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Author: [Politics] Topic: Taxes and Economic Theory
canovsp
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#1
Posted: 3/8/2012 4:44:27 PM

This question is for the liberals on this site: If we were to raise taxes on the rich tomorrow would it end there? I don’t think it would. The govt would keep frivolously spending the new found money and after a while they would have to raise taxes again. This is why raising taxes isn’t the solution. Cutting spending is the solution. If we cut spending tomorrow we will still get the taxes we are getting today.

I’ve arrived at the conclusion that the fiscally liberal people in this forum, and everywhere else in the country for that matter, are strictly for taxing rich people because of social justice. It goes something like this: “You have stuff that I don’t have so you shouldn’t have that stuff either.” We have all heard the term before “Deficits and the debt doesn’t matter.” If that is the case then why tax rich people more?

The reason I say that is this. There is no way anyone could possibly think that taxing rich people will help the debt. It won’t put a dent in it. So let’s eliminate that thought.

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canovsp
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#2
Posted: 3/8/2012 4:45:38 PM

Having the government run something is a disaster: Social Security, Medicare, Amtrak, Post Office, Welfare. Most recently we had the stimulus (unemployment is worse), Solyndra, auto bailout, etc. Obamacare is going to be a nightmare once it is implemented.

If a private sector company was this incompetent they would go out of business. That is why they make budgets, trim wasteful spending, and maximize their profit. Individuals risk their own money in the private sector (except when you get a govt bailout). The government risks other people’s money. They have no incentive to make a budget or trim wasteful spending. Their answer is to tax the rich more. And when they start spending more and more their answer is to tax the rich again.

I can tell a lot of you are smart. I’m sure a lot of the President’s administration, him as well, could go on Jeopardy and kick behind. I’m being sincere. No patronizing. Why, in my opinion, are you guys lacking in this economic theory? I think the reaason is social justice.

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#3
Posted: 3/8/2012 4:57:09 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I think we need to have both right now -- new taxes and significant spending cuts. It would get us closer to our break even point faster, which is really the goal. Once we get there we can work on further reducing our obligations to help alleviated the overall tax burden on the populace.
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canovsp
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#4
Posted: 3/8/2012 5:19:25 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by kaponofor3:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I think we need to have both right now -- new taxes and significant spending cuts. It would get us closer to our break even point faster, which is really the goal. Once we get there we can work on further reducing our obligations to help alleviated the overall tax burden on the populace.

That is the goal. If the govt could get a balanced budget started and tell us "this is what we need to cut and this is what we need to raise taxes to then I am for that." Just blindly raising taxes on the rich won't do anything.
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#5
Posted: 3/8/2012 5:23:40 PM

Look at the budget, and tell me SPECIFICALLY what you would cut, and what that would amount to.

How about just FAIR taxes on the rich and corporations?  How about FAIR taxes on religious organizations?

Lets start there.  Fair taxes (defined as paying equal share) is not raising taxes.

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#6
Posted: 3/8/2012 5:25:57 PM

And BTW - its great to think that the "free market' will take care of deregulation of everything.  But it doesnt work.  People dont behave well when there are no rules. 

This is short term thinking for long term humanity.

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#7
Posted: 3/8/2012 5:50:43 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by vanzack:

Look at the budget, and tell me SPECIFICALLY what you would cut, and what that would amount to.

How about just FAIR taxes on the rich and corporations?  How about FAIR taxes on religious organizations?

Lets start there.  Fair taxes (defined as paying equal share) is not raising taxes.




Significant reduction in spending can really only be attained if you cut (pretty significantly) from the defense budget, Social Security, and Medicare, which I believe are by far the three largest federal obligations. People don't want to acknowledge this reality but the numbers don't lie.

How would you define "fair" taxes Van?
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#8
Posted: 3/8/2012 5:53:02 PM
And isn't the amount of "fair" taxes, no matter how you determine it, as a whole set in large part based upon the debts of the government and the money they need to expend to keep the beast running? Why not reduce the tax burden on everyone but having some real discussions about significantly reducing spending in those three areas previously listed.
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canovsp
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#9
Posted: 3/8/2012 5:57:34 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by vanzack:

Look at the budget, and tell me SPECIFICALLY what you would cut, and what that would amount to.

How about just FAIR taxes on the rich and corporations?  How about FAIR taxes on religious organizations?

Lets start there.  Fair taxes (defined as paying equal share) is not raising taxes.


Start off by cutting EVERYTHING a little bit (maybe 1%).
Let's see where we are.
Then have financial experts look into areas where more could be
 cut: defense, entitlements, education, infrastructure, etc.
 Basically, areas where children don't have to starve or granny
 doesn't have to get pushed over a cliff.
Once we reach that point then we can see how much tax revenue
 we have to bring in to balance the budget.
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#10
Posted: 3/8/2012 6:13:14 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by vanzack:

And BTW - its great to think that the "free market' will take care of deregulation of everything.  But it doesnt work.  People dont behave well when there are no rules. 



no doubt the last few years have proven this.  fuckin financial institutions went nuts with deregulation. 
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canovsp
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#11
Posted: 3/8/2012 6:32:46 PM
The difference between liberals and conservatives is this and there ain't no getting 'round it: Liberals assume money generated by individuals and businesses belongs to the govt and the govt allows individuals and businesses to keep some. Conservatives assume money generated by individuals and businesses belongs to them and they give some back to the govt in the form of taxes.

Liberals will sometimes make the argument that because businesses and even religion (Check out Van's 218 reasons to vote for Obama) use govt services (I assume highway, water, etc) then they should pay taxes for that. Someone is already paying for those services. Who are the people paying for those services?
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#12
Posted: 3/8/2012 8:15:49 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by vanzack:

And BTW - its great to think that the "free market' will take care of deregulation of everything.  But it doesnt work.  People dont behave well when there are no rules. 

This is short term thinking for long term humanity.



Name me two rules that we currently have in place, that keep you, vanzack, from harming society.  You claim that without rules, you would behave badly, so it should be easy to list two laws that protect me from your potential bad behaviour
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#13
Posted: 3/8/2012 8:29:43 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by vanzack:

And BTW - its great to think that the "free market' will take care of deregulation of everything.  But it doesnt work.  People dont behave well when there are no rules. 

This is short term thinking for long term humanity.


Simple concept that seems to fly over the heads of many.

I point most of the ills we are dealing with directly at the corporations including our current political quagmire.

Government is an easy target, very general and simplistic, but when you find out WHY government is flawed you can usually trace it back to money and corruption..political influence purchased by what groups?

The money and power is held by one group and that group holds the power and control.

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#14
Posted: 3/8/2012 8:30:24 PM

interest or national debt service is one of the largest budget items and growing at an exponential pace

why do we keep deficit spending

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#15
Posted: 3/8/2012 8:37:26 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by rooster010:

interest or national debt service is one of the largest budget items and growing at an exponential pace

why do we keep deficit spending



Easy fix for that. Just roll the debt over at 0% interest







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#16
Posted: 3/8/2012 8:40:52 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:


Simple concept that seems to fly over the heads of many.

I point most of the ills we are dealing with directly at the corporations including our current political quagmire.

Government is an easy target, very general and simplistic, but when you find out WHY government is flawed you can usually trace it back to money and corruption..political influence purchased by what groups?

The money and power is held by one group and that group holds the power and control.



Maybe i'm just stoned as a kite, but i think i agree with what you are saying here. So, what next?
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#17
Posted: 3/8/2012 8:46:50 PM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by be easy:



Easy fix for that. Just roll the debt over at 0% interest







welcome to fantasy island

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#18
Posted: 3/8/2012 9:00:54 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by be easy:



Maybe i'm just stoned as a kite, but i think i agree with what you are saying here. So, what next?

Sober up..this has to be a mistake.

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#19
Posted: 3/9/2012 1:17:40 AM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by ClubDirt:



no doubt the last few years have proven this.  fuckin financial institutions went nuts with deregulation. 

I doubt it was deregulation as much as you think.

Watch the whole thing...you may just leave your party after seeing this.

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#20
Posted: 3/9/2012 2:09:06 AM
Agree with alot of stuff here by all you guys & wish we could just piecemeal some of it together but with the almost childish, divisive partisanship these days, it's akin to impossible. Beyond that, some of the complexity that BE is always talkin about would limit the major good stuff from happenin (at least anytime soon) even if they could or would get together on some structural legislation which is likely to never happen anyway. Too much money, power & prestige in play & moreso nowadays than ever - on both sides.
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#21
Posted: 3/9/2012 2:30:17 AM
Well lets look back at the golden Clinton years. Taxes was way higher back then, but the fiscal house was in order.
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#22
Posted: 3/9/2012 2:54:08 AM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by Mikael99:

Well lets look back at the golden Clinton years. Taxes was way higher back then, but the fiscal house was in order.

 

Good point & of course the 'pubs like to give credit to Newt & the repub controlled congress. And if that's seen thru, then it's the high tech bubble which at least has some credibility. Truth is taxes wouldn't need to be raised if all the loopholes & havens for large corps (& the super wealthy) were eliminated along with some major deductions. But that's not likely to happen so it's insane for all these huge, line-in-the-sand philosophical arguments to be going on about just going back to Clinton rates on only over $250K or $1M while the repubs scream about the debt. Like Kapono said, we need both - major cuts in spending & higher taxes on the wealthiest & Obama shouldn't need to be talking about what is "fair" or using the term, "fair share".

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#23
Posted: 3/9/2012 2:57:58 AM

Lets close loopholes for corporations AND people that don't pay taxes should not get returns. I'm talking people that don't make enough to pay taxes but maybe have alot of kids or something that would allow them to get a significant return.

Is that fair?

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#24
Posted: 3/9/2012 7:05:25 AM
there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to fix this at the federal level

do a majority of the people demand we pay down our debt and stop playing federal santa claus? no chance

secession is the answer
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#25
Posted: 3/9/2012 7:21:42 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by canovsp:

Having the government run something is a disaster: Social Security, Medicare, Amtrak, Post Office, Welfare. Most recently we had the stimulus (unemployment is worse), Solyndra, auto bailout, etc. Obamacare is going to be a nightmare once it is implemented.

If a private sector company was this incompetent they would go out of business. That is why they make budgets, trim wasteful spending, and maximize their profit. Individuals risk their own money in the private sector (except when you get a govt bailout). The government risks other people’s money. They have no incentive to make a budget or trim wasteful spending. Their answer is to tax the rich more. And when they start spending more and more their answer is to tax the rich again.

I can tell a lot of you are smart. I’m sure a lot of the President’s administration, him as well, could go on Jeopardy and kick behind. I’m being sincere. No patronizing. Why, in my opinion, are you guys lacking in this economic theory? I think the reaason is social justice.


For some reason this doesn't seem completely true to me. 
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