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Author: [Politics] Topic: Open & Shut Trayvon Martin Gets Cluttered With Facts
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#26
Posted: 3/29/2012 5:23:25 PM
Cashin
Money
let's say you guys are on the jury.

we hear zimmermans call, including the words "fuckin person"

we hear the dispatcher tell'em to let the please handle it

We hear from the police officers that zimmerman claimed self defense

let's say we also hear that settlement had a broken nose and injuries the back of his head, and stains on the back of his jacket

zimmerman DOES NOT take the stand.

do you believe that a person can fear for their life at the hands of another individual?

With that evidence, would you be able to say, beyond a reasonable doubt, that zimmerman is guilty of homocide or manslaughter?

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#27
Posted: 3/29/2012 5:23:55 PM
Cashin
Money
let's say you guys are on the jury.

we hear zimmermans call, including the words "fuckin person"

we hear the dispatcher tell'em to let the please handle it

We hear from the police officers that zimmerman claimed self defense

let's say we also hear that settlement had a broken nose and injuries the back of his head, and stains on the back of his jacket

zimmerman DOES NOT take the stand.

do you believe that a person can fear for their life at the hands of another individual?

With that evidence, would you be able to say, beyond a reasonable doubt, that zimmerman is guilty of homocide or manslaughter?

Posted using a mobile device.
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#28
Posted: 3/29/2012 5:26:13 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:

You ignore material info and hang on to the friggin back entrance which holds no bearing on the case.

I haven't seen one other person talk about the friggin back door as much as you. WHY?

The fact the Zimmerman said Martin was running in the opposite direction of Zimmerman on the 911 tape tells the prelude to the confrontation.  

How can someone who said he stopped following him and running in the opposite direction of Zimmerman, say he saw martin disappear and then one minute later say he was blindly confronted and attacked?

How can any person with any sense believe that a person would lose sight of a potentially dangerous person?

The idea that Martin was running away from Zimmerman, disappeared, and then ran back towards Zimmerman as he was going to his car in a matter of second’s sounds like bullshit.

Martin’s girlfriend was one the phone with Martin and said he was scared and was being followed and was approached by Zimmerman and said Zimmerman asked Martin “what he was doing there?”

Why did the officer who arrived on scene put on his report HOMICIDE–NEGLIG-MANSL–UNESSESSARY KILLING TO PREVENT UNLAWFUL ACT?

Again, the continued protestation and repudiation of the evidence by callous republicans is no surprise.

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#29
Posted: 3/29/2012 5:28:15 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:

You ignore material info and hang on to the friggin back entrance which holds no bearing on the case.

I haven't seen one other person talk about the friggin back door as much as you. WHY?

The material info doesn't tell the story either. Z was in no official capacity as a watchman - was self appointed, wasn't his job & he had no right even following Martin based on what he says he observed or questioning him. Conversely, Martin had no obligation to even acknowledge Z, much less answer questions.

My guess is the kid was angry (cuz he wasn't doing anything wrong) & a little scared that he was being followed, started walking fast & thought he'd lost him, then was confronted when Z pulled up & got out of his car. Based on the 911 call & the fact he even made it, it seems clear Z already thought M was up to no good & who knows what was said, but was probably insulting & demeaning towards Martin to some degree. Even if Z started to return to his car (& there's no way to know that, only have his word but is possible), it's understandable that Martin might have had a delayed reaction of indignaton/anger that he was even followed/questioned accusingly & went back to him where they exchanged more words, got into a fight which Martin was winning, then Z shot him. The fact that Martin was seen on top or whoever was hear screamin/moanin for help says nothing about anything.

Noone here is saying that Z intended to shoot & kill Martin from the outset, but 1 thing is clear. It was Z who created & provoked this entire situation & an unarmed kid who was doing nothing unlawful before it started ended up shot to death. A jury should decide this case...

  

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#30
Posted: 3/29/2012 5:32:02 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by cashin:

And that's partly why the "stand your ground" laws are bullshit as far as I'm concerned. There should have been an arrest & jury trial in this case even with those statutes imo. Hopefully, there still will be - will be a difficult case on both sides, but everything needs to come to light here under oath & let a jury decide. The known facts alone obviously do not tell the whole story...

 

 


The debate right now is ridiculous. "Self-defence" or not shouldn't really be the focus. Although, however unfortunate, I do understand why that is.

The real problem is that nobody is talking about the obvious issues with a vigilante society that allows Zimmerman to play police officer, PICK UP A GUN to pursue somebody he thought was a 'suspect,' get into an altercation, shoot that unarmed person dead, and then be DEFENDED AS THE VICTIM 

This is beyond absurd. Only in the gun loving USA...
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#31
Posted: 3/29/2012 5:36:37 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by cashin:

but 1 thing is clear. It was Z who created & provoked this entire situation & an unarmed kid who was doing nothing unlawful before it started ended up shot to death. A jury should decide this case...

  


There it is. The voice of reason 
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#32
Posted: 3/29/2012 5:37:32 PM
Cashin Finally someone else is thinking like a cop.
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#33
Posted: 3/29/2012 5:38:28 PM
A vigilante society? 

We live in a nation of spineless jellyfish, that allow our govt. to walk all over us, and criminals run rampant. 

Vigilante Society 

In a "Vigilante Society"  Zimmerman would have already been killed by Treyvon's dad ( if he wasn't out trying to capitalize on his son's death), and most likely Teyvon's dad would have been killed by Zimmerman's dad.  etc.  

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#34
Posted: 3/29/2012 5:48:34 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by cashin:

The material info doesn't tell the story either. Z was in no official capacity as a watchman - was self appointed, wasn't his job & he had no right even following Martin based on what he says he observed or questioning him. Conversely, Martin had no obligation to even acknowledge Z, much less answer questions.  could you link the law that says that Zimmerman is not allowed to form a neighborhood watch, or observe someone walking on a public street?  

My guess is the kid was angry (cuz he wasn't doing anything wrong) & a little scared that he was being followed, started walking fast & thought he'd lost him, then was confronted when Z pulled up & got out of his car. Based on the 911 call & the fact he even made it, it seems clear Z already thought M was up to no good & who knows what was said, but was probably insulting & demeaning towards Martin to some degree. Even if Z started to return to his car (& there's no way to know that, only have his word but is possible), it's understandable that Martin might have had a delayed reaction of indignaton/anger that he was even followed/questioned accusingly & went back to him where they exchanged more words, got into a fight which Martin was winning, then Z shot him. The fact that Martin was seen on top or whoever was hear screamin/moanin for help says nothing about anything. It says that Martin was on top of Zimmerman reigning down blows, it also says that this is the only eye witness testimony you will get (unless someone else comes forward).  This does not bode well if you are in the camp trying to imprison Zimmerman. 

Noone here is saying that Z intended to shoot & kill Martin from the outset, but 1 thing is clear. It was Z who created & provoked this entire situation & an unarmed kid who was doing nothing unlawful before it started ended up shot to death. A jury should decide this case...As I understand it, it does not matter how you got there.  Especially if it is a public place. We do not know how the events precipitated,  and we may never know.  I personally think ZImmerman walks away scott free, with his right to carry in tact. 

  


And I still do not understand how people are saying that he was told to stop following Teyvon?  

As I recall the statement by the operator was "we do not need you to do that"  .  

Not equal to ,  stop following him,  will not stand in court.  

Zimmerman's attorney could argue, that Zimmerman was already doing more than was required of him,  that He DID NOT need to be patrolling his neighborhood that night, but after a rash of burglaries he was determined to keep watch.  

Zimmerman though that the statement that he was not needed to follow was an option for Zimmerman's own safety, and had he been told to stop pursuit that he would have immediately stopped. 


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#35
Posted: 3/29/2012 5:58:24 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:




The real problem is that nobody is talking about the obvious issues with a vigilante society that allows Zimmerman to play police officer, PICK UP A GUN to pursue somebody he thought was a 'suspect,' get into an altercation, shoot that unarmed person dead, and then be DEFENDED AS THE VICTIM 



rick, it disgusts me to see you defending this. 

That's vigilantism my friend. 
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#36
Posted: 3/29/2012 6:04:26 PM
We - Used by a speaker to refer to him or her and one or more other people considered together.
Don’t - A statement of what should not be done.
Need - A requirement, necessary duty, or obligation.
You - Used to refer to the person or people that the speaker is addressing.
To - Expressing motion in the direction of.
Do – Perform.
That - Used to identify a specific person or thing observed by the speaker.

Don’t - A statement of what should not be done.
Do – Perform.
That - Used to identify a specific person or thing observed by the speaker.

Yeah, we don't need you to do that and don't do that are two different meanings?
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#37
Posted: 3/29/2012 6:06:24 PM
I am not defending him,  I think he should have a day in court.  The problem is that he is already guilty in the court of public opinoin, and there are hundreds of followers on the @killzimmerman Twitter page.  Bounties, threats etc.  

My natural reaction is to wait things out to see what the facts are.  I am sick of hearing about it in the media but there is so much that is unknown.  

How about this: 
Zimmerman was chosen as a neighborhood watch coordinator by his neighbors, according to Wendy Dorival, who organizes Neighborhood Watch for the Sanford Police Department.
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#38
Posted: 3/29/2012 6:06:56 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by J_Galt:

Cashin
Money
let's say you guys are on the jury.

we hear zimmermans call, including the words "fuckin person"

we hear the dispatcher tell'em to let the please handle it

We hear from the police officers that zimmerman claimed self defense

let's say we also hear that settlement had a broken nose and injuries the back of his head, and stains on the back of his jacket

zimmerman DOES NOT take the stand.

do you believe that a person can fear for their life at the hands of another individual?

With that evidence, would you be able to say, beyond a reasonable doubt, that zimmerman is guilty of homocide or manslaughter?

The evidence says manslaughter is what Zimmerman should be charged with.
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#39
Posted: 3/29/2012 6:08:22 PM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by MoneySRH:

The fact the Zimmerman said Martin was running in the opposite direction of Zimmerman on the 911 tape tells the prelude to the confrontation.  

How can someone who said he stopped following him and running in the opposite direction of Zimmerman, say he saw martin disappear and then one minute later say he was blindly confronted and attacked?

How can any person with any sense believe that a person would lose sight of a potentially dangerous person?

The idea that Martin was running away from Zimmerman, disappeared, and then ran back towards Zimmerman as he was going to his car in a matter of second’s sounds like bullshit.

Martin’s girlfriend was one the phone with Martin and said he was scared and was being followed and was approached by Zimmerman and said Zimmerman asked Martin “what he was doing there?”

Why did the officer who arrived on scene put on his report HOMICIDE–NEGLIG-MANSL–UNESSESSARY KILLING TO PREVENT UNLAWFUL ACT?

Again, the continued protestation and repudiation of the evidence by callous republicans is no surprise.

You use the word disappear and I've seen the words in reports as 'lost sight' Two very different meanings.

If he turned around to head back to his vehicle that would explain how he lost sight of Trayvon. Ya right, nobody in the history of the free world has lost sight of a dangerous person have they?

The report actually said that Trayvon asked him why he was following him first.

Idiotic liberal non objective vigilante's jump to wrong conclusions then ignore sound evidence and rationale.

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#40
Posted: 3/29/2012 6:09:29 PM
Where the darn did he "pick up" the gun?? Was he legally precluded from carrying? Did the police investigate? Was Martin a wannabe gangster with gold "teath" and an arrest record who attacked Zim?

Oh well.

Time to refocus on what a shitty job obama is doing................


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#41
Posted: 3/29/2012 6:11:27 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by MoneySRH:

We - Used by a speaker to refer to him or her and one or more other people considered together. 
Don’t - A statement of what should not be done. 
Need - A requirement, necessary duty, or obligation.
You - Used to refer to the person or people that the speaker is addressing.
To - Expressing motion in the direction of.
Do – Perform.
That - Used to identify a specific person or thing observed by the speaker.

Don’t - A statement of what should not be done.
Do – Perform.
That - Used to identify a specific person or thing observed by the speaker.

Yeah, we don't need you to do that and don't do that are two different meanings?

You are dead wrong.  

We don't need you to do that.  Is not the same as Don't do that. 

Using your fucktarded breakdown above one could infer that to mean. that it is not required for you to do that, 
or it is not a necessary duty for you to follow him,
or you have no obligation to follow him. 

Completely different from the statement. 

STOP FOLLOWING HIM
 DO NOT FOLLOW HIM 
CEASE FOLLOWING HIM
PLEASE STOP YOUR FOLLOWING 
YOU SHOULD NOT FOLLOW HIM 


Get it?  



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#42
Posted: 3/29/2012 6:16:34 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by cashin:

The material info doesn't tell the story either. Z was in no official capacity as a watchman - was self appointed, wasn't his job & he had no right even following Martin based on what he says he observed or questioning him. Conversely, Martin had no obligation to even acknowledge Z, much less answer questions.

My guess is the kid was angry (cuz he wasn't doing anything wrong) & a little scared that he was being followed, started walking fast & thought he'd lost him, then was confronted when Z pulled up & got out of his car. Based on the 911 call & the fact he even made it, it seems clear Z already thought M was up to no good & who knows what was said, but was probably insulting & demeaning towards Martin to some degree. Even if Z started to return to his car (& there's no way to know that, only have his word but is possible), it's understandable that Martin might have had a delayed reaction of indignaton/anger that he was even followed/questioned accusingly & went back to him where they exchanged more words, got into a fight which Martin was winning, then Z shot him. The fact that Martin was seen on top or whoever was hear screamin/moanin for help says nothing about anything.

Noone here is saying that Z intended to shoot & kill Martin from the outset, but 1 thing is clear. It was Z who created & provoked this entire situation & an unarmed kid who was doing nothing unlawful before it started ended up shot to death. A jury should decide this case...

  

Complete bullshit cashin. Last time I checked it is unlawful to punch someone in the face and bang their head into the pavement.

Show me the law that says you are aloud to punch someone in the face.

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#43
Posted: 3/29/2012 6:17:36 PM

rick - 1st of all, I didn't say he wasn't allowed to form a neighborhood watch or observe anyone.I'm saying he was in no official capacity to where anyone had the obligation to answer any of his questions. You're puttin words in my mouth there & I'm not in any "camp". Am only saying a jury should decide after hearing all the related & relevant testimony -

Hope the "stand your ground" laws are repealed soon. They're redundant at best & loaded with unintended consequences. They may benefit funeral homes, gun manufacturers/dealers & the NRA, but certainly don't serve the cause of justice in America.

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#44
Posted: 3/29/2012 6:22:24 PM
Didn't mean to put words in your mouth Cashin.  
Just found the fact while I was poking around.  

I think that Zimmerman will walk on this,  I really do not know if he is guilty of a crime in the state of Florida.  

Even though I am probably the most stringent 2nd amendment guy in this forum,  I think that the Stand your ground law kind of sets a weird standard for justified homicide.  

I would have to look more into it, but I do not think at this point I am against it being repealed.  

I like the standards in my state, and I like the castle law,  I also like the Castle law to include one's vehicle, as it does in my state.  I think the Stand your ground law allows for disproportionate force to be used.  Only a small assault could be met with deadly force.  

I would rather go to hands than arms if someone assaults me.  
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#45
Posted: 3/29/2012 6:31:27 PM
@#38
money, ty for he responce

A follow up question if I may:

Do you believe that someone armed with a gun ( zimmerman ) could be in fear of their life if another unarmed person has broken their nose, knocked them to the ground, and is continuing to punch them?
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#46
Posted: 3/29/2012 6:31:42 PM

The rationale for the Stand your ground law....

At the time, Timoney was finding it challenging enough to reduce the use of deadly physical force by the officers of his department. And here was a law proposing to give civilians with no training or experience even greater leeway than cops to blaze away.

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#47
Posted: 3/29/2012 6:31:52 PM
darn, I guess it would be easy to attack you because if I saw someone who looked like who could hurt me I would even blink.
The only time Zimmerman told the truth was on the 911 tape.
The report actually said that Trayvon asked him why he was following him first.
Zimmerman said that not Martin’s girlfriend.
Lose sight of - Be no longer able to see
Disappear - Cease to be visible
Republicans have zero capability of having an analytic mind.
You should not do that and don’t do that and disappear and lose sight.
Arguing over meticulous bullshit and are always so damn persnickety.
What the darn does Martin kicking his behind have to do with the fact that Zimmerman started the entire situation and since he started it, he deserves to be charged with manslaughter?
darn, you guys are morons.
I think like a cop and you think like a dumbass vigilante uneducated derrrr republican.

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#48
Posted: 3/29/2012 6:32:47 PM

At the time, Timoney was finding it challenging enough to reduce the use of deadly physical force by the officers of his department. And here was a law proposing to give civilians with no training or experience even greater leeway than cops to blaze away.

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#49
Posted: 3/29/2012 6:37:04 PM

But Hammer knew how to sell the bill in a way that a great majority of legislators would find politically irresistible.

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#50
Posted: 3/29/2012 6:37:45 PM

sorry..the sight isn't allowing me to paste everything correctly

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