Open & Shut Trayvon Martin Gets Cluttered With Facts

Forum: Politics Page 1 of 20  1 2 3 4 5   »
Author: [Politics] Topic: Open & Shut Trayvon Martin Gets Cluttered With Facts
14daroad PM 14daroad
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 9261
 
14daroad
Participation Meter
Captain
Posted: 3/28/2012 10:12:29 AM

Remember, two weeks ago the narrative was Martin was just minding his own business when a gun-wielding vigilante came out of nowhere and gunned him down for the crime of being black and wearing a hoodie.

Well, what have we learned?

A. In October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area “hiding and being suspicious.”

B. Zimmerman called 9-11 and told police Martin looked suspicious  (note in the first two months of 2012, there were eight burglaries, two bike thefts and three simple assaults in the neighborhood. In September, the Sanford police helped the Retreat start a neighborhood watch program.)

C. Two witnesses have said that Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating him.

D. The initial police report noted that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of the head and nose.

E. Zimmerman stated that he lost sight of Martin and was attacked as he was returning to his vehicle. Based on the complete transcript of the  9-11 call Zimmerman's initial and final locations are near the Retreat at Twin Lakes clubhouse; the location consistent with his verbal directions to his parked car was near the final shooting which supporrts Zimmerman's account.

 F. Who is the agressor? Martin's girlfriend had said in a recording obtained exclusively by ABC News that she heard Martin ask Zimmerman "why are your following me, and then the man asked, what are you doing around here." She then heard a scuffle break out.

Based on what is known,  there could be a trial with zero witnesses to the outset of the fight between Zimmerman and Martin. Zimmerman can't prove Martin started it, but he doesn't need to, and no one living can say he didn't. 

G. There is no serious dispute that Zimmerman had the legal right to an evening stroll in his own neighborhood - the suggestion from the police dispatcher that he not pursue Martin was not some sort of a lawful order he must obey, and in any case, Zimmerman claims to have complied.

H. The law is going to make it tough on prosector's to prove this case:

However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if: He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.

I. We do not have a toxicology report on either Martin or Zimmerman.

The won't be one on Zimmerman, but the autopsy on Martin could be revealing and in fact could present evidence that Martin was struggling with Zimmerman for the gun (which is what Zimmerman has said).

J. There is a lot of political pressure for an arrest. Unless a new witness comes to light, it is tough to see an appetite for a trial. Charges would be a few weeks away.

Tough call on whether or not Zimmerman will be arrested...

rick3117 PM rick3117
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14715
 
rick3117
Participation Meter
All-Star
Posted: 3/28/2012 3:13:38 PM
Shadow of a doubt + Media Propaganda campaign =  Large scale riots that will have everyone glued to FOX, MSNBC, CNN etc.  


Henry-Lilly PM Henry-Lilly
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 10497
 
Henry-Lilly
Participation Meter
All-Star
Posted: 3/28/2012 3:41:53 PM
14daroad PM 14daroad
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 9261
 
14daroad
Participation Meter
Captain
Posted: 3/29/2012 10:59:54 AM
Still photos of ABC Video clearly show injury to the back of Zimmerman's head.
DiscoD69 PM DiscoD69
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7937
 
DiscoD69
Participation Meter
Captain
Posted: 3/29/2012 11:36:58 AM
"clearly shows" 

..your unquestioning bias 
14daroad PM 14daroad
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 9261
 
14daroad
Participation Meter
Captain
Posted: 3/29/2012 11:40:13 AM

"clearly shows"

 

==============

Um, what is that big mark on the back of his head, bozo?

 

J_Galt PM J_Galt
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 381
 
J_Galt
Participation Meter
Banned
Posted: 3/29/2012 11:46:36 AM
I would love to see a picture that includes more of the back of a shirt jacket, although it is red in color I am not sure if we would see blood stains, if any
Posted using a mobile device.
bowlslit PM bowlslit
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5625
 
bowlslit
Participation Meter
Banned
Posted: 3/29/2012 12:38:20 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:

"clearly shows" 

..your unquestioning bias 

Oh the irony!

kaponofor3 PM kaponofor3
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 35340
 
kaponofor3
Participation Meter
Legend
Posted: 3/29/2012 12:45:31 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by 14daroad:

Remember, two weeks ago the narrative was Martin was just minding his own business when a gun-wielding vigilante came out of nowhere and gunned him down for the crime of being black and wearing a hoodie.

Well, what have we learned?

A. In October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area “hiding and being suspicious.”

B. Zimmerman called 9-11 and told police Martin looked suspicious  (note in the first two months of 2012, there were eight burglaries, two bike thefts and three simple assaults in the neighborhood. In September, the Sanford police helped the Retreat start a neighborhood watch program.)

C. Two witnesses have said that Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating him.

D. The initial police report noted that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of the head and nose.

E. Zimmerman stated that he lost sight of Martin and was attacked as he was returning to his vehicle. Based on the complete transcript of the  9-11 call Zimmerman's initial and final locations are near the Retreat at Twin Lakes clubhouse; the location consistent with his verbal directions to his parked car was near the final shooting which supporrts Zimmerman's account.

 F. Who is the agressor? Martin's girlfriend had said in a recording obtained exclusively by ABC News that she heard Martin ask Zimmerman "why are your following me, and then the man asked, what are you doing around here." She then heard a scuffle break out.

Based on what is known,  there could be a trial with zero witnesses to the outset of the fight between Zimmerman and Martin. Zimmerman can't prove Martin started it, but he doesn't need to, and no one living can say he didn't. 

G. There is no serious dispute that Zimmerman had the legal right to an evening stroll in his own neighborhood - the suggestion from the police dispatcher that he not pursue Martin was not some sort of a lawful order he must obey, and in any case, Zimmerman claims to have complied.

H. The law is going to make it tough on prosector's to prove this case:

However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if: He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.

I. We do not have a toxicology report on either Martin or Zimmerman.

The won't be one on Zimmerman, but the autopsy on Martin could be revealing and in fact could present evidence that Martin was struggling with Zimmerman for the gun (which is what Zimmerman has said).

J. There is a lot of political pressure for an arrest. Unless a new witness comes to light, it is tough to see an appetite for a trial. Charges would be a few weeks away.

Tough call on whether or not Zimmerman will be arrested...




The question is was Zimmerman's belief of imminent death or great bodily injury reasonable?

Also, I have no idea how an autopsy would establish that the two were struggling for the gun? Please elaborate.
bowlslit PM bowlslit
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5625
 
bowlslit
Participation Meter
Banned
Posted: 3/29/2012 12:54:46 PM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by kaponofor3:




The question is was Zimmerman's belief of imminent death or great bodily injury reasonable?

 

Since the procesutor agreed there is not enough evidence to get a conviction of manslaughter. I would AGREE STRONGLY.

Is common sense more plintiful in some areas over others?

Please direct these inobjective smuks to the common sense trough. Before its too late.

bowlslit PM bowlslit
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5625
 
bowlslit
Participation Meter
Banned
Posted: 3/29/2012 12:55:08 PM

Plentiful...he he

 

esplanade PM esplanade
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 9021
 
esplanade
Participation Meter
Captain
Posted: 3/29/2012 2:13:45 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:

Oh the irony!




Ktrain PM Ktrain
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6371
 
Ktrain
Participation Meter
Captain
Posted: 3/29/2012 3:10:54 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by 14daroad:

Still photos of ABC Video clearly show injury to the back of Zimmerman's head.

It doesn't clearly show anything. It's a pretty grainy still photo from a video. I'm pretty sure a decent lawyer could argue that is part of a glare from a light at the station. Maybe something that is in between the light and Zimmerman's head. 

My question would be did the police document marks on Zimmerman's head in the report? Were there pictures taking of these injuries? If not, then why? 

I haven't came across any news of this yet. Isn't it S.O.P. of photos to be taken of someone's injuries in self defense cases like this? 

I don't know because I have never been involved in this sort of thing. I'm just asking questions. 
DiscoD69 PM DiscoD69
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7937
 
DiscoD69
Participation Meter
Captain
Posted: 3/29/2012 3:25:28 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Ktrain:


It doesn't clearly show anything. It's a pretty grainy still photo from a video. I'm pretty sure a decent lawyer could argue that is part of a glare from a light at the station. Maybe something that is in between the light and Zimmerman's head. 

My question would be did the police document marks on Zimmerman's head in the report? Were there pictures taking of these injuries? If not, then why? 

I haven't came across any news of this yet. Isn't it S.O.P. of photos to be taken of someone's injuries in self defense cases like this? 

I don't know because I have never been involved in this sort of thing. I'm just asking questions. 

And that is the irony here...

If you think a GRAINY (and possibly edited) still photo from a video "clearly" shows something, your bias is evident.

DiscoD69 PM DiscoD69
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7937
 
DiscoD69
Participation Meter
Captain
Posted: 3/29/2012 3:26:31 PM
Though, I do appreciate two of the three 'K's teaming up to try and paint a picture 
J_Galt PM J_Galt
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 381
 
J_Galt
Participation Meter
Banned
Posted: 3/29/2012 3:39:58 PM
@#9
I believe what an autopsy could show is the proximity of the gun to the victim when he was shot.
other factors that would need to be investigated would be martins clothes and zimmermans clothes.

with gunshot wounds comes " blowback".
that is when body parts from the victim spurr out of the open wound.

it's martin was standing up when he was shot there would be less blowback on Zimmermans clothes than if martin was laying on top of zimmerman ( gravity )

Posted using a mobile device.
HutchEmAll PM HutchEmAll
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 38673
 
HutchEmAll
Participation Meter
Legend
Posted: 3/29/2012 3:50:26 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by kaponofor3:




The question is was Zimmerman's belief of imminent death or great bodily injury reasonable?

Also, I have no idea how an autopsy would establish that the two were struggling for the gun? Please elaborate.

Bingo.  From what I've heard so FAR, it appears to me that it's going to be tough to prove that Zimmerman just set out to shoot and kill him.

Zimmerman's story appears to make sense....he backed off....Martin came up to him and threatened him.....they started fighting.....Zimmerman was on his back (his jacket was wet and had grass on the ground) and he also had injuries (to what extent, I don't think the public knows).  Yes, there was yelling that stopped after the shot, but Zimmerman could explain that by saying he stop yelling for help because Martin was no longer a threat.  

Bottom line is IMO is that Zimmerman is going to be able to come up with an story that will explain all the evidence.  Whether it's the truth or not is going to be AWFULLY hard to determine. 

So the story seems to be at least plausible.  Whether Zimmerman is embellishing so far is pretty hard to know.  

The crux of the matter IMO is going to be getting at the heart of the reason why Zimmerman decided he was justified in pulling out his gun and shooting Martin.  And even here, Zimmerman can make something up if needed to make the threat seem worse than maybe it was.

Nightmare case to prosecute based on what I've seen so far.


bowlslit PM bowlslit
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5625
 
bowlslit
Participation Meter
Banned
Posted: 3/29/2012 4:02:15 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by HutchEmAll:


Bingo.  From what I've heard so FAR, it appears to me that it's going to be tough to prove that Zimmerman just set out to shoot and kill him.

Zimmerman's story appears to make sense....he backed off....Martin came up to him and threatened him.....they started fighting.....Zimmerman was on his back (his jacket was wet and had grass on the ground) and he also had injuries (to what extent, I don't think the public knows).  Yes, there was yelling that stopped after the shot, but Zimmerman could explain that by saying he stop yelling for help because Martin was no longer a threat.  

Bottom line is IMO is that Zimmerman is going to be able to come up with an story that will explain all the evidence.  Whether it's the truth or not is going to be AWFULLY hard to determine. 

So the story seems to be at least plausible.  Whether Zimmerman is embellishing so far is pretty hard to know.  

The crux of the matter IMO is going to be getting at the heart of the reason why Zimmerman decided he was justified in pulling out his gun and shooting Martin.  And even here, Zimmerman can make something up if needed to make the threat seem worse than maybe it was.

Nightmare case to prosecute based on what I've seen so far.


Finally some common sense!

canovsp PM canovsp
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5720
 
canovsp
Participation Meter
Captain
Posted: 3/29/2012 4:10:37 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:


And that is the irony here...

If you think a GRAINY (and possibly edited) still photo from a video "clearly" shows something, your bias is evident.


I like Disco's fire. He's from the Johnnie Cochran school of investigating. One day tell the jury there is no evidence and the next day tell the jury the evidence was planted.
MoneySRH PM MoneySRH
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 8315
 
MoneySRH
Participation Meter
Captain
Posted: 3/29/2012 4:16:01 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:

Finally some common sense!



Republicans continue to side with Zimmerman’s fictional account.
1. That’s the CNN cleaned up audio doesn’t clearly say person.
2. That he stopped following Martin and doesn’t need to follow the dispatchers orders.
3. That Martin did actually disappear and attacked Zimmerman like a horror film.
4. That witnesses heard Zimmerman screaming for help. When that doesn’t matter because all that matters is how the confrontation started.
5. That the 911 tape doesn’t matter, the police and DA handled the case properly and if he were guilty, the white cops and white DA would have arrested him by now.

Independents and Democrats version of what happened.
1. Zimmerman himself said Martin was running towards the back entrance.
2. Zimmerman says he is following Martin on the 911 call.
3. Zimmerman says Martin magically disappeared or lost sight of an allegedly dangerous person?
4. Martin’s girlfriend was one the phone with him before Martin was approached by Zimmerman and said Zimmerman asked Martin “what he was doing there?”
5. The cop put on his report HOMICIDE–NEGLIG-MANSL–UNESSESSARY KILLING TO PREVENT UNLAWFUL ACT

The continued protestation and repudiation of the evidence by callous republicans is no surprise.

bowlslit PM bowlslit
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5625
 
bowlslit
Participation Meter
Banned
Posted: 3/29/2012 4:35:36 PM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by MoneySRH:



Republicans continue to side with Zimmerman’s fictional account.
1. That’s the CNN cleaned up audio doesn’t clearly say person.
2. That he stopped following Martin and doesn’t need to follow the dispatchers orders.
3. That Martin did actually disappear and attacked Zimmerman like a horror film.
4. That witnesses heard Zimmerman screaming for help. When that doesn’t matter because all that matters is how the confrontation started.
5. That the 911 tape doesn’t matter, the police and DA handled the case properly and if he were guilty, the white cops and white DA would have arrested him by now.

Independents and Democrats version of what happened.
1. Zimmerman himself said Martin was running towards the back entrance.
2. Zimmerman says he is following Martin on the 911 call.
3. Zimmerman says Martin magically disappeared or lost sight of an allegedly dangerous person?
4. Martin’s girlfriend was one the phone with him before Martin was approached by Zimmerman and said Zimmerman asked Martin “what he was doing there?”
5. The cop put on his report HOMICIDE–NEGLIG-MANSL–UNESSESSARY KILLING TO PREVENT UNLAWFUL ACT

The continued protestation and repudiation of the evidence by callous republicans is no surprise.

You ignore material info and hang on to the friggin back entrance which holds no bearing on the case.

I haven't seen one other person talk about the friggin back door as much as you. WHY?

bowlslit PM bowlslit
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5625
 
bowlslit
Participation Meter
Banned
Posted: 3/29/2012 4:38:10 PM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by MoneySRH:



Republicans continue to side with Zimmerman’s fictional account.
1. That’s the CNN cleaned up audio doesn’t clearly say person.
2. That he stopped following Martin and doesn’t need to follow the dispatchers orders.
3. That Martin did actually disappear and attacked Zimmerman like a horror film.
4. That witnesses heard Zimmerman screaming for help. When that doesn’t matter because all that matters is how the confrontation started.
5. That the 911 tape doesn’t matter, the police and DA handled the case properly and if he were guilty, the white cops and white DA would have arrested him by now.

Independents and Democrats version of what happened.
1. Zimmerman himself said Martin was running towards the back entrance.
2. Zimmerman says he is following Martin on the 911 call.
3. Zimmerman says Martin magically disappeared or lost sight of an allegedly dangerous person?
4. Martin’s girlfriend was one the phone with him before Martin was approached by Zimmerman and said Zimmerman asked Martin “what he was doing there?”
5. The cop put on his report HOMICIDE–NEGLIG-MANSL–UNESSESSARY KILLING TO PREVENT UNLAWFUL ACT

The continued protestation and repudiation of the evidence by callous republicans is no surprise.

Furhtermore, Hutchemall is no Republican or conservative.

cashin PM cashin
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 12718
 
cashin
Participation Meter
All-Star
Posted: 3/29/2012 4:53:19 PM

And that's partly why the "stand your ground" laws are bullshit as far as I'm concerned. There should have been an arrest & jury trial in this case even with those statutes imo. Hopefully, there still will be - will be a difficult case on both sides, but everything needs to come to light here under oath & let a jury decide. The known facts alone obviously do not tell the whole story...

 

 

bowlslit PM bowlslit
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5625
 
bowlslit
Participation Meter
Banned
Posted: 3/29/2012 5:06:57 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by cashin:

And that's partly why the "stand your ground" laws are bullshit as far as I'm concerned. There should have been an arrest & jury trial in this case even with those statutes imo. Hopefully, there still will be - will be a difficult case on both sides, but everything needs to come to light here under oath & let a jury decide. The known facts alone obviously do not tell the whole story...

 

 

We don't arrest people and put them before a jury just to find out if they are guilty or not. Thank goodness.

Look at Casey Anthony case. Jury got that 110% WRONG

bowlslit PM bowlslit
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5625
 
bowlslit
Participation Meter
Banned
Posted: 3/29/2012 5:08:23 PM
Besides, I don't even think a grand jury would allow this case to go to trial. Especially since the prosecutor doesn't think there is enough evidence to convict Z of manslaughter.
Forum: Politics Page 1 of 20  1 2 3 4 5   »
You have entered the forum as a GUEST. 
You must login/register to post or reply.