evolution vs creation debate

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Author: [General Discussion] Topic: evolution vs creation debate
Raiderpug PM Raiderpug
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Posted: 10/3/2016 4:17:36 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Rostos:


Funny this....if God doesnt exist, then the things you are complaining about in your post, ie, tortured, killed and terrorized are not wrong.

In the absence of God, there is no objective morality. If objective morality doesnt exist, then there is no moral rights and wrongs. Things like rape, torture, racism etc are not wrong. They are merely relative, which therefore doesn't make it wrong.

What ISIS do is not wrong, going around killing blacks because of there skin colour is not wrong etc etc.

Any time you make a claim to moral facts, ie, racism is wrong or murder is wrong, then you are effectively confirming objective morality, therefore affirming Gods existence.

Some believe that religion is necessary as a guide to a moral life. According to some, this idea has been with us for nearly 2,000 years. According to others, the idea goes back as far as 4,000 years, with the ancient Egyptians. There are various thoughts regarding how this idea has arisen. For example, Greg Epstein suggests that this idea is connected to a concerted effort by theists to question nonreligious ideas .



Secular morality provides a better guide for moral behavior than any religion.

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death." Albert Einstein 
nature1970 PM nature1970
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Posted: 10/3/2016 4:44:24 PM
We are the demons cast to earth with a chance at redemption. Earth without man would be better off.... woe onto earth and it's inhabitants for the devil and his angels have fallen there. Natural selection wasn't included with the passing of the passenger pigeon or the dod bird or a transalvanian wolf. If we measured morality based on animal behavior then we have truly evolved to the predominate life form killer and provider made. So why no other specie evolved to our capabilities. No fish no reptile no bird no amphibian or mammal walks. Thus as we watch a deer eaten alive by a pack of coyotes. They attack at the hind quarters and devour to the head. Reason most meat and the ability of the deer to escape rests within its hind legs. We sympathize not a natural response at the suffering the creature endured. Natural response would to be jealous that we didn't get first dibs. Love,compassion, empathy sympathy compassion are not natural survival of the fittest responses. They are irrational in comparison. Science math chemistry physics calculus astrology physics and biology together can not describe the reality of the dualities of human kind. Without describing a eternal battle of me vs we vs all of us.
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nature1970 PM nature1970
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Posted: 10/3/2016 5:03:27 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by nature1970:

We are the demons cast to earth with a chance at redemption. Earth without man would be better off.... woe onto earth and it's inhabitants for the devil and his angels have fallen there. Natural selection wasn't included with the passing of the passenger pigeon or the dod bird or a transalvanian wolf. If we measured morality based on animal behavior then we have truly evolved to the predominate life form killer and provider made. So why no other specie evolved to our capabilities. No fish no reptile no bird no amphibian or mammal walks. Thus as we watch a deer eaten alive by a pack of coyotes. They attack at the hind quarters and devour to the head. Reason most meat and the ability of the deer to escape rests within its hind legs. We sympathize not a natural response at the suffering the creature endured. Natural response would to be jealous that we didn't get first dibs. Love,compassion, empathy sympathy compassion are not natural survival of the fittest responses. They are irrational in comparison. Science math chemistry physics calculus astrology physics and biology together can not describe the reality of the dualities of human kind. Without describing a eternal battle of me vs we vs all of us.
only religion that hero was a man who knew how he was to die chose to die for the sake of all. Of that division only one religion sect believes all good humans will go to heaven.
Regardless of religion. If we perceived our universe as it is sub atomically and macro astrology a particle acts counter to gravity. In our universe this "God particle" pushes things away and can be described as exhibiting anti gravity as shown by the super collide in the alps.
Gravity two particles ate acting to each other is natural however a particle keeping the particles apart is indeed very unnatural.
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Rostos PM Rostos
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Posted: 10/3/2016 5:19:21 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Raiderpug:

Some believe that religion is necessary as a guide to a moral life. According to some, this idea has been with us for nearly 2,000 years. According to others, the idea goes back as far as 4,000 years, with the ancient Egyptians. There are various thoughts regarding how this idea has arisen. For example, Greg Epstein suggests that this idea is connected to a concerted effort by theists to question nonreligious ideas .



Secular morality provides a better guide for moral behavior than any religion.

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death." Albert Einstein 

Better? When you say better, you are already assuming a standard. But what standard is this? Without God, morality simply is relative, each person or culture determines what is right or wrong.

What ISIS do then is not factually wrong. The group of people who go around bashing black people because of there skin color, what they are doing is not factually wrong.

You dont realise, without God, there is no objective standard, if there is no objective standard, then it is incoherent to condemn moral acts.

The vert fact you condemn moral acts shows that you admit a higher moral standard exists outside human taste , preference and opinion.

Also, i never said non believers cannot know morality, rather, non believers cannot JUSTIFY it or provide a foundation for it.
Rostos PM Rostos
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Posted: 10/3/2016 5:20:59 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by thorpe:


You are just making up stuff now.  Why can't you be happy with your religion and leave science to the scientists? 

evolution across species "is nothing but an extrapolation and magnification of the events that take place WITHIN populations and species."

Harvard's longtime evolution expert Ernst Mayr
Raiderpug PM Raiderpug
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Posted: 10/3/2016 5:59:59 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Rostos:


Better? When you say better, you are already assuming a standard. But what standard is this? Without God, morality simply is relative, each person or culture determines what is right or wrong.

What ISIS do then is not factually wrong. The group of people who go around bashing black people because of there skin color, what they are doing is not factually wrong.

You dont realise, without God, there is no objective standard, if there is no objective standard, then it is incoherent to condemn moral acts.

The vert fact you condemn moral acts shows that you admit a higher moral standard exists outside human taste , preference and opinion.

Also, i never said non believers cannot know morality, rather, non believers cannot JUSTIFY it or provide a foundation for it.

Your stuck in the fallacy that morality (or we can use a different word- ethical behavior) cannot be separated from religion. The foundation you talk about can be seen in the secular Scandinavian countries that are the least violent and most educated in the world. That foundation is also present in other animals. Certain species of birds will give their own life for the survival of the others. 


Rostos PM Rostos
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Posted: 10/3/2016 6:38:52 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Raiderpug:


Your stuck in the fallacy that morality (or we can use a different word- ethical behavior) cannot be separated from religion. The foundation you talk about can be seen in the secular Scandinavian countries that are the least violent and most educated in the world. That foundation is also present in other animals. Certain species of birds will give their own life for the survival of the others. 



Thats all what morality is in the absence of God, it is merely the bi product of the socio evolutionary process to aid survival. It doesnt make it objective. The atheist is still stuck in morality being nothing but ILLUSORY.

"The position of the modern evolutionist … is that humans have an awareness of morality … because such an awareness is of biological worth. Morality is a biological adaptation no less than are hands and feet and teeth. …Considered as a rationally justifiable set of claims about an objective something, ethics is illusory. I appreciate that when somebody says ‘Love thy neighbor as thyself,’ they think they are referring above and beyond themselves. … Nevertheless, … such reference is truly without foundation. Morality is just an aid to survival and reproduction, … and any deeper meaning is illusory"

Atheist philosopher - Michael Ruse

Therefore things like rape, racism and murder are not factually wrong. To claim so is merely an illusion.

You dont seem to realise that in the absence of God, morality is nothing but a man made construct, it isnt factual. 

You cant ground morality because it is merely a man made concept.

ISIS deem it is right to cut peoples heads off, you and others may claim it is wrong. Who is right or wrong? In the absence of an independent arbitrator, no one is right or wrong. 


Raiderpug PM Raiderpug
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Posted: 10/3/2016 8:05:07 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Rostos:


Thats all what morality is in the absence of God, it is merely the bi product of the socio evolutionary process to aid survival. It doesnt make it objective. The atheist is still stuck in morality being nothing but ILLUSORY.

"The position of the modern evolutionist … is that humans have an awareness of morality … because such an awareness is of biological worth. Morality is a biological adaptation no less than are hands and feet and teeth. …Considered as a rationally justifiable set of claims about an objective something, ethics is illusory. I appreciate that when somebody says ‘Love thy neighbor as thyself,’ they think they are referring above and beyond themselves. … Nevertheless, … such reference is truly without foundation. Morality is just an aid to survival and reproduction, … and any deeper meaning is illusory"

Atheist philosopher - Michael Ruse

Therefore things like rape, racism and murder are not factually wrong. To claim so is merely an illusion.

You dont seem to realise that in the absence of God, morality is nothing but a man made construct, it isnt factual. 

You cant ground morality because it is merely a man made concept.

ISIS deem it is right to cut peoples heads off, you and others may claim it is wrong. Who is right or wrong? In the absence of an independent arbitrator, no one is right or wrong. 


We don't hurt or kill people at random because of empathy. Not because someone is told it's not a good thing. 
 
ISIS is an apocalyptic cult. All cards off the table with the crazy people.
searchwarrant PM searchwarrant
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Posted: 10/3/2016 8:21:30 PM
During the 14th century there was this disease spreading across Europe known as Black Death or Plague, maybe you've heard of it. window.post_1475539748804_19 = function(win,msg){ win.postMessage(msg,"*"); }window.post_1475539753666_40 = function(win,msg){ win.postMessage(msg,"*"); }

600 people a day were dying and they blamed it on sinners, person, gamblers and hookers. So they turned into savages and killed those people by setting them on fire or beheading them. (birth of Geurilla warfare). God was punishing all humans according to their God logic. 
None of it worked. Black Death went on to wax half the population of Europe until almost everybody was dead. The microbe simply ran out of hosts.
Get it?
Rostos PM Rostos
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Posted: 10/3/2016 8:53:37 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Raiderpug:

We don't hurt or kill people at random because of empathy. Not because someone is told it's not a good thing. 
 
ISIS is an apocalyptic cult. All cards off the table with the crazy people.

What do you mean because of empathy? Am i OBLIGATED to act with empathy? Who puts this obligation on me or anyone? Have i done anything factually wrong if i dont act with empathy?

Empathy is the bi product of the evolutionary process, but so is diseases and extinctions.

The reality is, the atheist cannot ground morality outside there own opinion/preference and desire. That makes it nothing more than subjective/relative.

Rape, murder and racism are neither right or wrong. Condemning moral acts are incoherent.

Remember the next time ISIS perform an act like cutting peoples heads off....look at you reaction, will it be "well, they think its right, i dont, but neither of us are right or wrong"...Or will you say, "i dont care what anyones opinion is, there actions are factually wrong".
Rostos PM Rostos
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Posted: 10/3/2016 8:57:35 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by searchwarrant:

During the 14th century there was this disease spreading across Europe known as Black Death or Plague, maybe you've heard of it. window.post_1475539748804_19 = function(win,msg){ win.postMessage(msg,"*"); }window.post_1475539753666_40 = function(win,msg){ win.postMessage(msg,"*"); }

600 people a day were dying and they blamed it on sinners, person, gamblers and hookers. So they turned into savages and killed those people by setting them on fire or beheading them. (birth of Geurilla warfare). God was punishing all humans according to their God logic. 
None of it worked. Black Death went on to wax half the population of Europe until almost everybody was dead. The microbe simply ran out of hosts.
Get it?

If God doesnt exist, then is savaging these people factually wrong? 

Remember, for something to be a fact, then it must be true regardless of humans opinions/preferences and desires.

If it is a fact, then these facts exist and existed BEFORE any humans arrived on the scene. The question for the non believer is....what are these facts doing existing in a godless universe?

Remember, laws come from law givers/minds...not mindless random matter. 
searchwarrant PM searchwarrant
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Posted: 10/3/2016 11:50:14 PM
It's like trying to have a rational conversation with a liberal. 
Rostos PM Rostos
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Posted: 10/3/2016 11:55:22 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by searchwarrant:

It's like trying to have a rational conversation with a liberal. 

I am still interested to know how moral facts exist in a godless universe..

In the absence of God, morality is nothing more than a man made concept. It doesnt actually exist.

There is no such thing as moral rights and wrongs as FACTS.
searchwarrant PM searchwarrant
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Posted: 10/3/2016 11:58:59 PM
By the way Rostos, even the priests abandoned the church during black death and created private churches. They also abandoned the ill to save themselves. Thankfully 80% of them died anyway. The christian church was filled with corruption. 
Fancy that. Amazing how history repeats itself. 

Plague microbe is still alive and well. Cannot find a host but thankfully, modern medicine can treat it. God has nothing to do with any of it. Human living habits do. 
thorpe PM thorpe
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Posted: 10/4/2016 12:02:44 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Rostos:


evolution across species "is nothing but an extrapolation and magnification of the events that take place WITHIN populations and species."

Harvard's longtime evolution expert Ernst Mayr

Seriously, leave the science to rational people and go study your Bible.

That qote is Mayr summarizing the position of "Synthetic Theory of Evolution", not his own view.  And this theory does not deny that there is evolution across species.

The debate is whether the evolution is a gradual process or whether the evolution happens in short intervals with little evolution between. (punctuated equlibrium).

Here is a nice explanation from a Creationist website:

http://www.creationbc.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=124&Itemid=62

searchwarrant PM searchwarrant
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Posted: 10/4/2016 12:12:20 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Rostos:


I am still interested to know how moral facts exist in a godless universe..

In the absence of God, morality is nothing more than a man made concept. It doesnt actually exist.

There is no such thing as moral rights and wrongs as FACTS.

A godless universe in the minds of the religious is impossible but is very much capable. I aunderstand and appreciate that because in the grand scheme of the universe, there is no true scientific meaning., no purpose, no comprehension. Just live, laugh eat and enjoy the ride. Life is all over the universe created by scientific events that are beyond our calculation. 

I'd like for you to read or watch some of the spectacular events that take place in the universe every split second the simply overwhelm life on earth. 
"Journey To The Edge Of The Universe" is a very good start. 
I do respect your beliefs but I would also encourage you to examine our universe on a more practical level. 
Earth not unique and special. Trust me. 
searchwarrant PM searchwarrant
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Posted: 10/4/2016 12:21:44 AM
That qote is Mayr summarizing the position of "Synthetic Theory of Evolution", not his own view.  And this theory does not deny that there is evolution across species.

The debate is whether the evolution is a gradual process or whether the evolution happens in short intervals with little evolution between. (punctuated equlibrium).


Evolution among species is without doubt in full effect every moment on earth. Evolution in our galaxy is also in full affect.

Gradual process billions of years, maybe more imo. 
Good post.

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Posted: 10/4/2016 1:33:41 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by searchwarrant:

By the way Rostos, even the priests abandoned the church during black death and created private churches. They also abandoned the ill to save themselves. Thankfully 80% of them died anyway. The christian church was filled with corruption. 
Fancy that. Amazing how history repeats itself. 

Plague microbe is still alive and well. Cannot find a host but thankfully, modern medicine can treat it. God has nothing to do with any of it. Human living habits do. 

What does that have anything at all to do with my argument?
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Posted: 10/4/2016 1:37:06 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by searchwarrant:


A godless universe in the minds of the religious is impossible but is very much capable. I aunderstand and appreciate that because in the grand scheme of the universe, there is no true scientific meaning., no purpose, no comprehension. Just live, laugh eat and enjoy the ride. Life is all over the universe created by scientific events that are beyond our calculation. 

Yet, you start many many posts here condemning the moral acts of various people in the news. Funny that.
Why do such a thing IF "there is no true scientific meaning, no purpose and no comprehension"? Hey, they are your words not mine. 

I'd like for you to read or watch some of the spectacular events that take place in the universe every split second the simply overwhelm life on earth. 
"Journey To The Edge Of The Universe" is a very good start. 
I do respect your beliefs but I would also encourage you to examine our universe on a more practical level. 
Earth not unique and special. Trust me. 

Sure
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Posted: 10/4/2016 1:40:48 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by thorpe:


Seriously, leave the science to rational people and go study your Bible.

That qote is Mayr summarizing the position of "Synthetic Theory of Evolution", not his own view.  And this theory does not deny that there is evolution across species.

The debate is whether the evolution is a gradual process or whether the evolution happens in short intervals with little evolution between. (punctuated equlibrium).

Here is a nice explanation from a Creationist website:

http://www.creationbc.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=124&Itemid=62


It is an EXTRAPOLATION. That is the point. It hasnt been observed.
Have a look at the experiment on fruit flies due to there short life span are able to observe several tens of thousand of generations.

The results are very underwhelming. No new functionality, in fact, it really resulted in the degradation of them.
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Posted: 10/4/2016 1:53:42 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Balph:

Creation FTW!

Creationism = Full Throttle Wacko
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Posted: 10/4/2016 2:07:07 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Rostos:


It is an EXTRAPOLATION. That is the point. It hasnt been observed.
Have a look at the experiment on fruit flies due to there short life span are able to observe several tens of thousand of generations.

The results are very underwhelming. No new functionality, in fact, it really resulted in the degradation of them.


A perfect example of relative life span, the fruit fly life span has been carefully studied. I'm wagering you're level of education is minimal, especially in biology. 
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Posted: 10/4/2016 5:25:27 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by searchwarrant:



A perfect example of relative life span, the fruit fly life span has been carefully studied. I'm wagering you're level of education is minimal, especially in biology. 

Fruit flies remain fruit flies with no new functionality
666LES PM 666LES
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Posted: 10/4/2016 3:55:43 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Rostos:


Fruit flies remain fruit flies with no new functionality
Evolution is the adaption of populations of species by biological mutation to CHANGES in the evironment. Without a constant change(s) over several generations at least there would be no evolving and the changes would have to be over the whole population.
There was change (evolution) in the Dusty Moth of UK during the period of Industrial Revolution as the Habitat of the moth was subject to greater deposit of ash from smokestack.The moth changed it's protective coloration to match the ash-strewn tree trunks.
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Posted: 10/4/2016 6:27:27 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by 666LES:

Evolution is the adaption of populations of species by biological mutation to CHANGES in the evironment. Without a constant change(s) over several generations at least there would be no evolving and the changes would have to be over the whole population.
There was change (evolution) in the Dusty Moth of UK during the period of Industrial Revolution as the Habitat of the moth was subject to greater deposit of ash from smokestack.The moth changed it's protective coloration to match the ash-strewn tree trunks.

But all that happened in that case was that the proportion of light-colored moths in the population decreased and the proportion of dark-colored moths increased. Light-colored moths never evolved into dark-colored moths. Taken as evidence of the power of natural selection and random mutation to produce macroevolutionary change, honestly, to call such evidence paltry would be to pay it an undue compliment.


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