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Author: [MLB Betting] Topic: Miguel Cabrera is the MVP
PureButta
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#26
Posted: 10/2/2012 7:50:55 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Professional1:

MVP should not go to somebody who can't play defense come on.
  13 errors all season.....which is he's played 160 games of.
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#27
Posted: 10/2/2012 7:51:58 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Vic-Vega:

Baseball.....in denial about losing the battle to steroids.

Cabrera....and a cast of many more
nfl has plenty of roids
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#28
Posted: 10/2/2012 8:42:30 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by PureButta:

For anyone to think that Miggy is not the MVP of the league and Mike Trout is is absolutely laughable.  You would have to be one of the biggest idiots in the history of the world for you to think that.  Give me one realistic argument that he isn't......please.  All these talking heads who have Trout winning and saying he is a more complete player than Cabby is by far one of the   most asinine things I have ever heard.  Take nothing away from Trout, but he is no where near Cabrera level.  Not the same planet or universe for that matter.

BY THE WAY HE IS GOING TO WIN THE TRIPLE CROWN.

MY BOY!!!!
             
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#29
Posted: 10/2/2012 8:50:34 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Tone10:

It's laughable that people think Cabrera should win it over Trout.

I don't care if he wins the Triple Crown... the Triple Crown doesn't take into account walks, it doesn't differentiate doubles or triples from singles, it doesn't take into account skill on the basepaths, and most of all it doesn't factor in defense (of which Trout is upper-echolon while Cabrera is simply below-average).

Taking EVERYTHING into account (not just hitting), it's clear Trout has been the better player and more valuable to his team.

Based on the slash line of AVG/OBP/SLG, statistically speaking, this is Cabrera's WORST year between from 2010 - 2012

2010: .328/.422/.620 (1.042 OPS)

2011: .344/.448/.586 (1.033 OPS)

2012: .325/.390/.601 (.991 OPS)

If Cabrera didn't win the MVP those years, why should he win it this year? Just because he might win the "Triple Crown" because it just so happened nobody has hit more than 45 HR's or has an average above .325?


.329/.393/.608  (1.001 OPS)

career high in hits, rbi's, and hr's

3rd in AL among 3B for fielding percentage
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#30
Posted: 10/2/2012 10:17:36 PM

@ DanTos

Fielding % leaves a lot to be desired. How does fielding % measure range? There are balls that Cabrera has no shot at getting because his range is limited... he doesn't get an error on those, but he's also not saving his team runs. This is a problem with the Tigers as a whole; they're widely considered one of the worst defensive teams in baseball.

Trout, on the other hand, has saved a ridiculous amount of runs with his range to get to balls many other outfielders couldn't get to.

The argument that Trout's team isn't going to the playoffs while Cabrera's is doesn't hold water in my opinion... so Cabrera should win the MVP because his team got to feast on the likes of the Royals, Twins, and Indians while the Angels had the Rangers and A's to deal with? The Angels have a better record, but let's give it to the guy who's going to the playoffs because his team plays in the AL Central?

People don't like it, but WAR measures value better than any stat out there, and Trout BLOWS the competition out of the water. The MVP is not for the best hitter in baseball, it's for the most valuable all around player. That includes offense, defense, and baserunning.

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#31
Posted: 10/2/2012 10:48:02 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Tone10:

@ DanTos

Fielding % leaves a lot to be desired. How does fielding % measure range? There are balls that Cabrera has no shot at getting because his range is limited... he doesn't get an error on those, but he's also not saving his team runs. This is a problem with the Tigers as a whole; they're widely considered one of the worst defensive teams in baseball.

Trout, on the other hand, has saved a ridiculous amount of runs with his range to get to balls many other outfielders couldn't get to.

The argument that Trout's team isn't going to the playoffs while Cabrera's is doesn't hold water in my opinion... so Cabrera should win the MVP because his team got to feast on the likes of the Royals, Twins, and Indians while the Angels had the Rangers and A's to deal with? The Angels have a better record, but let's give it to the guy who's going to the playoffs because his team plays in the AL Central?

People don't like it, but WAR measures value better than any stat out there, and Trout BLOWS the competition out of the water. The MVP is not for the best hitter in baseball, it's for the most valuable all around player. That includes offense, defense, and baserunning.


Not always.  See last years MVP.

Sure Cabrera doesn't have the greatest range, but he's also playing out of position.  You said he was below average, and having the 3rd best fielding percentage says that your statement is false.

Trout is a better defender, and better on the basepaths, but he's not a better hitter.  

Trout will get his time.
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#32
Posted: 10/2/2012 10:49:28 PM
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#33
Posted: 10/2/2012 11:00:07 PM
FYI

Trout had 6 RBI in the month of September.  32 strikeouts.  5 home runs.  Average dipped .336 to .321, 15 points.


Cabrera had 32 RBI in the month of September.  24 strikeouts.  10 Homer runs.  Average dipped from .332 to .325, 8 points.

September, probably the most important month down the stretch to a playoff run.

Let's talk valuable again.
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#34
Posted: 10/2/2012 11:50:41 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DanTos8715:

FYI

Trout had 6 RBI in the month of September.  32 strikeouts.  5 home runs.  Average dipped .336 to .321, 15 points.


Cabrera had 32 RBI in the month of September.  24 strikeouts.  10 Homer runs.  Average dipped from .332 to .325, 8 points.

September, probably the most important month down the stretch to a playoff run.

Let's talk valuable again.

Did this moron really use RBIs to compare a leadoff hitter and a 3 hole hitter?  

You kids are friggin clueless.  It's embarrassing that the Triple Crown is gonna waste the best season in the history of baseball.
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#35
Posted: 10/3/2012 1:43:16 PM
@ DanTos
People don't like it, but WAR measures value better than any stat out there, and Trout BLOWS the competition out of the water. The MVP is not for the best hitter in baseball, it's for the most valuable all around player. That includes offense, defense, and baserunning.....

Foolish foolish foolish. WAR is actually not a good stat. Cabrera WAR is something like 7 games. With out him tigers are anywhere from 12-17 games worse, and i think im low balling it. WAR is an imaginary stat, w no real value bc it is a hypothetical.
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#36
Posted: 10/3/2012 5:54:38 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by TriZMiK:


Did this moron really use RBIs to compare a leadoff hitter and a 3 hole hitter?  

You kids are friggin clueless.  It's embarrassing that the Triple Crown is gonna waste the best season in the history of baseball.

Moron?  Ok fucktard.  Obviously there is going to be an RBI difference in RBI totals between a leadoff hitter and a 3 hole hitter, but 26 IN ONE MONTH??  That's huge, genius.

How about this?  A leadoff hitter should crush in runs.  Trout had 21 in September, and Cabrera had 24.

Do we need to go on, moron?
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#37
Posted: 10/4/2012 4:17:42 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DanTos8715:


Moron?  Ok fucktard.  Obviously there is going to be an RBI difference in RBI totals between a leadoff hitter and a 3 hole hitter, but 26 IN ONE MONTH??  That's huge, genius.

How about this?  A leadoff hitter should crush in runs.  Trout had 21 in September, and Cabrera had 24.

Do we need to go on, moron?

Lol are we being serious with this garbage?  Since when did the MVP become the MVP of September?  

Trout:  30 HRs, 49 SBs, 129 runs, .324 AVG, .397 OBP, .561 SLG, wOBA .421, wRC+ 174

Cabrera: 44 HRs, 109 runs, .330 AVG, .393 OBP, .605 SLG, wOBA .417, 167 wRC+

Trout has an advantage offensively.  But, do we dare bring up the HUGE gap defensively and in baserunning?  The gap is bigger than the world is wide.  Or did we all forget there is more to the game of baseball than RBIs?  Lol.  This garbage isn't even close, it's sad that people even try to argue.
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#38
Posted: 10/4/2012 4:23:17 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by anandet:

@ DanTos
Foolish foolish foolish. WAR is actually not a good stat. Cabrera WAR is something like 7 games. With out him tigers are anywhere from 12-17 games worse, and i think im low balling it. WAR is an imaginary stat, w no real value bc it is a hypothetical. 

People are really mislead on how many games one player impacts to a whole season.  The Giants won 86 games last year without Posey.  This year 94 and he has an 8.3 WAR, amazing isn't it?

Btw do you have anything to back up your assumption of 12-17 games or are you just pulling numbers out of your behind?
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#39
Posted: 10/4/2012 11:27:00 AM
This is why I detest so many fellow Tigers fans. Tiger fans typically have a very low baseball IQ which is not really their fault considering the team has been awful for most of their life. Trout impacts the game on so many levels whereas Cabrera only impacts the game when he is hitting. The argument "Tigers made the playoffs and Angels didn't" is irrelevant since, THE ANGELS HAVE A BETTER RECORD THAN THE TIGERS! You're punishing a guy who plays in a tougher division? Trout plays in arguably the toughest division whereas Miggy plays in the weakest. The Tigers didn't even have one of the 6 best records in the AL. Also, don't the Angels have the best record in the AL since Trout was brought up? Lets also point out the pitching staffs in each division, it's not even close, the AL West is superior in that category. The fielding% stat like someone pointed out is irrelevant too, no one in their mind would pick Cabrera as the 3rd best fielding 3B, use your head. He is acceptable at best.

If I were starting a team and Cabrera was 21 like Trout, I would pick Trout simply because he is the more complete player and affects the game on so many levels. I'm not entirely certain how strong his arm is, but he could be the closest thing to being the true definition of a "5 tool player"

To say  this is an easy call is absurd and ignorant. I would be perfectly fine if Miggy or Trout won since both are very deserving.
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#40
Posted: 10/4/2012 12:50:00 PM

Keep it simple:

Stats matter.  Triple Crown winner Cabrera should take the MVP.  Should be a landslide if you ask me.

Even this minor note:  DET is in the playoffs.  The star studded LA Angels are at home watching the playoffs.

Side note:  Trout deserves it too but since Cabrera had such a stunning stat, there is NO WAY you don't give it to him.  It would be a fix if they gave it to Trout (or anyone) for that matter.

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#41
Posted: 10/4/2012 12:51:41 PM

If they find Cabrera juiced up this year, I won't be surprised.  It seems to me that every player that excels seems to be on something good! 

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#42
Posted: 10/4/2012 1:18:52 PM
Finally, some voices of reason in this thread supporting Trout.

People, the Triple Crown is an antiquated award. It measures such a small measure of a ballplayer, and it doesn't even do that well because it doesn't differentiate doubles and triple from singles (batting average) and is largely dependent on others teammates and where you bat in the lineup (rbi's).

MVP should be Trout's, but I doubt he wins it now, because "OMG, Cabrera... TRIPLE CROWN!!!"
Posted using a mobile device.
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#43
Posted: 10/4/2012 1:32:28 PM

cabrera had  a  fielding  percentage  ranked 6th among all 3rd basemen.

 

trout had a  fielding  percentage ranked 9th among  all CF

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#44
Posted: 10/4/2012 1:38:53 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by archdriver:

cabrera had  a  fielding  percentage  ranked 6th among all 3rd basemen.

 

trout had a  fielding  percentage ranked 9th among  all CF

It's all about range... fielding % doesn't measure that.

Imagine two players... Player A and Player B.

Out of 10 balls hit, Player A can get to 7 of them and makes 7 outs. He makes no errors for a 1.000 fielding %.

Player B can get to all 10 balls, but makes 3 errors. He also makes 7 outs, but his fielding % is .700.

Both Player A and Player B made 7 outs... but Player B at least had the opportunity to make three more, while player A had no chance because of his limited range.

Yet, Player A is the better fielder because he has a better fielding % than Player B? Sorry, but no.

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#45
Posted: 10/4/2012 1:47:44 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Tone10:

It's all about range... fielding % doesn't measure that.

Imagine two players... Player A and Player B.

Out of 10 balls hit, Player A can get to 7 of them and makes 7 outs. He makes no errors for a 1.000 fielding %.

Player B can get to all 10 balls, but makes 3 errors. He also makes 7 outs, but his fielding % is .700.

Both Player A and Player B made 7 outs... but Player B at least had the opportunity to make three more, while player A had no chance because of his limited range.

Yet, Player A is the better fielder because he has a better fielding % than Player B? Sorry, but no.

If you had a fielding % of .700 you would be in the league.  But I see you working and it makes ZERO sense.

How does everyone forget about the start Pujols had and when he woke up they were much better...coincidentally Trout came up the same time.  

Cabrera batted .378 to Trout's .287 from August til the end of the year.

Great year for the rook but the best hitter in baseball should win the MVP this year....Trout will get his (maybe, if he isn't a fluke)
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#46
Posted: 10/4/2012 2:00:18 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Tone10:

It's all about range... fielding % doesn't measure that.

Imagine two players... Player A and Player B.

Out of 10 balls hit, Player A can get to 7 of them and makes 7 outs. He makes no errors for a 1.000 fielding %.

Player B can get to all 10 balls, but makes 3 errors. He also makes 7 outs, but his fielding % is .700.

Both Player A and Player B made 7 outs... but Player B at least had the opportunity to make three more, while player A had no chance because of his limited range.

Yet, Player A is the better fielder because he has a better fielding % than Player B? Sorry, but no.

 

 I  think the point  of  ranking fielding percentages, (I am not the one  who goes to the  trouble  to  rank them)  is  to  compare position  players.   i  think it is more  meaningful than you suggest  when  you  rank players who play the same position. 

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#47
Posted: 10/4/2012 2:25:33 PM
No one has won the triple crown in forty five years!  If this does not make you MVP I do not know what will.  I hope he continues in play offs.  I think they can win the WS.  NYY is hot too.  I do not see TX or Oak or Balt getting there.  TX may be the Buffalo Bills of MLB if they get to WS.  No, no, no.
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#48
Posted: 10/4/2012 2:33:09 PM

...

it's a mistake to diminish the team contribution, including defensivell, made by cabrera  this season...

5 yrs after he last played the position, he was asked to move back to 3rd to accommodate the arrival of prince fielder...as i recall, he did so without complaint...

in spring training a bad-hop groundball fractured his orbital bone...something like can play tricks with your mind but cabrera wasn't affected...

now there's no doubt we're not talking brooks robinson here, or that trout is the better defender, but anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows a manager will say what he values most defensively is the guy who makes the routine play...cabrera does that as well as any 3rd baseman...what he doesn't do is go horizontal a la a craig nettles or b robby...

now unlike cabrera, trout has the extraordinary ability to do the horizontal thing, i.e. make the "spectacular" play, and those kind of plays resonate; they make the hilite shows, they stay with us, the OF leaping over the wall to pull back the HR ball, and they leave the impression the guy who makes them is far superior with the glove...

what im saying is that cabrera making the 'routine' play, over the course of 162 games, is on balance just as important...and don't forget he made the move for the team, and he played a very dependable 3rd base...

trout making the spectacular play look "routine" no doubt leaves a more lasting mark, but IMO doesn't lessen the notion that cabrera made an unselfish and all-around team contribution more than worthy of an MVP

 

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#49
Posted: 10/4/2012 3:24:17 PM

RANGE FACTOR

It is calculated by dividing putouts and assists by the number of innings or games played at a given defense position. The statistic is premised on the notion that the total number of outs in which a player participates is more relevant in evaluating that player's defensive play than the percentage of cleanly handled chances as calculated by the conventional statistic fielding percentage.

 

Miguel Cabrera  was  5th amongst all 3rd basemen with a  RF of 

 2.50

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#50
Posted: 10/4/2012 4:07:59 PM
The Cabrera MVP argument based solely on the Triple Crown is comical.  This isn't even Cabrera's best year of his career. 

We have never seen anyone in the history of baseball impact the game in as many ways as Trout did this year.  The only player comparable is Rickey Henderson's 1990 season.
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