I am deterring the discussion at all, perhaps just deterring the Spin/skew that you wanted to have on it with my own personal observations...

I think it is ironic that you tell me to get educated when we both know that I am actually more educated then you are... but I dont think that therefore my point of view is superior to your's because of it... or try to degrade you because I have more sheep skins...

I just give my opinion or perspective based on the the info you presented in your thread...

U mad br0?
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#38
Posted: 4/18/2012 4:03:15 AM
Bill 1813, it will now be the IRS—without any judicial oversight—which will determine if a citizen can travel or not. Not even the IRS as an institution—just some random IRS bureaucrat, with no oversight or restraint, will be able to decide to strip you of your right to travel freely.

No proof required, no judicial oversight or restraint.

In other words, the IRS’s word is enough—and you do not have the possibility of appeal. Who would you appeal to—a judge? There’s no judge in this case—because no judge supervises and monitors the IRS’s decision.

Democrats, republicans, liberals, conservatives, libertarians all should be angry at this BS and if you’re not angry about it? Then you are one of the reasons we have problems like these. Great more power for the ones who abuse it all ready.

Disco, Tahrir Square? I’m sorry but when I see a mans son or daughter being beaten and pepper sprayed and thousands of police dressed in riot gear, ready for war, protecting the 1 percent, and enforcing totalitarian law.

I’ll be sure to wear my tie-dye shirt with a sign that says peace and throw up duce’s while singing a song and people are being blinded, detained, and beaten. OK, their singing songs while holding peace signs in times square so, I surrender.

I’m sure the government will be OK we give up. I know way too damn much about politics, history and governments to believe that dictatorships can be ousted with peaceful protest alone.

Right now, the government is a trigger happy, greedy, cocky, arrogant, power hungry, pompous, fool who doesn’t take its citizens seriously. The government thinks they own us and doesn’t realize they work for us and we don’t work for them.

That Bob Marley Get Up, Stand Up philosophy is great but when the government tries to use brute force and laws to harm US citizens, we have to have the ability to fight back. The only way a democracy works is when the government fears it citizens and without guns and the threat of violence, it’s hard to do that.

The right to protest is slowly becoming illegal. The right to bear arms is slowly becoming illegal. More rights of Americans are slowly being stripped away. More laws are being created. My libertarian eyes can see it.

I’m not Anti-police or Anti-government. I want police and government. I’m pissed off on how it’s structured and being used right now.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
~ Abraham Lincoln

"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so."
~ Thomas Jefferson

"As long as enough people can be frightened, then all people can be ruled. That is how it works in a democratic system and mass fear becomes the ticket to destroy rights across the board."
~ James Bovard

"It is unfortunate that Americans are no longer aware of what the constitution says and what their rights are. Because of that, we are often very passive about what happens when the government violates those rights."
~ James Bovard

"It is amazing to think after all that has happened in this country in the last few years, the last few decades, that so many people have this blind faith that government is our friend and therefore, so we don't need protections against it."
~ James Bovard

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#39
Posted: 4/18/2012 6:00:49 AM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by be easy:



why not do the research yourself? i don't know, nor do i care, who makes up the 'tea party', you are the one that devotes so much energy into that media buzz word

i googled it, and it said that there are four TP's in the senate,,,,Jerry Moran was the YEA vote

i bolded the three NAY votes

next time, maybe you should research the facts before blabbering a bunch of assumptions, or just stick to your usual old shtick

this seems to be an epidemic

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#40
Posted: 4/18/2012 7:01:31 AM
Covers knows the irony
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#41
Posted: 4/18/2012 7:21:56 AM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by be easy:



you know how that works. leave it open to interpretation, with a nice grey area

let's be honest here djbrow, me and you both pay taxes, and me and you both go to great lengths to make sure we pay the absolute minimum amount that we can, even if that means stepping out into the grey area

i can think of multiple scenarios as to why i wouldn't want the IRS having this kind of power. I mean, we all know that income taxes are as inefficient a means of funding government as one could dream up. Not to mention, counter productive, because they dis-incentive-ize working,,,,,,which is the last thing we need right now with the economy being what it is, and with the dollar being in the dumps and wages being so dreadful. No wonder we find ourselves where we are, today

Of course people take great means to reduce their tax basis....I cannot say that is equated to a disinctive to work. I reduce my tax basis, like millions of others, through tax credits and payments to charities. Tax credits generally take three forms...credits for children (creating the incentive to reproduce), credits for reinvesting in the economy (mortgage tax credit, purchase of certain items, investing with a 401k, also including health care accounts), and credits for advancement of education.

I have never disagreed that our tax code has lots of problems, but I cannot agree with the idea that our government allow people who don't pay their taxes to leave the country or even take lavish foreign trips (which as an aside, do not help OUR economy) while they remain in tax debt.

I should note that one who owes taxes and is making regularly scheduled payments cannot be penalized by the IRS under the current tax code. I would imagine that obviously would include this restriction.

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#42
Posted: 4/18/2012 7:26:58 AM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by be easy:

Here's the Nays

Jon Kyl
Jon McCain
Marco Rubio
James Risch
Mitch McConnel
Rand Paul
Richard Burr
Mike Johanns
Kelly Ayotte
Robert Portman
Thomas Coburn
Pat Toomey
Jim Demint
Lindsay Graham
Bob Corker
Jim Cornyn
Mike Lee
Ron Johnson
JOhn Barasso
Mikeal Enzi

Looks like you spoke before you looked at the facts, dl36

seems like a bunch of tea party folk, no?

Dems voted down the party line


This list got me interested as I think it would be hard for politicians to face their constituents while supporting the premise that tax cheats could freely travel internationally or leave the country while those who are working hard and paying taxes can't take vacations at all.

I wonder how many people on this list did not vote for the bill because it was a government expenditure? Or to put it another way, supported the travel restriction portion, but not if it was tied to a government expenditure.

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#43
Posted: 4/18/2012 7:29:55 AM
credits for reinvesting in the economy (mortgage tax credit,

what on earth does the mortgage tax credit have to do with reinvesting in the economy


I'm fairly certain every economist throughout history, has agreed that income taxes are inefficient because they dis-incentive-ize working.  Look at the world today. People don't want to work because the pittance they are remitted isn't worth the exchange for their labor. Taxes are penalties, plain and simple. I know some confuse them as tithing of sorts for the privilege to work, but that is an inorganic idea planted in the mind of good little obedient debt serfs.

I can't believe those of you that don't have a problem with this bill, cannot see the potential for problems to arise.
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#44
Posted: 4/18/2012 7:33:35 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by dl36:



Like I said... mathematical/logical assumptions based on the numbers/facts you presented... I only interpreted and made an observation on the facts you chose to present and when I ask for more info it is interesting that you refuse...

I dont think I am deterring the discussion at all, perhaps just deterring the Spin/skew that you wanted to have on it with my own personal observations...

I think it is ironic that you tell me to get educated when we both know that I am actually more educated then you are... but I dont think that therefore my point of view is superior to your's because of it... or try to degrade you because I have more sheep skins...

I just give my opinion or perspective based on the the info you presented in your thread...

U mad br0?


actually, yoe were rambling off topic and i still provided you the off topic info you asked for. I think when it made you out to look like an uneducated fool, you got all defensive. Either way, doesn't matter, just stop stalking me, and like any other ignorant person, i'd suggest to stop making a fool of yourself and get educated on the matter you choose to girl about, lest you wind up looking like a dullard and a fool




I think it is ironic that you tell me to get educated when we both know that I am actually more educated then you are.

we do? we don't . Speak for yourself, i have never per missed you to speak on my behalf, and now that is see you are just throwing around wild assumptions, i'd really rather you not

covers noise
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#45
Posted: 4/18/2012 7:38:20 AM
Of course people take great means to reduce their tax basis....I cannot say that is equated to a disinctive to work


I thought you've posted here on covers before about how we ought be using tax policy to encourage and/or discourage certain types of behaviour. Isn't that the goal behind sin taxes, or proposed consumption taxes?

I personally turn down 'on the books' work all the time, because it is simply not worth my time to work EVEN MORE for uncle sam. The dollars i am forced to receive as compensation, don't spend worth a garbage these days, what with the government causing everything that we buy with said dollars to be so damned expensive. i know i am not alone, i hear other working poor type state this as a reason for not wanting to work some garbage job, all the time. 
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#46
Posted: 4/18/2012 10:02:32 AM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by be easy:

credits for reinvesting in the economy (mortgage tax credit,

what on earth does the mortgage tax credit have to do with reinvesting in the economy


I'm fairly certain every economist throughout history, has agreed that income taxes are inefficient because they dis-incentive-ize working.  Look at the world today. People don't want to work because the pittance they are remitted isn't worth the exchange for their labor. Taxes are penalties, plain and simple. I know some confuse them as tithing of sorts for the privilege to work, but that is an inorganic idea planted in the mind of good little obedient debt serfs.

I can't believe those of you that don't have a problem with this bill, cannot see the potential for problems to arise.

The proportion of income taxes could create a disincentive, absolutely. If the time of one's work equates to conceptually losing money or time, in a theoretical equation, the argument will always be there. Of course, it is measure against the budgetary needs of the individual.

But your argument is against the tax system. I get that. I do not agree that the revolution, so to speak, is a violation of the law. Rather it is to actually change the law.

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#47
Posted: 4/18/2012 10:06:35 AM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by be easy:

Of course people take great means to reduce their tax basis....I cannot say that is equated to a disinctive to work


I thought you've posted here on covers before about how we ought be using tax policy to encourage and/or discourage certain types of behaviour. Isn't that the goal behind sin taxes, or proposed consumption taxes?

I personally turn down 'on the books' work all the time, because it is simply not worth my time to work EVEN MORE for uncle sam. The dollars i am forced to receive as compensation, don't spend worth a garbage these days, what with the government causing everything that we buy with said dollars to be so damned expensive. i know i am not alone, i hear other working poor type state this as a reason for not wanting to work some garbage job, all the time. 

I am in favor of a reformation of a tax system that eliminates the disproportionate burden on the middle class, who have a higher basis than those below, but not the disposable income to reduce their basis like those above.

As I said in the post above, some people are in a position to not have to work to meet budgetary needs. If one is not in the position, I imagine they are not a position to turn work away. But again, it deflects from the view that one should have the right NOT to pay taxes and travel internationally or move away after not doing so.

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#48
Posted: 4/18/2012 10:23:12 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by MoneySRH:

Bill 1813, it will now be the IRS—without any judicial oversight—which will determine if a citizen can travel or not. Not even the IRS as an institution—just some random IRS bureaucrat, with no oversight or restraint, will be able to decide to strip you of your right to travel freely.


No proof required, no judicial oversight or restraint.

In other words, the IRS’s word is enough—and you do not have the possibility of appeal. Who would you appeal to—a judge? There’s no judge in this case—because no judge supervises and monitors the IRS’s decision.

Democrats, republicans, liberals, conservatives, libertarians all should be angry at this BS and if you’re not angry about it? Then you are one of the reasons we have problems like these. Great more power for the ones who abuse it all ready.

Disco, Tahrir Square? I’m sorry but when I see a mans son or daughter being beaten and pepper sprayed and thousands of police dressed in riot gear, ready for war, protecting the 1 percent, and enforcing totalitarian law.

I’ll be sure to wear my tie-dye shirt with a sign that says peace and throw up duce’s while singing a song and people are being blinded, detained, and beaten. OK, their singing songs while holding peace signs in times square so, I surrender.

I’m sure the government will be OK we give up. I know way too damn much about politics, history and governments to believe that dictatorships can be ousted with peaceful protest alone.

Right now, the government is a trigger happy, greedy, cocky, arrogant, power hungry, pompous, fool who doesn’t take its citizens seriously. The government thinks they own us and doesn’t realize they work for us and we don’t work for them.

That Bob Marley Get Up, Stand Up philosophy is great but when the government tries to use brute force and laws to harm US citizens, we have to have the ability to fight back. The only way a democracy works is when the government fears it citizens and without guns and the threat of violence, it’s hard to do that.

The right to protest is slowly becoming illegal. The right to bear arms is slowly becoming illegal. More rights of Americans are slowly being stripped away. More laws are being created. My libertarian eyes can see it.

I’m not Anti-police or Anti-government. I want police and government. I’m pissed off on how it’s structured and being used right now.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
~ Abraham Lincoln

"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so."
~ Thomas Jefferson

"As long as enough people can be frightened, then all people can be ruled. That is how it works in a democratic system and mass fear becomes the ticket to destroy rights across the board."
~ James Bovard

"It is unfortunate that Americans are no longer aware of what the constitution says and what their rights are. Because of that, we are often very passive about what happens when the government violates those rights."
~ James Bovard

"It is amazing to think after all that has happened in this country in the last few years, the last few decades, that so many people have this blind faith that government is our friend and therefore, so we don't need protections against it."
~ James Bovard


My point is that you cannot possibly think you have it WORSE in the USA than the people of Egypt had it during the Mubarak era. Especially in terms of various options, and protections of speech and right to protest etc. Everything you say in this post to justify an armed uprising can be applied to the Egypt example. It's illogical to say 'it can't possibly happen like that' (peacefully) when it already has, and it happened under more unlikely circumstances.


The likelihood of peaceful protests bringing meaningful change and reforms is logically much much much greater in the USA under Obama etc. than in the Middle East in countries like Egypt with decades old dictatorships. 

I'm not saying arming yourself can't work, or isn't another means. Logically it is. It's just a disaster in waiting, and like I said will involve massive los of life. For no reason, when it CAN be done peacefully. They can beat 1, or 10, or 100 protesters to protect the interests of only the 1%... but they can't beat 1,000,000  or 10,000,000 protestors. 

I'm thankful for the wise people in this forum who turned me onto Twitter. The only 'occupy' feed I follow is #OCCUPY CONGRESS (@OCongress), because that's the only one that matters if you want to achieve reform through peaceful protest.


In this sense, OCongress = Tahrir Square 
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#49
Posted: 4/18/2012 10:32:50 AM
My point is that you cannot possibly think you have it WORSE in the USA than the people of Egypt had it during the Mubarak era.

The likelihood of peaceful protests bringing meaningful change and reforms is logically much much much greater in the USA under Obama etc. than in the Middle East in countries like Egypt with decades old dictatorships.

Are you serious with this crap?  Why do you lefties always compare what you deem to be an appropriate level of freedom for the USA, with that of other garbage stain countries that have been mired in dictatorial funks for centuries? Everything is relative, BUT the desired level of freedom for those of us born free and wish to remain that way, shouldn't be relative to 2012 North Korea, rather 1780 USA


I'm thankful for the wise people in this forum who turned me onto Twitter. The only 'occupy' feed I follow is #OCCUPY CONGRESS (@OCongress), because that's the only one that matters if you want to achieve reform through peaceful protest.

we agree on much, my northern friend, however, your assumption that peaceful protest is an option at this point, is dangerous. Look what we are up against! A Leviathan of a police state, armed to the teeth and with zero regard for the sanctity of freedom nor the prosperity of their fellow man. The state has one goal, and that is self-preservation at ANY AND ALL COSTS. What has changed since the days of Cheney and Bush 
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#50
Posted: 4/18/2012 10:34:29 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:

I am in favor of a reformation of a tax system that eliminates the disproportionate burden on the middle class, who have a higher basis than those below, but not the disposable income to reduce their basis like those above.

As I said in the post above, some people are in a position to not have to work to meet budgetary needs. If one is not in the position, I imagine they are not a position to turn work away. But again, it deflects from the view that one should have the right NOT to pay taxes and travel internationally or move away after not doing so.



i'll ask that you think about this a little further, i mean , c'mon, you're a lawyer, and your guys whole deal depends upon the premise that we'd rather see 100 guilty men walk free, than one innocent man go unjustly punished. You cannot envision a scenario, where this could be a bad thing? did you even try, or were you just looking to justify any action by the state?
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