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Author: [NBA Betting] Topic: no Star ever won a ring alone, so step off 'Bron's jock
Fairweatherfan send a private message View Space | Friends | Playbook |
Fairweatherfan
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Posted: 6/6/2011 9:54:38 PM
Oh and Hakeem begs to differ with the OP, in the 94 playoffs he lead the team in minutes, boards, assists, steals, blocks (he had nearly twice as many as the rest of his team combined), averaged 29 points a game, more than double anyone else on the team.


Good luck arguing that one
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Posted: 6/6/2011 10:05:04 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Fairweatherfan:

Oh and Hakeem begs to differ with the OP, in the 94 playoffs he lead the team in minutes, boards, assists, steals, blocks (he had nearly twice as many as the rest of his team combined), averaged 29 points a game, more than double anyone else on the team.


Good luck arguing that one


already addressed it when someone else brought up hakeem.  he had some very talented players around him. otis thorpe went to an all star game, was a rebounding stud and scored in double digits for avg, he always guarded the other team's best frontcourt player so he protected

and in 95, drexler came to town, ever heard of that guy? 10x all star

wtf are you talking about? hakeem had:

otis thorpe, all star
kenny the jet smith
sam cassell, (then) future nba all star
vernon maxwell,
mario elie
robert horry, 1 of the most clutch shooters EVER
then clyde drexler for the 95 season

the Rockets had GREAT teams around olajuwon when they won 2 rings


but hakeem was most lucky to not have jordan in the league 
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Posted: 6/6/2011 10:12:17 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by happyshine:

All the stars have someone to play with, yes ! But, also none of the star player left their team to join the other stars.

I've never heard " Superman " move in spiderman's house and batman join them later on......

This's typical " If u can't beat them, join them. " theroy

 


i dont particularly like lebron, wade is my favorite player since he got in the league, but this argument is so stupid. none of those players played in cleveland. no matter what they would have done they would have never had gotten the players to help lebron period. he wasnt going to win anything in cleveland.
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Posted: 6/6/2011 10:14:48 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by gridironguy:



wtf are you talking about? hakeem had:

otis thorpe, all star
kenny the jet smith
sam cassell
vernon maxwell
mario elie
robert horry
then clyde drexler

the Rockets had GREAT teams around olajuwon when they won 2 rings


You sir are dumb, Jason Kidd (present) will be known as more of a star than any of these players you named.  Look at Kidds career numbers (Drexler was a great player but Kidd is known as a top 5 PG of all time), therefore your argument is technically saying Dallas Mavericks are very capable of winning this championship.
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Posted: 6/6/2011 10:28:41 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by gridironguy:



already addressed it when someone else brought up hakeem.  he had some very talented players around him. otis thorpe went to an all star game, was a rebounding stud and scored in double digits for avg, he always guarded the other team's best frontcourt player so he protected

and in 95, drexler came to town, ever heard of that guy? 10x all star

wtf are you talking about? hakeem had:

otis thorpe, all star
kenny the jet smith
sam cassell, (then) future nba all star
vernon maxwell,
mario elie
robert horry, 1 of the most clutch shooters EVER
then clyde drexler for the 95 season

the Rockets had GREAT teams around olajuwon when they won 2 rings


but hakeem was most lucky to not have jordan in the league 


Dude when you have to say ALL-STAR OTIS THORPE, you should realize there's a problem, Kenny Smith was never an elite NBA player, Sam Cassell made one all-star team 10 YEARS LATER and as you yourself added, Clyde wasn't on the team that year.  I'd really really like to know where you came up with a superstar in that bunch.

You know better than that, just admit Hakeem was the exception to the rule and move on
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Posted: 6/6/2011 10:28:47 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by troy9828:



You sir are dumb, Jason Kidd (present) will be known as more of a star than any of these players you named.  Look at Kidds career numbers (Drexler was a great player but Kidd is known as a top 5 PG of all time), therefore your argument is technically saying Dallas Mavericks are very capable of winning this championship.


i said NO STAR HAS EVER WON ALONE, i did not say "no good teams have ever failed winning a championship". TONS of teams in history were very good but never won a ring because there were 1 or 2 teams better than them

1990 and 1992 portland was very good but ran into Jordan
1997 and 1998 utah was very good but ran into Jordan

just a few examples, anyways

and btw, kidd is way past his prime, but dallas is a very good team who is not looking like they'll win a championship, dirk is the only one scoring, his teammates, especially jason terry, are having a tough time scoring against this D
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Posted: 6/6/2011 10:29:27 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by troy9828:



You sir are dumb, Jason Kidd (present) will be known as more of a star than any of these players you named.  Look at Kidds career numbers (Drexler was a great player but Kidd is known as a top 5 PG of all time), therefore your argument is technically saying Dallas Mavericks are very capable of winning this championship.


Jason Terry is probably better than any of the players he mentioned
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Posted: 6/6/2011 10:30:09 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Fairweatherfan:



Dude when you have to say ALL-STAR OTIS THORPE, you should realize there's a problem, Kenny Smith was never an elite NBA player, Sam Cassell made one all-star team 10 YEARS LATER and as you yourself added, Clyde wasn't on the team that year.  I'd really really like to know where you came up with a superstar in that bunch.

You know better than that, just admit Hakeem was the exception to the rule and move on


oh yeah and put an asterisk next to hakeem's rings because jordan wasnt in the league in 94 and came back late in 95

in my mind hakeem never won 
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Posted: 6/6/2011 10:31:50 PM
the rockets 94 and 95 rosters had lots and lots of talent

you guys don't remember how well hakeems supporting cast rebounded, shot 3's, defended, and distributed

i'm probably forgetting players that were also there but i know i'm right so it does not matter

oh, and umm, ASTERISK with no jordan in the league those 2 yrs
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Posted: 6/6/2011 10:31:54 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by gridironguy:



oh yeah and put an asterisk next to hakeem's rings because jordan wasnt in the league in 94 and came back late in 95

in my mind hakeem never won 


Jordans not in the league now, do these count?
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Posted: 6/6/2011 10:37:41 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Fairweatherfan:



Jason Terry is probably better than any of the players he mentioned


no kidding thats what i was thinking and Terry comes off the bench for Dallas, even though he should/could be a starter
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Posted: 6/6/2011 10:38:14 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by gridironguy:

the rockets 94 and 95 rosters had lots and lots of talent

you guys don't remember how well hakeems supporting cast rebounded, shot 3's, defended, and distributed

i'm probably forgetting players that were also there but i know i'm right so it does not matter

oh, and umm, ASTERISK with no jordan in the league those 2 yrs


Since Hakeem lead the team in all measurable defensive categories by a landslide as well as assists and rebounds, that's not really a case you can make. 

Seriously, you have a 7 footer leading the team in assists and steals in the playoffs and you still try to make a case he didn't do it alone?
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Posted: 6/6/2011 10:39:15 PM
so much contradiction in this thread by a certain someone.
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Posted: 6/6/2011 11:50:50 PM
I would say Isaiah Thomas would stand out even with Lambeer/Dantley/Aguirre/Dumars etc.
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Posted: 6/7/2011 12:29:33 AM

hakkem the dream had no other stars, role players but no stars

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Posted: 6/7/2011 12:54:13 AM
Sam Cassell was an offense juggernaut
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Posted: 6/7/2011 12:55:57 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by kiku124:

Sam Cassell was an offense juggernaut


something Kidd wish he can be. 

This is a stupid thread.  Kidd isnt what dirk needs.  He needs Paul/Deron/Westbrook.  A Defensive Point Guard who can score
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Posted: 6/7/2011 1:05:37 AM
Terry is a very good offensive player but he's nothing more then a spot up shooter who can't create his own dribble.  (Sam Cassell can)

Hakeem will go down as one of the best centers in the game. 

Sorry to Dirk but the Mavs just don't match up well against the Heat different from The Rockets matching up Extremely well against the Knicks.

Series is far from over so Dirk/Terry/Marion/JJ/Kidd can pick up the slack. 

Mav's really miss Caron Butler for this series



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Posted: 6/9/2011 11:23:14 AM

Gridiron, how can you take a single opinion that we differ on, and write off my entire post?  When you made your initial comment that no one player can do it alone, we are talking superstars right?  Parker and Ginobili were not superstars back then.  And even if our opinions differ on one issue, how can you ignore everything else I said in that post?  I proved you completely wrong.  Read it again, it disproves every point you made.  Honestly you are contributing so little to this thread, everyone would benefit if you would just stop posting.

ct1016, in sharp contrast to everything Gridiron has said, you actually make some intelligent points about Lebron's full game impact versus D Wade's. I guess the debate really boils down to what really defines a superstar, and what you value more in a player when trying to win a championship.

Lebron is a complete player.  He can perform all facets of the game better than most players.  He is also in tremendous physical condition, and can play big minutes in 82 games a year.  In contrast, Wade has had injury problems at multiple points in his career, including the Boston and Chicago series this year, and as a result he doesn't play nearly as many minutes as Lebron.  All of the stats you post about Lebron leading minutes, assists, rebounds, etc. they are all indicative of the fact that Lebron is the more complete player, partially because he has had no health issues and he plays more minutes.  Lebron gives 100% effort to all aspects of the game.

However, when you talk about greatness in the modern day NBA, and winning championships, you think of guys like Jordan and Kobe (11 titles between them).  These guys weren't always posting triple doubles with 10 boards and 10 assists, but they were the best players on the court, and they are the ultimate 4th quarter competitors.

First of all, they are capable of playing the same defense and giving the same effort as Lebron.  Look at Kobe's Game 7 performance last year.  He couldn't buy a bucket, but his defense, rebounding, and foul shooting won the game.  Look at Wade's performance in this series.  His defensive energy is higher than Lebron's if you ask me.****  He is lightning quick, he makes steals, and creates transition points.  More importantly though. these guys have pure jump shots, can create their own opportunities, and strive under pressure. Watch Wade's 2006 finals performance.  You will NEVER see Lebron win a title for his team the way Wade did it.  Lebron is simply not capable of carrying a team on his back like that.  It was proven over 6 or 7 years in Cleveland.  Wade took a completely mediocre supporting cast and won 1 title in 6 or 7 years.  Lebron took a completely medicore supporting cast and won no titles in 6 or 7 years.

Here's how I boil down this whole issue.  If you are playing a complete regular season with the goal of reaching the playoffs, and you have the first pick in the draft, Lebron is your guy (or maybe Dwight Howard) because he is going to impact every single game for a full 82 games.  He is going to score, recound, assist, play defense, etc.  But if you are heading into the playoffs, and you are drafting 1 player to win you a title, Lebron and Howard are not your first two picks.  Lebron is getting all the hype, but there are two players in this series alone who are better.  Dwayne Wade and Dirk Nowitski are both far more valuable to a team trying to win an NBA title.  They may not post the minutes that Lebron posts, but they are going to carry a team on their back in the 4th quarter.  When there is 10 seconds left on the clock, all of their teammates will be looking to these two people to bring the game home.  Wade is Superman, Lebron is the sidekick.

***Footnote to my defensive comments.  Lebron played great defense down the stretch on D Rose last series, and now everyone is talking about his impact on that side of the floor.  But if you look at Lebron in these finals, Terry and Marion are averaging 15 and 16 ppg, in 32 and 36 minutes.  Lebron is only averaging 17 ppg in 44 minutes.

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Posted: 6/9/2011 11:41:26 AM
Thread title made me LOL.
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#96
Posted: 6/10/2011 10:03:05 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by gridironguy:

the rockets 94 and 95 rosters had lots and lots of talent

you guys don't remember how well hakeems supporting cast rebounded, shot 3's, defended, and distributed

i'm probably forgetting players that were also there but i know i'm right so it does not matter

oh, and umm, ASTERISK with no jordan in the league those 2 yrs


i am from houston and our team was not stacked. it all revolved around hakeem. without him and his dream shake we were nothing.  and we got drexler towards the end of his career and yes was good but not THAT GREAT PLAYER he used to be. maxwell was a crazy guy, kenny smith was average at best, otis thorpe was a joke ( just a good rebounder), sam cassell was clutch and so was horry, but the elie was the reason why we won the kiss of death
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Posted: 6/10/2011 11:27:19 AM

Obviously, Hakeem was the absolute key to the Rockets success championships but he did have alot of help though no real stars. Just a solid group of guys who had alot of heart, played hard & could all do different things. They meshed real well with their inside/outside game spearheaded by Hakeem & all he could do. Thorpe was good defensively & great on the boards (& could give ya 10/15pts) which freed up Olajuwon to do more things. Cassell was fearless, could distribute & hit open shots, but still only only a rookie in '94/'95. Smith, Mad Max, Horry & Elie (& lil Scotty Brooks off the bench) could all hit 3's & Max (as long as he stayed outa jail which was most of the time, lol) could also play some great 1 on 1 D (gave Jordan some trouble in reg season gms) & penetrate/finish well at times when needed.

Drexler added alot in '95/'96, but still wasn't the player he'd been earlier in Portland. Was just good overall blend of talent, heart & will to win team-wise but without Hakeem, they obviously go nowhere. Imo, he's 1 of the top 3/4 centers of all-time. We never got alot of credit for those 2 titles cuz Jordan wasn't around & folks used to say I was nuts, but never thought it was a foregone conclusion that the Bulls with Jordan would have beaten Houston in those years. Hard to go against Jordan & his will in a finals matchup, but Hou had the tools to get it done & Olajuwon always gave 'em fits in reg season matchups which they usually split. Think it would have been alot closer than most think -

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Posted: 6/10/2011 11:37:41 AM
Lebron deserves to be critized.He has only himself to blame for putting himself in this spot.He is under acheiving and thats a fact!!
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Posted: 6/10/2011 12:23:40 PM

Personally I think Lebron could have won a title his last year in Cleveland but decided to quit in the playoffs to make it easier for him to leave.  At times in this Dallas series he has taken himself out of the game and hasn't contributed anything to help them win a championship...especially in the fourth quarter.  Not sure who he will blame when Dallas beats them here in the finals. 

As far as the Kevin Garnett issue teaming up with Allen and Pierce...yes he was traded.  The bigger point I'd like to mention is he didn't collude with Allen/Pierce to put that team together unlike Wade/Bosh/James.

 

 

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#100
Posted: 6/10/2011 12:43:55 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by kiku124:



something Kidd wish he can be. 

This is a stupid thread.  Kidd isnt what dirk needs.  He needs Paul/Deron/Westbrook.  A Defensive Point Guard who can score


You are a complete dumbass, at least when you try to talk NBA.
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