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Author: [NHL Betting] Topic: Hank
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#1
Posted: 5/22/2014 11:12:55 PM
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#2
Posted: 5/22/2014 11:17:07 PM
B grade goalie .880 sv pct
A grade rookie .946 sv pct
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potvin
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#3
Posted: 5/22/2014 11:28:47 PM
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#4
Posted: 5/22/2014 11:52:53 PM
Lol you just hate everyone... Except Miller haha
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Polar_Bear
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#5
Posted: 5/22/2014 11:56:35 PM
TRUTH!!

Put him on a crappy team that does not block a million shots a season and play super tight defense and he would get raped....
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#6
Posted: 5/23/2014 12:01:06 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Polar_Bear:

TRUTH!!

Put him on a crappy team that does not block a million shots a season and play super tight defense and he would get raped....
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#7
Posted: 5/23/2014 12:03:06 AM
Well said PB
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Lippsman
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#8
Posted: 5/23/2014 12:23:05 AM
So I guess that .931 Sv% for the playoffs is just trash ?  You say that a great deal of shots are blocked.  But what about the shots that get through ?  They still have to be stopped.  That's why I always have liked Sv% over GAA

Oh and something else. It's talked about the Rangers blocking so many shots.  Well the Rags only have one player in the regular season that was in the top 10 in blocking shots while the Habs have the No. 4 and No. 5 shot blockers.  Sooooo..........  Ya know. 

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#9
Posted: 5/23/2014 12:25:08 AM
Ready for the suspense.   Guess which team lead the regular season in blocked shots and which team was in the bottom 10 ? 

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#10
Posted: 5/23/2014 1:01:59 AM
Oh, so I suppose every shot that gets through a blocked shot attempt is a really difficult save made by the goalie?? And that blocked shot attempts don't alter the shot AT ALL and make that save any easier whatsoever?? I guess every shot that gets through a blocked shot attempt should not be considered as an attempt to help the goalie out and absorb a shooting lane, hell maybe two?

Thanks for clearing all of that up...

Goooooooooddnneeesss
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potvin
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#11
Posted: 5/23/2014 1:10:32 AM
blocked shot attempts can make things more difficult for the net minder. you either block it or don't redirect it
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#12
Posted: 5/23/2014 1:17:40 AM
Its pretty funny that every elite goalie today has its doubters..i cannot think of one that doesn't

rask, lundqvist, quick and price...i think you poll the majority of people these are the top 4..only one has a championship and imo quick is the most inconsistent one from year to year he only has 1 elite season

the more your team blocks shots the more it means your team is bad or poor defensively...it means you dont have the puck..its just like hits...such an overrated stat..just do a quick run through of teams with the most blocked shots in regular season they are always more average to terrible teams then there are elite to good teams
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#13
Posted: 5/23/2014 1:18:38 AM
But it can't make it less difficult?? Look, I get it. But denying the fact that they attempted a lot and that they don't "sometimes" help is just ridiculous. And yes, Im well aware Im questioning the GREAT LIPPSMAN here. I just think he's over looking some things. Shoot me...
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#14
Posted: 5/23/2014 1:24:28 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by wheaty :

Oh, so I suppose every shot that gets through a blocked shot attempt is a really difficult save made by the goalie?? And that blocked shot attempts don't alter the shot AT ALL and make that save any easier whatsoever?? I guess every shot that gets through a blocked shot attempt should not be considered as an attempt to help the goalie out and absorb a shooting lane, hell maybe two?

Thanks for clearing all of that up...

Goooooooooddnneeesss

Well I guess you have to talk to Price and all the other Hab goaltenders about that. I was responding to the thought process of uthe only reason Lundy was a good goaltender was because of so many blocked shots. Well lo and behold a little research would of told you the Hab goaltenders have the benifit of the most blocked shots in the league. So that means Price is only good because of all the blocked shots ?

Well of course not, that is just stupid to think that.  Also as potvin pointed out, its a double edge sword. If the player doesn't block the shot all he has done is screened his own goaltender. 
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#15
Posted: 5/23/2014 1:28:15 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by wiggins:

Its pretty funny that every elite goalie today has its doubters..i cannot think of one that doesn't

rask, lundqvist, quick and price...i think you poll the majority of people these are the top 4..only one has a championship and imo quick is the most inconsistent one from year to year he only has 1 elite season

the more your team blocks shots the more it means your team is bad or poor defensively...it means you dont have the puck..its just like hits...such an overrated stat..just do a quick run through of teams with the most blocked shots in regular season they are always more average to terrible teams then there are elite to good teams

You nailed it 100% Wiggins.Although the Habs are that exception this year.



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#16
Posted: 5/23/2014 1:39:48 AM
I don't necessarily agree with you, but fair enough. You're entitled to your opinion and me mine.
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#17
Posted: 5/23/2014 4:30:47 PM
Ok so I was going to avoid adding anything to this but Lipps asked for my nickel ontop of my two cents so here goes. While I generally like using the save % as a good barometer of a goalies effectiveness the problem I have with Lundqvists save % is this, when teams play the Rangers they play them with the Rangers have the big time identity if a premier shot blocking team. So with this in mind I believe that two things occur from this that skew both Hanks save % as well as the actual number of shots blocked by the Rangers. The Rangers have had this identity and reputation for quite some time now, so what often happens is with this in mind opposing teams will game plan to avoid the Rangers very skilled shot blocking system by taking different shot routes such many poor percentage shots from the outer perimeter and often from poor angles as they loo to avoid the shooting lanes the Rangers always have blocked so well. What this does is give us a great deal of easy saves made from shots from far out and from poor angles which are both very easy for any average goaltender to stop.

Case in point game 2 of this rangers/habs series. While Lundqvist played well I do not think it was a performance that was equal to that of a usual 40 save performance you would see from goaltenders on most nights. In additions the habs attempted just under 60 shots towards the rangers net in game 2. Now I think we can all agree that after the initial flurry of the habs in the first 10 minutes of the game, the habs in no way shape or form ever looked like a dangerous hockey team again that night. Yet they had almost 60 shot attempts and 41 shots on net. The stats from that night make Hank look absolutely incredible, but in fact the large majority of those shots were garbage shots from the perimeter and from poor angles and many soft as the habs players tried to take any shot they could that they thought could avoid the rangers very skilled shot blockers, and solid defensive play. In the 3rd period that night the habs attempted 27 shots at the rangers net and had 19 shots and I am sorry but the habs almost never looked dangerous in the 3rd period that night and almost none of those 19 shots were very dangerous or difficult to stop.

That above is what happens on most nights with the rangers when it comes to their opposition and this badly skews the statistics in Lundqvists favour.

Playing behind a very good and responsible defensive structure, I do not think Lundqvists deals with many breakaways, odd man rushes, glaring giveaways in his own zone or in the neutral area by his defencemen or many prime scoring chances, because the team in front of him plays a very solid defensive style of hockey and their main focus is defensive responsibility first and offence a distant second.

Conversely Leaf, Panther and Sabres goalies deal with all of the stuff routinely that Hanks almost never has to deal with. So one guy stops ten non dangerous shots from the perimeter and wow look at those amazing numbers. Meanwhile Bernier or Reimer ouit of the same ten shots will probably deal with about seven prime scoring opportunities. Phaneuf alone will hand the puck to an opposing forward every night or so creating an odd man rush and incredible scoring chance. That one save to me is harder and bigger than sevent to ten of those routine shots that are guided around rangers defenceman that as almost always are in perfect position.

Then there is the second and third chance opportunities which a team like the Rangers do a great job at clearing away from in front of their net while the leafs, panthers and sabres, ya not so much.

I am not saying he is garbage but I certainly do not think he is at all what he is made out to be.

Look at Ilya Bryzgalov behind a defensive system like the Coyotes and now Wild...Olympic and all star goalie and up for the vezina...great right? Look at the same goalie behind a team that plays wide open hockey like the Flyers or Oilers...castoff and a joke...crap right?

Mike Smith is lost....Then he replaces Bryzgalov behind the Coyotes system and whoa, guess who is on Team Canada and at the Olympics and an all star and in line for the vezina...sound familiar.

I use numbers too and they do mean something but we have to keep in mind what is behind those numbers and what is lending it's hand to them. 

I used Crawfords numbers the other day, because unlike many after keith and seabrook I do not think the hawks defence is as amazing as people make it out to be, I think there is a big drop off after those two all stars. 

When Chris Pronger was with my Flyers running the defence, Boucher and Leighton were both stars and almost won a stanley cup both had a part in. That is no coincidence.

Probably more than you bargained for Lipps LOL and sorry of there are errors, I am sure there are, but I am not proof reading this.


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#18
Posted: 5/23/2014 4:54:07 PM
wow polar, took me less time to read war of the worlds. but as always nice writes. understand a lot of your points. well put!
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#19
Posted: 5/23/2014 5:02:01 PM
I warned you, I didn;t realize until I finished it....I would just skip it myself lol,

Since you read it though, i am not hating on the guy, but we all see things differently and that is how I see it and him. I think he is very good, that's evident by watching him, but I do not think he is as great as he is made out to be and if he was on a poor defensive team, i personally think that would become very evident.
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#20
Posted: 5/23/2014 5:10:21 PM
Oh not that is great Polar, I really like the way you went with it.  But that's the thing you brought up again.  The Rangers are not a shot blocking team anymore. 

But you also added about the quality of shots.  Well it really depends on the team, but that's where the shot scoring percentage comes in. During the regular season the Rangers averaged 29.4 allowed a game which was in the middle of the pack. 

This is a classic case of a team being one way for awhile and even after they change their style everyone still thinks they play that way.  Case in point saying the Rangers just block shots when that wasn't even close to the case this year.  

Personally I never had to deal with my guys blocking shots.  Back when I played you were called a box if you went down on the ice like that. 
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#21
Posted: 5/23/2014 5:13:12 PM
Box = P*ussy. 

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#22
Posted: 5/23/2014 5:39:55 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by wiggins:

Its pretty funny that every elite goalie today has its doubters..i cannot think of one that doesn't

rask, lundqvist, quick and price...i think you poll the majority of people these are the top 4..only one has a championship and imo quick is the most inconsistent one from year to year he only has 1 elite season

the more your team blocks shots the more it means your team is bad or poor defensively...it means you dont have the puck..its just like hits...such an overrated stat..just do a quick run through of teams with the most blocked shots in regular season they are always more average to terrible teams then there are elite to good teams
Every elite goalie should have its doubters as far as im concerned.  Show me a good defence and i'll show you a good goalie.  I'll give you one example:  Everyone would consider Pekka Rinne an elite goalie right?.  Enter #1 SIEVEUS PRIMUS EXAMPLUS Carter Hutton  20-11-4   GAA 2.62   .910 SVPCT.  See where i'm going with this.  If you put Rinne in net for the Leafs, he would be admitted to a long term health facility for shell shock after facing 165 shots in 3 games.
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#23
Posted: 5/23/2014 5:47:06 PM
That's why SV% is a stat I look at big time. I think GAA is almost useless as a goaltender stat. 
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#24
Posted: 5/23/2014 5:53:48 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Lippsman:

Box = P*ussy. 

I was always told never leave your feet unless you are 100% sure.

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#25
Posted: 5/23/2014 5:55:35 PM
save % is the only relevant stat but then you get into shot quality.

its all relative.

here's an article attempting to show the difference between price and rask trying to look at shot quality.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/shot-quality-reveals-rasks-true-value/

i especially enjoy it because it shows how great price is.
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