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Author: [Politics] Topic: Open & Shut Trayvon Martin Gets Cluttered With Facts
SarasotaSlim send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook |
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#326
Posted: 4/1/2012 9:18:30 PM

One thing is fo shizzle the lame stream media is trying to paint Zimmerman as a racist .... 1st.MSNBC edits his statements on the 911-call and ABC,CBS and MSNBC show the video at police station saying no abrasions or blood can be seen in the video ...now MSNBC concedes that there is some sort of injury to the back of the head of George Zimmerman in the video..

...as Ran Rather would say :

it doesn't really matter if it's made-up,it's still true ..                                                                

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#327
Posted: 4/1/2012 9:19:54 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by cashin:

 

Maybe you should wait for Slim or the right wing talkin points, because your arguments are sorely lacking in every way imaginable 

Thats your oppinion but I am very comfortable arguing for myself.

When a year goes by and Zimmerman is never charged with anything dispite the millions of dollars thrown at the investigation we will see who will have made the most sense. Wont we?

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#328
Posted: 4/1/2012 9:22:03 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:

Thats bs.

Even if Travon and Zimmerman were standing nose to nose and Trayvon looked down and saw a gun at Zimmermans side in a holster he would not have grounds to defend himself until the gun came out of the holster or Zimmerman started pounding his head into the sidewalk or whatever.

Actually going to correct myself.

Until it appears that Zimmerman is making a move for his gun rather than when the gun comes out of the holster.

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#329
Posted: 4/1/2012 9:30:11 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:

Thats bs.

Even if Travon and Zimmerman were standing nose to nose and Trayvon looked down and saw a gun at Zimmermans side in a holster he would not have grounds to defend himself until the gun came out of the holster or Zimmerman started pounding his head into the sidewalk or whatever.

Try reading about Bernard Goetz. Read the case. I cannot have a debate with you if you aren't informed as to the law that governs self-defense.

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#330
Posted: 4/1/2012 9:57:00 PM
isnt a "properly informed alias/alias supporter" an oxymoron?
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#331
Posted: 4/1/2012 10:08:54 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:

Try reading about Bernard Goetz. Read the case. I cannot have a debate with you if you aren't informed as to the law that governs self-defense.

Bernard Goetz isnt the spot on example as you have inferred.

Bernard made statements that had actually showed intent past defending himself. He actually stated that if he had more bullets he would have shot them more.

Also, a jurys ruling is not consistent. Also, Goetz was surrounded and had a previous mugging that led him to beign predispositioned.

 

 

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#332
Posted: 4/1/2012 10:09:59 PM

I heard a guy at the lounge bar down the street saying, that he felt the Martin family should sue the school superintendent of the Miami Dade school district.

If he didn't suspend Trayvon for having the bag of weed.. he would have still been in Miami,instead of up in Sanford...

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#333
Posted: 4/1/2012 10:14:44 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:

Bernard Goetz isnt the spot on example as you have inferred.

Bernard made statements that had actually showed intent past defending himself. He actually stated that if he had more bullets he would have shot them more.

Also, a jurys ruling is not consistent. Also, Goetz was surrounded and had a previous mugging that led him to beign predispositioned.

 

It isn't an example at all. Rather, it provides the basis for the law on self-defense (subjective beliefs of the person interpreting harm).

Goetz was found innocent as a result of his beliefs.

Your view that one needs to wait until they are shot or stabbed to feel at risk for their safety is beyond silly.

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#334
Posted: 4/1/2012 10:23:12 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by SarasotaSlim:

I heard a guy at the lounge bar down the street saying, that he felt the Martin family should sue the school superintendent of the Miami Dade school district.

If he didn't suspend Trayvon for having the bag of weed.. he would have still been in Miami,instead of up in Sanford...



Now that's funny. 

They should try to sue the neighborhood's association or something to that effect that knowingly allowed Zimmerman to act as pseudo-police with a weapon and his history of violence and aggression.
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#335
Posted: 4/1/2012 10:23:29 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by SarasotaSlim:

I heard a guy at the lounge bar down the street saying, that he felt the Martin family should sue the school superintendent of the Miami Dade school district.

If he didn't suspend Trayvon for having the bag of weed.. he would have still been in Miami,instead of up in Sanford...

Or better yet. Sue Zimmermans eye doctor. For if he hadn't corrected his vision he would have never seen the boy to begin with.

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#336
Posted: 4/1/2012 10:26:53 PM
Sue the makers of Skittles for making a product that is delicious enough to go out for and apparently looks a lot like a deadly weapon.
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#337
Posted: 4/1/2012 10:26:55 PM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by depeche2:



They should try to sue the neighborhood's association or something to that effect that knowingly allowed Zimmerman to act as pseudo-police with a weapon and his history of violence and aggression.

Bingo .......

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#338
Posted: 4/1/2012 10:29:54 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:

It isn't an example at all. Rather, it provides the basis for the law on self-defense (subjective beliefs of the person interpreting harm).

Goetz was found innocent as a result of his beliefs.

Your view that one needs to wait until they are shot or stabbed to feel at risk for their safety is beyond silly.

Except that I never said anything like that. I said he needed to wait until after Zimmerman went for his gun. Simply having the gun in a holster is no threat.

Geotz was surrounded by 4 adult males. I'm sure if it were only one male that argued he was panhandeling in court the outcome may very well have been different.

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#339
Posted: 4/1/2012 10:33:38 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:

Except that I never said anything like that. I said he needed to wait until after Zimmerman went for his gun. Simply having the gun in a holster is no threat.

Geotz was surrounded by 4 adult males. I'm sure if it were only one male that argued he was panhandeling in court the outcome may very well have been different.

Now that is completely logical. One must wait until the person actually points and fires the gun. I mean, because a person will have plenty of time to defend themself in between aiming the gun and firing.

And under your theory, Goetz had even less of a basis for self-defense as the black males had no weapons, therefore had no weapons to 'go for.'

Priceless.

 

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#340
Posted: 4/1/2012 10:44:21 PM

DJ I truly hate to provide you with the statement that makes you 0-3 but you leave me little choice.

Right now I could legally strap a gun and holster on and walk down any of my city blocks I choose. If then a person who is walking a block or so ahead of me turns around and sees that I have the gun strapped to my hip and walking towards them, according to you they could immediatly start taking steps to defend themselves though at that point there aren't many options. If that person had a concealed gun on them they would not have justification to pull that gun out and shoot me merely because I have a gun and appear to be following or coming towards them.

Intent is key even to a self defense case.

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#341
Posted: 4/1/2012 10:46:47 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:

Now that is completely logical. One must wait until the person actually points and fires the gun. I mean, because a person will have plenty of time to defend themself in between aiming the gun and firing.

And under your theory, Goetz had even less of a basis for self-defense as the black males had no weapons, therefore had no weapons to 'go for.'

Priceless.

 

Except that once again you got it wrong, I never said until the gun is pointing at you I said goes for his gun. You need to stop because you frequently get my statements wrong and then I have to get after you because you read my statement wrong and attacked me based on what you thaught I said. Its bullshit and you should be smarter than that.

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#342
Posted: 4/1/2012 10:53:51 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:

Now that is completely logical. One must wait until the person actually points and fires the gun. I mean, because a person will have plenty of time to defend themself in between aiming the gun and firing.

And under your theory, Goetz had even less of a basis for self-defense as the black males had no weapons, therefore had no weapons to 'go for.'

Priceless.

 

Have you never heard the term "Presence and demeanor?".

It works both ways. A cop can dictate control over a situation with Presence and demeanor and criminals can have the same control.

The demeanor of the 4 adult males armed with screwdrivers, concealed or not, combined with the fact that they physically surrounded Goetz and left him no escape route lead to his aquittal.

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#343
Posted: 4/1/2012 11:22:28 PM
If I remember the Bernie Goetz case correctly, he should of been acquitted on most shooting charges, but also have been convicted of a shooting charge.

I may not remember this case correctly, but I thought he shot a bunch of the kids, and then went over to 1 kid who was incapacitated, and said something like " you don't look bad, here's another" in my opinion, that shot was excessive.

certainly he still was traumatized by the event, but the kid was no longer a threat.

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#344
Posted: 4/1/2012 11:27:43 PM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by J_Galt:

If I remember the Bernie Goetz case correctly, he should of been acquitted on most shooting charges, but also have been convicted of a shooting charge.

I may not remember this case correctly, but I thought he shot a bunch of the kids, and then went over to 1 kid who was incapacitated, and said something like " you don't look bad, here's another" in my opinion, that shot was excessive.

certainly he still was traumatized by the event, but the kid was no longer a threat.

True, he was aquitted of all charges but carrying an illegal firearm.

And he stated that if he had more bullets he would have shot them up more. He definately went beyond self defense.

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#345
Posted: 4/2/2012 12:00:05 AM
What also helped Goetz is NYC was riddled with crime back then.

Most on the jury pool probably had either been mugged or knew somebody who had been mugged.

public sentiment in new york was on his side.
the guardian angels
CORE ( who had a black leader,
Roy innis )
the average guy on the street was putting in some money for Goetz's defense.

Of course al sharpton was screaming about innocent blacks getting gunned down by the white guy.

New Yorkers celebrated his acquittal.

It still took years for the city to become safe though.

After Koch came David Dinkens.
The city reached an all time low.

Thank God Rudy G. became mayor after tgat.
He brought new york city back to the greatness that it still enjoys today
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#346
Posted: 4/2/2012 1:32:29 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:

Have you never heard the term "Presence and demeanor?".

It works both ways. A cop can dictate control over a situation with Presence and demeanor and criminals can have the same control.

The demeanor of the 4 adult males armed with screwdrivers, concealed or not, combined with the fact that they physically surrounded Goetz and left him no escape route lead to his aquittal.

1.A gun by itself is not a threat.

2. A person standing in front of you giving you a dirty look is cause fro an elevation of awareness but not a threat.

3. Scenario  2 + a holstered gun is yet another elevation of awareness yet still not a threat.

4. Scenario 3 only becomes a threat at the moment that intent to use the gun on you or someone else is manifested.

5. Scenario 2 could be a threat if the person punches you in the face and slams your head repeatedly in the ground. Irregardless of all actions up to that point.

I think that will hold up to any argument.

GSM

IPC

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#347
Posted: 4/2/2012 2:03:24 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:

Your example is completely unrelated as it involves multiple external factors not present in mine. And it is a subjective standard. Google that to learn what it means.

If there are two people on the street with no one else around and one person is following another with a gun and that person has knowledge of that gun, the actor has every legal right to turn around and confront the person carrying the weapon.

No doubt if I changed the scenario to a white businessman walking in a black neighborhood while a black teenager with a gun starts following him, the white businessman would have the right to defend himself. I'm sure if you check with your friends at Fox News, they would tell you that he would and you would no doubt support that right.

What exactly are the external factors present in my example that you're talking about? Do tell!

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#348
Posted: 4/2/2012 2:56:13 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:

Thats your oppinion but I am very comfortable arguing for myself.

When a year goes by and Zimmerman is never charged with anything dispite the millions of dollars thrown at the investigation we will see who will have made the most sense. Wont we?

I guess we will. The grand jury will convene soon & I expect them to get an indictment. Seems as if you looked at this incident backasswards from the beginning imo. Instead of looking at there being no evidence to charge Zimmerman, you should have seen that he killed a kid & there is no evidence or witnesses to show or prove that he clearly acted in self defense despite whatever injuries he has & that a 13 yr old said he was on the bottom getting beat up at 1 point.

And every other statement or piece of evidence (911 call, gf's acct of cell call if it stands up, affadavit from lead investigator, voice experts saying it's almost certain that it's not Z, lying to the cops about past trouble, M with no history of violence & not doing anything wrong, etc) clearly works against him big-time, especially in combination. By the time everything is put together, I guarantee Z won't want to face a trial -

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#349
Posted: 4/2/2012 3:24:50 AM
DJ,
 I wonder if some here dont know you are actually a practicing lawyer with a law degree from a real law school?
A regular person arguing about how the law works with a lawyer is like a regular person telling a rocket scientist his rocket wont launch or a regular person telling billy walters he doesnt know how to make money gambling

being a gambling man, i gotta believe that you know a little more about the law then us regular folks
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#350
Posted: 4/2/2012 3:49:13 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by cashin:

I guess we will. The grand jury will convene soon & I expect them to get an indictment. Seems as if you looked at this incident backasswards from the beginning imo. Instead of looking at there being no evidence to charge Zimmerman, you should have seen that he killed a kid & there is no evidence or witnesses to show or prove that he clearly acted in self defense despite whatever injuries he has & that a 13 yr old said he was on the bottom getting beat up at 1 point.

And every other statement or piece of evidence (911 call, gf's acct of cell call if it stands up, affadavit from lead investigator, voice experts saying it's almost certain that it's not Z, lying to the cops about past trouble, M with no history of violence & not doing anything wrong, etc) clearly works against him big-time, especially in combination. By the time everything is put together, I guarantee Z won't want to face a trial -

Cashin,

Im happy to debate you line by line and appreciate your effort for civility. Some others simply want to attack just because they don't agree rather than just making another argument.

Did you see what you said in essence?

Instead of looking at there being no evidence to charge Zimmerman, you should have seen that he killed a kid & there is no evidence or witnesses to show or prove that he clearly acted in self defense despite whatever injuries he has & that a 13 yr old said he was on the bottom getting beat up at 1 point.

The key word being 'clearly'. There is likely no video of the incident and likely no witness that was able to see the confrontation. Thankfully, our system doesn't require that high of a standard to take away someones freedoms or execute them. The legal standard is 'beyond a reasonable doubt' and the two items you mentioned are enough.

Plus Trayvons own father telling an investigator that the voice was not his son's voice. That is more compelling to me than some voice expert saying he thinks it wasn't Zimmerman. I would think a father would be able to tell if a sound belongs to a family member or not. Plus the injuries to Zimmerman and the testimony of the 13 year old boy saying the cries came from the one on the bottom...add up to the higher likelihood of Zimmerman being the source of the screaming. There is little to dispute that and much to sustain it.

I do see this ordeal as a strategy, yet I also have to look at this from a legal standpoint and after initially being on the side of most of the public I changed sides based on witness statements I believe and being able to explain away witnesses that added or projected things they could not have known.

IE. Mary Cutcher said that she heard someone screaming 'bloody murder' over and over and that she felt that it was a little boy based on the sound of the voice. Once she found out who the cops had percieved to be screaming based on other witness statements and injuries to Zimmerman, she couldnt get into her puny little brain that maybe Zimmerman had a high voice...which he does as well as his brother Robert. She made assumptions only based on the fact that Trayvon was much younger so clearly his voice had to sound 'younger'. Does that make sense?

As mentioned before, Zimmerman had called 911 some 46 times in a rather short period of time...leading people to perhaps rightfully believe that he really was a paranoid person or he was over zeolous...or both. I would submit to you that this scenario could have played out. o...some 25 times or so and each other time zero shots were fired by him. What does that mean? It means that he most likely let the cops come in and sort it out..rather than taking everything or even some in his own hands. Maybe he did confront others and perhaps let them go with an explanation..but it shows that he was not out to shoot people for just being suspicious.

He may very well be a hot head, he may from time to time make bad decisions. That doesn't mean that he is a hot head all the time...especially when we have MORE evidence to show that the other guy started the physical confrontation and zero evidence that he started the confrontation.

I welcome your counter arguments that dont over speculate. If you would like to present a theory...back it up somehow.

 

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