explain how Obama's economic plan will help spur our economy?
I truly want to know. I am a fiscal conservative to the core, but am always open to new and interesting ideas, but I didn't see it when I read Obama's plan.
It is idealistic and will drive our economy into the ground.
Economies succeed (both nationally and internationally) when there is less regulation and less taxation which creates innovation and freedom. And, please don't tell me about our economy now. The markets are cyclical. Always have been, always will be.
When people rely on governments for answers, your country goes backwards. Just look at Latin America.
And, another topic, redistribution of wealth is disturbing and nobody should endorse it unless you are lazy and can't get out and do something on your own in this great country. I work 50 hours a week and am currently getting my Masters in Finance and CFA. Yeah, it sucks now and I can't sit on the couch and watch as much tv as some people, but I'll be rewarded in the end. I put the time and work in so please don't touch my hard earned money more than you already do.
If Obama's plan is executed to the T, we are in trouble. Yes, the middle class will have less taxes, but they will also have less jobs because corporate profits will be driven into the ground. Let's just hope he learns from people like Emanuel who have learned in the past what happens if you try to take this country too far left.
I will be on the edge of my seat for his Cabinet appointments as they will be vital to the direction of our country.
Sorry for the rant. Love to hear any responses. And, I'l just listen. I don't argue politics. It gets you nowhere, but I feel as if people can learn from other opinions that are out there.
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To remove first post, remove entire topic.
explain how Obama's economic plan will help spur our economy?
I truly want to know. I am a fiscal conservative to the core, but am always open to new and interesting ideas, but I didn't see it when I read Obama's plan.
It is idealistic and will drive our economy into the ground.
Economies succeed (both nationally and internationally) when there is less regulation and less taxation which creates innovation and freedom. And, please don't tell me about our economy now. The markets are cyclical. Always have been, always will be.
When people rely on governments for answers, your country goes backwards. Just look at Latin America.
And, another topic, redistribution of wealth is disturbing and nobody should endorse it unless you are lazy and can't get out and do something on your own in this great country. I work 50 hours a week and am currently getting my Masters in Finance and CFA. Yeah, it sucks now and I can't sit on the couch and watch as much tv as some people, but I'll be rewarded in the end. I put the time and work in so please don't touch my hard earned money more than you already do.
If Obama's plan is executed to the T, we are in trouble. Yes, the middle class will have less taxes, but they will also have less jobs because corporate profits will be driven into the ground. Let's just hope he learns from people like Emanuel who have learned in the past what happens if you try to take this country too far left.
I will be on the edge of my seat for his Cabinet appointments as they will be vital to the direction of our country.
Sorry for the rant. Love to hear any responses. And, I'l just listen. I don't argue politics. It gets you nowhere, but I feel as if people can learn from other opinions that are out there.
Stuck, your late to the party. You answer your own question, can't raise taxes in a recession. i know after paying income taxes and everything else they rob from your check, then you spend the money you hhave left for goods here in PA at 6% tax, you are lucky if you are allowed to spend .50 cents of every dollar you earn. People can't afford to pay anymore taxes, and especially not into a govt that mismanages everything they do already. I had a post " We can't be this stupid" about the state of social security for example. Medicare
We shouldn't be turning to the gov't for answers, because they can't solve our problems. People need to quit spending so far beyond their means.
People refer to the economy now from the simple mans view as being in the tank, when it just returned to where itt was 10 years ago, we just thrived in the last 8 years like crazy.
Problem with all these discussions is, IT DOESN'T MATTER. We can't learn from past mistakes. Look at Japan, we should of used them as an expample of what not to do. The Housing Bubble will burst regaurdless of how hard our gov't tries to prevent it, by throwing bad money down the endless pit that is our rat hole. Greenspan screwed us by making credit Easier to obtain by lowering interest rates, when he should of been raising them. MODERATION.
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Stuck, your late to the party. You answer your own question, can't raise taxes in a recession. i know after paying income taxes and everything else they rob from your check, then you spend the money you hhave left for goods here in PA at 6% tax, you are lucky if you are allowed to spend .50 cents of every dollar you earn. People can't afford to pay anymore taxes, and especially not into a govt that mismanages everything they do already. I had a post " We can't be this stupid" about the state of social security for example. Medicare
We shouldn't be turning to the gov't for answers, because they can't solve our problems. People need to quit spending so far beyond their means.
People refer to the economy now from the simple mans view as being in the tank, when it just returned to where itt was 10 years ago, we just thrived in the last 8 years like crazy.
Problem with all these discussions is, IT DOESN'T MATTER. We can't learn from past mistakes. Look at Japan, we should of used them as an expample of what not to do. The Housing Bubble will burst regaurdless of how hard our gov't tries to prevent it, by throwing bad money down the endless pit that is our rat hole. Greenspan screwed us by making credit Easier to obtain by lowering interest rates, when he should of been raising them. MODERATION.
The following represents perceptions of the Housing Bubble and expectations for a Depression which were developed during 2005-2006 and have evolved with the financial crisis. It is the author’s opinion that this analysis reflects an accurate understanding of the underlying economic forces which created the current financial downturn and will continue to affect the economy through at minimum 2012. It is through an understanding of these forces that policy makers can craft suitable responses to the crisis, in defiance of political expediency, and act to ensure that similar self-inflicted injuries are not recreated.
An Inability to Recognize the Problems Created by the Housing Bubble
For the last three years economists, politicians and policy makers have been consistently surprised by declining housing values and resulting collateral damage to the economy.
As recently as 2005 these prognosticators perceived residential real estate to be a safe asset class that would not decline nationally. As problems within the housing market emerged and foreclosures began increasing, policy makers stated emphatically that disruptions would be restricted to subprime mortgages. The credit market dislocation of August 2007 was interpreted by these parties as a one-time and temporary event. Further disruptions to the global financial markets accompanying the Bear Stearns collapse, were supposedly averted by a government bailout. Politicians overtly used Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac in a misguided attempt to prop up the faltering housing market despite dangerous leverage and declining fundamentals. Government sponsored interest rate cuts, stimulus checks, liquidity injections and bailouts have been implemented with the intent to solve economic problems as they emerged and deepened.
In short, politicians and government policy enthusiasts have consistently failed to predict, correctly interpret or fully understand our evolving economic crisis. Oblivious to their lack of understanding, calls for further intervention, stimulus, bailouts and price manipulation continue to proliferate. Most of these efforts are unwise, unlikely to result in positive outcomes and have the potential to exacerbate current economic distress.
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The following represents perceptions of the Housing Bubble and expectations for a Depression which were developed during 2005-2006 and have evolved with the financial crisis. It is the author’s opinion that this analysis reflects an accurate understanding of the underlying economic forces which created the current financial downturn and will continue to affect the economy through at minimum 2012. It is through an understanding of these forces that policy makers can craft suitable responses to the crisis, in defiance of political expediency, and act to ensure that similar self-inflicted injuries are not recreated.
An Inability to Recognize the Problems Created by the Housing Bubble
For the last three years economists, politicians and policy makers have been consistently surprised by declining housing values and resulting collateral damage to the economy.
As recently as 2005 these prognosticators perceived residential real estate to be a safe asset class that would not decline nationally. As problems within the housing market emerged and foreclosures began increasing, policy makers stated emphatically that disruptions would be restricted to subprime mortgages. The credit market dislocation of August 2007 was interpreted by these parties as a one-time and temporary event. Further disruptions to the global financial markets accompanying the Bear Stearns collapse, were supposedly averted by a government bailout. Politicians overtly used Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac in a misguided attempt to prop up the faltering housing market despite dangerous leverage and declining fundamentals. Government sponsored interest rate cuts, stimulus checks, liquidity injections and bailouts have been implemented with the intent to solve economic problems as they emerged and deepened.
In short, politicians and government policy enthusiasts have consistently failed to predict, correctly interpret or fully understand our evolving economic crisis. Oblivious to their lack of understanding, calls for further intervention, stimulus, bailouts and price manipulation continue to proliferate. Most of these efforts are unwise, unlikely to result in positive outcomes and have the potential to exacerbate current economic distress.
Irrespective of government efforts to fight a growing laundry list of financial calamities, the real challenge facing our economy is that houses remain dramatically overpriced relative to the fundamentals that determine value. Unsustainable housing values are rarely credited as the source of recent economic volatility. More dramatic events including the collapse of the dollar, falling real estate prices, rising foreclosures, increased inflation, record oil prices, company failures, credit market disruptions, rising unemployment and the stock market collapse have tended to dominate the economic consciousness of the media and attracted the focus of policy makers.
These gyrations, although dramatic and painful, are not independent events nor or they the cause of our economic decent. Such events are the manifest symptoms of the fundamental problem of overvalued housing. The only realistic solution is for home prices to fall until they reach a sustainable equilibrium.
There is nothing inherently wrong with falling housing values. In fact, a lot of good comes from such asset price declines. Young people, individuals of limited means, those who have demonstrated fiscal responsibility, savers and future generations of potential homeowners all benefit from dropping housing prices. It is an interesting phenomenon that so little attention was paid to this group directly harmed by rising home prices and that a similar lack of interest is directed towards their benefit as prices fall.
The economic pain presently being experienced is the result of excessive debt that was attached to homes as prices rose nationally for a decade. These excessive debt levels were used as a means by which to purchase increasingly expensive housing, monetize paper equity gains and to leverage investment returns as property values rose steadily. Now that property values are falling, the leverage is having a sharply negative impact on the economy. Debt remains while the value of recently purchased houses has fallen and theoretical equity gains have evaporated. Leverage is especially painful when asset values decline as equity is destroyed at a rate that is magnified by the ratio of debt. This phenomenon is prevalent in an environment where little or no capital was necessary to buy houses in recent years. An increasingly large percentage of home owners now owe more money on their mortgages than the value of the underlying property. The level of homeowner equity relative to mortgage debt in the United States is at a record low and falling.
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The Real Problem
Irrespective of government efforts to fight a growing laundry list of financial calamities, the real challenge facing our economy is that houses remain dramatically overpriced relative to the fundamentals that determine value. Unsustainable housing values are rarely credited as the source of recent economic volatility. More dramatic events including the collapse of the dollar, falling real estate prices, rising foreclosures, increased inflation, record oil prices, company failures, credit market disruptions, rising unemployment and the stock market collapse have tended to dominate the economic consciousness of the media and attracted the focus of policy makers.
These gyrations, although dramatic and painful, are not independent events nor or they the cause of our economic decent. Such events are the manifest symptoms of the fundamental problem of overvalued housing. The only realistic solution is for home prices to fall until they reach a sustainable equilibrium.
There is nothing inherently wrong with falling housing values. In fact, a lot of good comes from such asset price declines. Young people, individuals of limited means, those who have demonstrated fiscal responsibility, savers and future generations of potential homeowners all benefit from dropping housing prices. It is an interesting phenomenon that so little attention was paid to this group directly harmed by rising home prices and that a similar lack of interest is directed towards their benefit as prices fall.
The economic pain presently being experienced is the result of excessive debt that was attached to homes as prices rose nationally for a decade. These excessive debt levels were used as a means by which to purchase increasingly expensive housing, monetize paper equity gains and to leverage investment returns as property values rose steadily. Now that property values are falling, the leverage is having a sharply negative impact on the economy. Debt remains while the value of recently purchased houses has fallen and theoretical equity gains have evaporated. Leverage is especially painful when asset values decline as equity is destroyed at a rate that is magnified by the ratio of debt. This phenomenon is prevalent in an environment where little or no capital was necessary to buy houses in recent years. An increasingly large percentage of home owners now owe more money on their mortgages than the value of the underlying property. The level of homeowner equity relative to mortgage debt in the United States is at a record low and falling.
The decade of rising prices also materially distorted economic activity. Homeownership rates ranged between 65% and 70% during the boom. There has never been an asset class, much less an asset bubble, which directly impacted such a high percentage or large number of Americans. The direct and indirect wealth effects derived from rapidly rising equity values had a dramatic impact on the economy due to this high rate of ownership. Consumer spending and the national savings rate were dramatically distorted. Now that housing prices have stopped rising, the economy has been deprived of this sizeable, recurring and growing source of consumer spending.
The incremental consumption from rising home values, home equity loans and windfall gains on house sales is gone while the debt attributed to overvalued housing prices remains, must be serviced and repaid. The implications for consumer spending, unemployment and the economy are unavoidable.
Declining home prices impact the majority of our economy. Recent economic events are the painful symptoms of the resolution of this overvaluation problem. The more quickly prices can return to fundamentally sustainable levels the better. Regrettably, the slow moving housing market, compounded by the extraordinary amount of leverage which we have attached to overvalued houses, will inflict unavoidable economic pain that is unlikely to subside for years.
Government efforts have been directed at muting the impact of these symptoms. Some proposals have even attempted to prop up the falling house prices. A closer analysis and better understanding of the forces which created the Housing Bubble illustrates why such intervention can not work. If government intervention has the effect, either intentionally or unintentionally, of artificially propping up housing prices, such action will cause the economic impact of the inevitable correction to be more damaging.
i know it's a bunch of cut n paste, but it explains the root of the problem pretty well, and why arguing about taxes is nonsensical when we are nosediving towards the next Great depression
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The decade of rising prices also materially distorted economic activity. Homeownership rates ranged between 65% and 70% during the boom. There has never been an asset class, much less an asset bubble, which directly impacted such a high percentage or large number of Americans. The direct and indirect wealth effects derived from rapidly rising equity values had a dramatic impact on the economy due to this high rate of ownership. Consumer spending and the national savings rate were dramatically distorted. Now that housing prices have stopped rising, the economy has been deprived of this sizeable, recurring and growing source of consumer spending.
The incremental consumption from rising home values, home equity loans and windfall gains on house sales is gone while the debt attributed to overvalued housing prices remains, must be serviced and repaid. The implications for consumer spending, unemployment and the economy are unavoidable.
Declining home prices impact the majority of our economy. Recent economic events are the painful symptoms of the resolution of this overvaluation problem. The more quickly prices can return to fundamentally sustainable levels the better. Regrettably, the slow moving housing market, compounded by the extraordinary amount of leverage which we have attached to overvalued houses, will inflict unavoidable economic pain that is unlikely to subside for years.
Government efforts have been directed at muting the impact of these symptoms. Some proposals have even attempted to prop up the falling house prices. A closer analysis and better understanding of the forces which created the Housing Bubble illustrates why such intervention can not work. If government intervention has the effect, either intentionally or unintentionally, of artificially propping up housing prices, such action will cause the economic impact of the inevitable correction to be more damaging.
i know it's a bunch of cut n paste, but it explains the root of the problem pretty well, and why arguing about taxes is nonsensical when we are nosediving towards the next Great depression
This financial crisis wont be solved within 4 yrs...not even 8 yrs...dont you get it? The people who print money controls the govt. their agenda is to keep all the taxpayers living in debt. Wether Obama or McCain is president we're are all gonna pay out of our wallets. Obama may as well be the spark that ignites something of a new world order
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This financial crisis wont be solved within 4 yrs...not even 8 yrs...dont you get it? The people who print money controls the govt. their agenda is to keep all the taxpayers living in debt. Wether Obama or McCain is president we're are all gonna pay out of our wallets. Obama may as well be the spark that ignites something of a new world order
tax cuts for working people and the middle class tend to be spent on goods and services fueling the economy. tax cuts for the top 2% billionaires tends to sit in "investment accounts" and doesn't get into the retail economy.
just my opinion but it's obvious after the last two decades that "trickle down" just doesn't work.
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tax cuts for working people and the middle class tend to be spent on goods and services fueling the economy. tax cuts for the top 2% billionaires tends to sit in "investment accounts" and doesn't get into the retail economy.
just my opinion but it's obvious after the last two decades that "trickle down" just doesn't work.
tax cuts for working people and the middle class tend to be spent on goods and services fueling the economy. tax cuts for the top 2% billionaires tends to sit in "investment accounts" and doesn't get into the retail economy.
just my opinion but it's obvious after the last two decades that "trickle down" just doesn't work.
very well put my friend The trickle down theory has never ever worked and never will work. Its complete bs that has been scammed on the American people for years and years. So when you hear people talking about trickle down this and trickle down that, you can bet those people are at the top of the food chain and of course this helps them. If i was very rich, i would be promoting trickle down economics also, but truth is it doesnt help any regular folks.
Perfect example, when our govt sent out stimlus checks this year, why did they target the people with less money for those checks and not the super rich? Because the rich would have just put the checks under their mattresses and not back into the economy. Hell the administration by their own words said the checks were being mailed out in order to jum start the economy. Well that sure as hell sounds like trickle up economics to me, not trickle down.
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Quote Originally Posted by LeRinkRat:
tax cuts for working people and the middle class tend to be spent on goods and services fueling the economy. tax cuts for the top 2% billionaires tends to sit in "investment accounts" and doesn't get into the retail economy.
just my opinion but it's obvious after the last two decades that "trickle down" just doesn't work.
very well put my friend The trickle down theory has never ever worked and never will work. Its complete bs that has been scammed on the American people for years and years. So when you hear people talking about trickle down this and trickle down that, you can bet those people are at the top of the food chain and of course this helps them. If i was very rich, i would be promoting trickle down economics also, but truth is it doesnt help any regular folks.
Perfect example, when our govt sent out stimlus checks this year, why did they target the people with less money for those checks and not the super rich? Because the rich would have just put the checks under their mattresses and not back into the economy. Hell the administration by their own words said the checks were being mailed out in order to jum start the economy. Well that sure as hell sounds like trickle up economics to me, not trickle down.
1) It seems that it is very trendy and fashionable for everybody to call themselves a "Fiscal Conservative" these days. It's the new cool buzz word.
Fiscal Conservative simply means to cut spending. But in a business environment, which is more important..... cutting spending or selling more product?
2) In terms of Government spending, are you familiar with Keynesian economic theory? Not saying it is 100% true but at least have to be aware of the principles in play in order to get onto more advanced discussions.
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Okay, I'll add my two cents............
1) It seems that it is very trendy and fashionable for everybody to call themselves a "Fiscal Conservative" these days. It's the new cool buzz word.
Fiscal Conservative simply means to cut spending. But in a business environment, which is more important..... cutting spending or selling more product?
2) In terms of Government spending, are you familiar with Keynesian economic theory? Not saying it is 100% true but at least have to be aware of the principles in play in order to get onto more advanced discussions.
Instead of spending 2 years walking through the mechanics, I'll cut to the chase..............
We need to manufacture and sell more products.
If you look around your house and driveway, everything is made overseas. That's where the economy and true capitalists are.
The Chinese have remarketed themselves and are not called "socialists" anymore, they are now called "bankers"
perfectly put companies need to stop getting rewarded with tax cuts while still sending jobs overseas. We need to only give the tax cuts to companies who want to stay here in this country and use American workers to make their products
For way to long all the politicans have let this slide. Its time for them to step up to the plate and stop this crap.
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Quote Originally Posted by FriedShrimp:
Instead of spending 2 years walking through the mechanics, I'll cut to the chase..............
We need to manufacture and sell more products.
If you look around your house and driveway, everything is made overseas. That's where the economy and true capitalists are.
The Chinese have remarketed themselves and are not called "socialists" anymore, they are now called "bankers"
perfectly put companies need to stop getting rewarded with tax cuts while still sending jobs overseas. We need to only give the tax cuts to companies who want to stay here in this country and use American workers to make their products
For way to long all the politicans have let this slide. Its time for them to step up to the plate and stop this crap.
The good news is that we have a few skills but the bad news is we are losing ground....... we now have to compete with basically free Asian labor and, hate to break the news, but the Europeans are WAY smarter than we are.
On a side note on that. Of the 20 states that went McCain. I think all of them are below the National Average of Per Capita Income. The odds on that are 50% to the 20th power which is like
TEN MILLION TO ONE
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Like it or not, we are in a GLOBAL ECONOMY now.
The good news is that we have a few skills but the bad news is we are losing ground....... we now have to compete with basically free Asian labor and, hate to break the news, but the Europeans are WAY smarter than we are.
On a side note on that. Of the 20 states that went McCain. I think all of them are below the National Average of Per Capita Income. The odds on that are 50% to the 20th power which is like
This whole "conservative" bullshit is for little old ladies clipping coupons.
The OTHER thought for today is stop bitching about welfare. It is so IRRELEVANT it does not matter but instead of manufacturing and selling products, people bitch about welfare.
This will BLOW YOUR MIND but it's true. Look up Jimmy Carter's "Fiscal Numbers"........... Jimmy was throwing money in the streets like candy but it did not matter because the USA was NUMERO UNO in EVERY SINGLE WORLDWIDE ECONOMIC MEASURABLE CATEGORY at the time.
Largest Trade Surplus in the World Largest Creditor Nation in the World #1 in Per Capita Income #1 in Personal Productivity #1 in EVERYTHING ELSE........
But, he got messed with because he "appeared" weak with a hostage situation and he was kind of a soft spoken guy to begin with.
Does this remind anybody of the word "Distracted?"
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This whole "conservative" bullshit is for little old ladies clipping coupons.
The OTHER thought for today is stop bitching about welfare. It is so IRRELEVANT it does not matter but instead of manufacturing and selling products, people bitch about welfare.
This will BLOW YOUR MIND but it's true. Look up Jimmy Carter's "Fiscal Numbers"........... Jimmy was throwing money in the streets like candy but it did not matter because the USA was NUMERO UNO in EVERY SINGLE WORLDWIDE ECONOMIC MEASURABLE CATEGORY at the time.
Largest Trade Surplus in the World Largest Creditor Nation in the World #1 in Per Capita Income #1 in Personal Productivity #1 in EVERYTHING ELSE........
But, he got messed with because he "appeared" weak with a hostage situation and he was kind of a soft spoken guy to begin with.
Does this remind anybody of the word "Distracted?"
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