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Author: [College Football] Topic: Is Newton the best college we have seen?
BillyBuck send a private message View Space | Friends | Playbook |
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#76
Posted: 12/10/2010 12:56:58 AM
mine goes to vince young

may not be the best player but please do not forget...

doug flutie - best with less

tebow was awesome but he also had a TON of talent around him a lot more than Newton


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#77
Posted: 12/10/2010 3:50:23 AM
How did VY not have talent around him?
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#78
Posted: 12/10/2010 4:38:29 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by nostradamus12:

funny AL was just reading my mind about Walker....beast played 3 seasons each season over 1500yds rushing including 1600+ as frosh (4 200 yd games) leading to national title and 1891 as soph, Jackson when healthy was dominating as well with 4300 over 3 healthy yrs





great minds, yada yada... i agree also that for a single season it is hard to think of anybody who would top Cam Newton... which leads me to wonder how anyone is even taking wagers on him to win the Heisman...

Walker and Bo Jackson are the first two that come to mind... Bush has to be in the conversation... Tebow, Young and Newton probably top the list of QBs...

there's another guy by the name of Manning who did not win any titles (although neither has Cam)... but i believe Manning stayed the full 4 years... and was pretty decent...
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#79
Posted: 12/10/2010 12:13:08 PM
Cam Newton is the best of my lifetime. And I'm gonna make a contentious point here, but I truly believe this: Cam Newton would be the best player in college football AT ANY POSITION (except kicker and maybe corner).

If he played defensive end, he would be the best DE in college. Linebacker. Running back. Safety. Anywhere.

6'6" 250 and speed and strength like that... sheeyit.


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#80
Posted: 12/10/2010 12:25:36 PM
I coached in the SEC(baseball) and one thing you run into in extremely talented conferences, is short memory disease.  So many times I would say "this is the best hitter I have ever seen" but then I'd go back and watch video of Todd Walker from LSU or Barry Bonds at Arizona St and so on and it would remind me there have been great and will be future great players.  To answer the question, it's hard to say it with all the energy some of these guys are saying, but you can see by the different posts, there have been some great ones.  The reason Cam Newton can be in the discussion is because he took a team that's 6-6 without him and may win the national championship.  Not many of those aforementioned players were alone.  Cam Newton is treating the SEC like a high school league where your best player gets in the shot gun, points where he going, and goes there.  And nobody can stop him.  Patrick Peterson was just awarded Best Defensive Player in the country last night, in the country, and Cam Newton treated him like his B*^&%
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#81
Posted: 12/10/2010 1:49:40 PM
He is very very very good.

Not sure about the best ever.
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#82
Posted: 12/10/2010 3:28:01 PM
I would say michael vick. Vick was better than vince young if your going to compare those 2. Vick was just unreal. Best ive seen
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#83
Posted: 12/10/2010 8:55:44 PM

Hands down best player we have seen in 10 years, which is saying a lot.  I think you have to qualify if we are saying best at a point in time, or best career. 

If anyone is a baseball fan and familiar with Bill James, he ranks players from different eras and does it 2 ways.... what he calls 'peak value' (ie. how good the player was at their best) and 'career value' (how good they were based on their entire body of work.  For example, Joe Morgan might be 1st on the peak value list for 2b based on his MVP seasons, but 3rd on the career list behind a Honus Wagner type played based on total career.  

IMO, Cam is very high on the 'peak value' list based on just this year, like Marcus Dupree....

Can't believe it took 69 posts for someone to mention archie griffin, BTW, who still is the only 2-time winner, but I have to agree that Hershel and Bo are the best I have seen....

Great thread  

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#84
Posted: 12/11/2010 3:06:28 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Johnnynumbers:

Hands down best player we have seen in 10 years, which is saying a lot.  I think you have to qualify if we are saying best at a point in time, or best career. 

If anyone is a baseball fan and familiar with Bill James, he ranks players from different eras and does it 2 ways.... what he calls 'peak value' (ie. how good the player was at their best) and 'career value' (how good they were based on their entire body of work.  For example, Joe Morgan might be 1st on the peak value list for 2b based on his MVP seasons, but 3rd on the career list behind a Honus Wagner type played based on total career.  

IMO, Cam is very high on the 'peak value' list based on just this year, like Marcus Dupree....

Can't believe it took 69 posts for someone to mention archie griffin, BTW, who still is the only 2-time winner, but I have to agree that Hershel and Bo are the best I have seen....

Great thread  

I just dont see how newton is better than 99-2000 vick
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#85
Posted: 12/11/2010 4:35:15 AM
One of the best players? No. 

One of the biggest frauds? Yes. 

Scam Newton is a joke. 
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#86
Posted: 12/18/2010 1:05:58 AM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by RedDustRising:

Cam Newton is the best of my lifetime. And I'm gonna make a contentious point here, but I truly believe this: Cam Newton would be the best player in college football AT ANY POSITION (except kicker and maybe corner).

If he played defensive end, he would be the best DE in college. Linebacker. Running back. Safety. Anywhere.

6'6" 250 and speed and strength like that... sheeyit.


Just might be havin' some valium sprinkled on your popcorn, pawdnah?

Seriously, your "contentious statement" is the one highlighted: "Cam Newton is the best of my lifetime. ".

1) You're not dead yet; 2) The statement is "over the top" clearly, given the fact that if you look (purely) at stats, Cam Newton is not even leading his own SEC in QB categories you normally associate with a clearly dominant player at that position. Case in point:

1) Yards per game: 199 yards per game is the 6th best in his Conference.

2) He has been sacked 21 times. This is average, nothing spectacular for a mobile QB. We should expect a number in the teens, especially since three of his games were against Southern schools that were revenue games only, that is scrimmages to release the pressure from the schedule for the players and so on.

3) He only completed 165 passes, also about 6th in the Conference. Quantity is not always quality, but again, hard to see Jeremiah Masoli ahead of cam with 167 completed passes.

4) Does he always play a COMPLETE GAME? Isn't that the mark of the greatest player in a lifetime--to give 100% every play? He has some signature wins late in the season, and his 2nd H vs Alabama was a showcase. Yet, if you saw the 1st H vs Alabama, and the game were stopped at that point, the entire nation (the nation that thinks not sleeps might have concluded right then and there that Alabama's McClroy should be the "overlooked" Heisman candidate. Newton was ineffective, at least neutralized. McCelroy was outplaying him and appeared "unstoppable" and not vice-versa.

You are very supportive of the Heisman voters, and they thank-you for your support.

Cam deserved it--that is my opinion also. Who else really?

4-5 games in the SEC can decide a Heisman winner--that's the reality we have right now.in college FB.

But 4-5 games cannot make the best player of your lifetime--unless you were dying tomorrow (or before the NC game?).

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#87
Posted: 12/18/2010 1:24:27 AM
Newton is damn impressive,  but his body work (not saying he isn't badass this year) is one year.  I think Tebow and both #34's can gie him a run as the best.  Herschel should've gotten 2 Heismans,  but that was back when Freshmen had no chance.  Good debate. 
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#88
Posted: 12/18/2010 1:27:06 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by ClubDirt:

charlie ward in his last year was the best college qb i've ever seen, at least for a season.  newton reminds me of ward, he's just s smooth and doesn't get rattled, throws well and can obviously run.  i'd say it's close.  
i think it's a good comparison because they are both basically one year qb's.  

i'd say ward was a better scrambler for his size but newton can make up for it because he's so big.  passing was about even.  i guess i'd have to go with newton because he's basically like charlie ward except much bigger.  

i'd take newton over young and tebow any day.  i think newton does just about everything better than tebow did.   
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#89
Posted: 12/18/2010 9:35:54 AM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by RedDustRising:

Cam Newton is the best of my lifetime. And I'm gonna make a contentious point here, but I truly believe this: Cam Newton would be the best player in college football AT ANY POSITION (except kicker and maybe corner).

If he played defensive end, he would be the best DE in college. Linebacker. Running back. Safety. Anywhere.

6'6" 250 and speed and strength like that... sheeyit.


He had less pass completions than Masoli, only 165.

He was sacked 21 times losing 139 yards (very average for a "fleet of foot" QB

He had less than 200 yards per game, good for 6th best in the SEC alone.

3 of his games were against "filler schools" and only 4 games versus ranked opponents, all within his own conference--ie,, teams that his coaches knew very well, therefore NO SURPRISES.

The "signature game" everyone talks about (including myself admittedly) was the game vs. Alabama (the only game I watched all season from beginning to end). Cam Newton in the first half looked dogged and harassed. He was outplayed by McCelroy of Alabama. he looked out of it. It was obvious the 2nd H was a complete reversal. But the greatest players DO NOT RELY on "coaching adjustments" to bail them out or settle the score. And great players don't play hard and focused every single play.

Now that the two SEC games are over and time has passed, I can say definitively that CAM NEWTON IS NOT THE GREATEST PLAYER at all. He is an Auburn great player, that is all.

Aside from your admiration of his physique (which is another question entirely of itself), do you not feel you exaggerated just a bit?

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#90
Posted: 12/18/2010 9:48:15 AM

Just sprinkled some magic salt on my "palomitas."

Meant to say:"And great players play hard and focused every single play, don't they?"

 

Is everyone in America ok with the idea that a guy can just fail to get a first down for the longest behind time on the road, leaving his defense out there...get behind by 3-4 scores before he pulls his head out of his behind, or busts his behind?.

 What has America come to when 50% is called "great?" One half of greatness=50%, doesn't it?

He does not play every single play with full intense effort. His stats reveal it.

He did the job--just "good enough." Just good enough is not greatness in my book. Americans think their cars from Detroit are just "good enough."

Yeah, they're just good enough to be smashed scrap metal in about 1000 days or 3 -5 years on average,.Just like Cam? You love one year, ok. Did he even do two years? Is he living off of "surprise--surprise--surprise" a new QB for your eyes. We've all seen SEC QBs dominate one year before coaches adjust to them.

This layoff is gonna hurt Cam Newton, and the surprise of Oregon's offense will be too far removed from SEC experience to be controllable.

One half will not be enough. But that I'm afraid, is all he may give you, because it's all he has given you up to this point.

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#91
Posted: 12/18/2010 10:23:20 AM

cam newton was arrested for  being in possession of stolen property, which makes me laugh my god damn behind off- now this guy wins the Heisman trophy???

   and you guys wanna bet Aurburn - 3 ???    good  Luck--

   the trends with Heisman trophy winners don;t support this ... tell mein the past 10 years how many teams with a Heisman trophy won the title...

   Oregon + 3  

and a ML play as well      

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#92
Posted: 12/18/2010 10:24:40 AM
oregon _  +  under looks like the plays                   
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#93
Posted: 8/28/2011 1:32:43 AM

I saw Earl Campbell in 1977 as a college player, on the field, as a kid.  I saw him again in 1982, as a professional on the field as a freshman in college.  When I say on the field, I mean just that: I was on the field, during the game, watching greatness. 

Earl would mop Cam off the field -- by that I mean, would completely destroy Cam one on one in any situation whether reliant on speed, quickness, strength, collision, etc. Cam will never make a significant mark in the nfl, IMHO.

GWJTF

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#94
Posted: 8/28/2011 2:24:18 AM

Comparing the dream seasons

Rushing Yards

VY 1050 6.8 yards per carry

Cam 2,473 5.6 yards per carry

 

Passing Yards

VY 212 of 325 65.2% 3036 yards, 9.3 yards per attempt

Cam 185 of 280 66.1% 2,854 yards, 10.2 Yards per attempt,

 

 

It would appear on paper that VY had the better season but it is certainly debatable.  Young's junior year was certainly the greatest season that I ever saw.

 

And Texas got Young at a fraction of the cost.

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#95
Posted: 8/28/2011 2:25:50 AM
Cam Newton rushing yards should read 1,473
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#96
Posted: 8/28/2011 12:04:37 PM

Love this thread...brings back memories, wish it was started in July.  Had Oregon blocked that field goal and won the game in OT, this conversation wouldn't be taking place.  But in the end Cam got the job done

As soon as I read Eric Crouch I thought of Frazier and Charlie Ward. Although Frazier won a championship and not a Heisman, I believe he was hurt and came in the game in the 4th qtr as fresh legs to seal the deal.

I have a soft spot for Doug Flutie, I know he is not the same make up of Cam, but the hail mary vs Miami will go down as the greatest play ever.

Defensively, I can't believe nobody said Brian Bosworth.  Two time Butkus winner and leader of the Sooners '85 championship team. (Horrible pro & actor) 

Flutie and Bos, as good of players as they were, had personality that made the game fun to watch for a new generation of fans.

Being to young to see Thorpe, Brown, O'Brien

Honorable mentions to many to list but personal favorites

Terrell Buckley FSU

Steve Emtman UW

 

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#97
Posted: 8/28/2011 7:10:37 PM

glad to see this thread back as well. 

One point that I think should be added is that a few of these players lose value IMO because of the GREAT teams they played on...Tommy Frazier for example was a fantastic player, but was lucky to be at the helm of a couple of Nebraska machines that made him better (I would have to check but I think he played behind Dave Remington at C, who was probably one of the greatest OL of all time in CFB.)

Another one that i would have to take points off of is Archie Griffin, only because of the great OL play he played behind.  That doesn't take away from his individual greatness, but IMO, he was not as dominant as Hershel or Bo for example.

I think the way Cam took apart the SEC, and carried Auburn to the title definitely puts him in the conversation, and I think he will prove to be a good pro as well, but time will tell.

Either way, I'm fired up for a new season of CFB!!

LETS GET THE SEASON STARTED WITH SOME WINNERS

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#98
Posted: 8/28/2011 11:02:58 PM
when in doubt.....go old school....

CN...since only played 1 year maybe doesn't belong in discussion  with guys that did it over 3-4 years....but maybe greatest season ever no doubt

Defense.....!
Hugh Green
person Butkus
Lee Roy Selmon
Rich Glover
Tommy Nobis (went both ways)

*Earl Campbell maybe a better LB than RB....seriously
shoulda seen him in high school

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