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Author: [NBA Betting] Topic: A logical look at the Kobe vs. MJ debate
Ashton_Grewal send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook |
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#1
Posted: 6/19/2010 3:43:17 PM
This is the topic dejour, especially after Marcus Jordan – MJ’s youngest son – threw his two cents in on the debate. And even though Marcus, who was 8 years old when His Airness won his last NBA ring, knows his dad better than most people do, I think it’s time he let the grownups talk.

First of all, I should address how I enter this discussion. Michael Jordan was my first hero and he’s the reason why I fell in love with sports. That being said, while I thought the guy was faultless in my youth, I’m old enough now to realize that as good of a basketball player he was, he’s probably an even greater fool.

Now, let’s move on.

It’s my contention Kobe Bryant, who’s still young enough to surpass Jordan’s six NBA championships, will never be as good as Michael was.

I think we all need to think back on Kobe a little bit more. Sure he’s won five rings, but he also lost twice when his side was the overwhelming favorite. Do you think Michael, paired with Shaquille O’Neal, would ever have lost the Pistons?

Kobe’s competitive fire is unmatched in the league today, but it’s not even a spark compared to MJ’s bonfire. I remember that Game 7 in 2006 against the Suns. The one where Kobe scored one point and took just three shots in the second half of a blowout.

Phil Jackson was telling his star to trust his teammates and look for them. Kobe was pissed and decided to make a point. He carried the look that said, “See what friggin happens when I let these clowns shoot” on his face.

He was just as bad in the 2004 Finals against the Pistons. Detroit couldn’t handle Shaquille O’Neal in the paint but Kobe refused to yield to the Big Fella on the big stage again. It was his team, and the Lakers were going to win or lose with Bryant leading the attack.
Look back at the numbers. Kobe, despite shooting at a 38 percent clip, averaged 22.6 compared to Shaq’s 16.8. And Shaq was killing the Pistons in the paint (63 percent field goal percent).

It took the starless Pistons just five games to dispel of the heavily favored Lakers.

That’s not how Michael rolled. He pitched a perfect game in the NBA Finals (six for six) and did it without an elite big man.

Look, Kobe did and still does some amazing things. He’s a better shooter than Michael ever was and maybe even a better rebounder too. But there is no way in hell you can ever say Kobe is a better player than Jordan.

Sports writers know it. Michael won five regular season MVP awards and he probably should have won in ’93 over Barkley and ’98 over Malone. Kobe has one MVP award. One.

Kobe lovers will say that he deserved a couple others back when Steve Nash was cleaning house for being the best player in the league even though his team struggled to reach .500. You know an Alex Rodriguez Texas Rangers MVP acknowledgement. Sorry guys this ain’t baseball.

You want an MVP award? Win 55 games in the regular season and then we’ll talk.

Kobe’s got two Finals MVPs and you could make an argument that Pau Gasol was more deserving of the award from this past Finals.

Michael, he’s got six of those little golden trophies, and no one could ever argue that he wasn’t the best player on the court for every minute of every Finals game he ever played.

Really, this debate boils down to one simple question: If you’re down five points with three minutes left in the fourth quarter, on the road in an elimination game and I told you, you could have Kobe or Michael (both in their prime), which one would you take?
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#2
Posted: 6/19/2010 4:54:25 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Ashton_Grewal:

This is the topic dejour, especially after Marcus Jordan – MJ’s youngest son – threw his two cents in on the debate. And even though Marcus, who was 8 years old when His Airness won his last NBA ring, knows his dad better than most people do, I think it’s time he let the grownups talk.

First of all, I should address how I enter this discussion. Michael Jordan was my first hero and he’s the reason why I fell in love with sports. That being said, while I thought the guy was faultless in my youth, I’m old enough now to realize that as good of a basketball player he was, he’s probably an even greater fool.

Now, let’s move on.

It’s my contention Kobe Bryant, who’s still young enough to surpass Jordan’s six NBA championships, will never be as good as Michael was.

I think we all need to think back on Kobe a little bit more. Sure he’s won five rings, but he also lost twice when his side was the overwhelming favorite. Do you think Michael, paired with Shaquille O’Neal, would ever have lost the Pistons?

Kobe’s competitive fire is unmatched in the league today, but it’s not even a spark compared to MJ’s bonfire. I remember that Game 7 in 2006 against the Suns. The one where Kobe scored one point and took just three shots in the second half of a blowout.

Phil Jackson was telling his star to trust his teammates and look for them. Kobe was pissed and decided to make a point. He carried the look that said, “See what friggin happens when I let these clowns shoot” on his face.

He was just as bad in the 2004 Finals against the Pistons. Detroit couldn’t handle Shaquille O’Neal in the paint but Kobe refused to yield to the Big Fella on the big stage again. It was his team, and the Lakers were going to win or lose with Bryant leading the attack.
Look back at the numbers. Kobe, despite shooting at a 38 percent clip, averaged 22.6 compared to Shaq’s 16.8. And Shaq was killing the Pistons in the paint (63 percent field goal percent).

It took the starless Pistons just five games to dispel of the heavily favored Lakers.

That’s not how Michael rolled. He pitched a perfect game in the NBA Finals (six for six) and did it without an elite big man.

Look, Kobe did and still does some amazing things. He’s a better shooter than Michael ever was and maybe even a better rebounder too. But there is no way in hell you can ever say Kobe is a better player than Jordan.

Sports writers know it. Michael won five regular season MVP awards and he probably should have won in ’93 over Barkley and ’98 over Malone. Kobe has one MVP award. One.

Kobe lovers will say that he deserved a couple others back when Steve Nash was cleaning house for being the best player in the league even though his team struggled to reach .500. You know an Alex Rodriguez Texas Rangers MVP acknowledgement. Sorry guys this ain’t baseball.

You want an MVP award? Win 55 games in the regular season and then we’ll talk.

Kobe’s got two Finals MVPs and you could make an argument that Pau Gasol was more deserving of the award from this past Finals.

Michael, he’s got six of those little golden trophies, and no one could ever argue that he wasn’t the best player on the court for every minute of every Finals game he ever played.

Really, this debate boils down to one simple question: If you’re down five points with three minutes left in the fourth quarter, on the road in an elimination game and I told you, you could have Kobe or Michael (both in their prime), which one would you take?


You shouldn't have even taken it there. Your thinking is totally flawed. Yes, Kobe has lost twice in the Finals, but all that means is that he's made one more Finals appearance than Jordan. Is reaching the Finals and losing not better than not even getting there at all? You can't hold it against Kobe for getting there and losing, especially if he obtains that sixth ring, at which point he would have as many titles as Jordan and at least two more Finals appearances.

Also, your hypothetical regarding MJ and Shaq is a logical fallacy. The implication you are clearly attempting to make is that there is no possible way MJ would have lost to the Pistons had he been paired with Shaq, yet there is no possible way you would be able to prove your assumption true.
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#3
Posted: 6/19/2010 4:59:04 PM
The title of your thread claims that the post to follow will be "logical" look at the Kobe versus MJ debate. Only it is anything but; it is a completely biased and skewed look.
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#4
Posted: 6/19/2010 5:08:50 PM

I have to agree with what you said!

"It’s my contention Kobe Bryant, who’s still young enough to surpass Jordan’s six NBA championships, will never be as good as Michael was." "quote",  I hear ya! They are not really in the same era! Michael had his style and Kobe has his! Im no fan of Kobe, but I respect him, and his ability to take over a game! MJ could seemingly EVERTIME" he needed to in BIG GAMES stepped it up! The reason Jordan wasnt in the playoffs playerto score more than 8 3 pointers! MJ got it there anyway he could, normally in dramatic style, and Kobe held the ball anmd looks like he has learned now you cant win it everynight ! I dont think he can ever SURPASS MJ! The mold of the modern superstar!  

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#5
Posted: 6/21/2010 2:18:44 AM
I would always take MJ to try to win a game...

MJ has never lost a finals...

We have seen Kobe, lose, pout, give up, argue, stop the entire game for him to sit on the floor making a scene with a call he disagrees with...

MJ was too busy trying to win...


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#6
Posted: 6/21/2010 2:59:03 AM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by JumboDaddy:



You shouldn't have even taken it there. Your thinking is totally flawed. Yes, Kobe has lost twice in the Finals, but all that means is that he's made one more Finals appearance than Jordan. Is reaching the Finals and losing not better than not even getting there at all? You can't hold it against Kobe for getting there and losing, especially if he obtains that sixth ring, at which point he would have as many titles as Jordan and at least two more Finals appearances.

Also, your hypothetical regarding MJ and Shaq is a logical fallacy. The implication you are clearly attempting to make is that there is no possible way MJ would have lost to the Pistons had he been paired with Shaq, yet there is no possible way you would be able to prove your assumption true.

precisely

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#7
Posted: 6/21/2010 6:48:11 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by tyr139:

precisely

Doesn't matter b'c that's one little part of the argument and just b'c it can't be proven also means it can't be unproven so both are pointless

MJ was far better and will always have the mental and physical edge over Kobe

just visit my thread and you'll know what even Kobe thinks

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#8
Posted: 6/21/2010 6:48:37 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Ashton_Grewal:

This is the topic dejour, especially after Marcus Jordan – MJ’s youngest son – threw his two cents in on the debate. And even though Marcus, who was 8 years old when His Airness won his last NBA ring, knows his dad better than most people do, I think it’s time he let the grownups talk.

First of all, I should address how I enter this discussion. Michael Jordan was my first hero and he’s the reason why I fell in love with sports. That being said, while I thought the guy was faultless in my youth, I’m old enough now to realize that as good of a basketball player he was, he’s probably an even greater fool.

Now, let’s move on.

It’s my contention Kobe Bryant, who’s still young enough to surpass Jordan’s six NBA championships, will never be as good as Michael was.

I think we all need to think back on Kobe a little bit more. Sure he’s won five rings, but he also lost twice when his side was the overwhelming favorite. Do you think Michael, paired with Shaquille O’Neal, would ever have lost the Pistons?

Kobe’s competitive fire is unmatched in the league today, but it’s not even a spark compared to MJ’s bonfire. I remember that Game 7 in 2006 against the Suns. The one where Kobe scored one point and took just three shots in the second half of a blowout.

Phil Jackson was telling his star to trust his teammates and look for them. Kobe was pissed and decided to make a point. He carried the look that said, “See what friggin happens when I let these clowns shoot” on his face.

He was just as bad in the 2004 Finals against the Pistons. Detroit couldn’t handle Shaquille O’Neal in the paint but Kobe refused to yield to the Big Fella on the big stage again. It was his team, and the Lakers were going to win or lose with Bryant leading the attack.
Look back at the numbers. Kobe, despite shooting at a 38 percent clip, averaged 22.6 compared to Shaq’s 16.8. And Shaq was killing the Pistons in the paint (63 percent field goal percent).

It took the starless Pistons just five games to dispel of the heavily favored Lakers.

That’s not how Michael rolled. He pitched a perfect game in the NBA Finals (six for six) and did it without an elite big man.

Look, Kobe did and still does some amazing things. He’s a better shooter than Michael ever was and maybe even a better rebounder too. But there is no way in hell you can ever say Kobe is a better player than Jordan.

Sports writers know it. Michael won five regular season MVP awards and he probably should have won in ’93 over Barkley and ’98 over Malone. Kobe has one MVP award. One.

Kobe lovers will say that he deserved a couple others back when Steve Nash was cleaning house for being the best player in the league even though his team struggled to reach .500. You know an Alex Rodriguez Texas Rangers MVP acknowledgement. Sorry guys this ain’t baseball.

You want an MVP award? Win 55 games in the regular season and then we’ll talk.

Kobe’s got two Finals MVPs and you could make an argument that Pau Gasol was more deserving of the award from this past Finals.

Michael, he’s got six of those little golden trophies, and no one could ever argue that he wasn’t the best player on the court for every minute of every Finals game he ever played.

Really, this debate boils down to one simple question: If you’re down five points with three minutes left in the fourth quarter, on the road in an elimination game and I told you, you could have Kobe or Michael (both in their prime), which one would you take?
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#9
Posted: 6/21/2010 8:26:02 AM
Also, your hypothetical regarding MJ and Shaq is a logical fallacy. The implication you are clearly attempting to make is that there is no possible way MJ would have lost to the Pistons had he been paired with Shaq, yet there is no possible way you would be able to prove your assumption true.

True but saw both play and, I know it can't be proved, Jordan was better. 
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#10
Posted: 6/21/2010 9:08:28 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by mohjo:

Doesn't matter b'c that's one little part of the argument and just b'c it can't be proven also means it can't be unproven so both are pointless

MJ was far better and will always have the mental and physical edge over Kobe



The highlighted statement cuts no ice with logical reasoning.  So because your parish priest cannot scientifically prove there is a God, then it also cannot be unproven that God exists?  So where does the argument go from there?  Nowhere.  What does that "logic" do?  Nothing.

That said, I agree that Jordan had the mental edge over Kobe.  I've never seen Jordan pout to the point that his team lost or almost lost, like what Kobe did in this year's Game 4 vs Oklahoma in the first round. (Same garbage, Kobe was described by Phil to be taking many non-quality shots)


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#11
Posted: 6/21/2010 11:50:48 AM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by JumboDaddy:



You shouldn't have even taken it there. Your thinking is totally flawed. Yes, Kobe has lost twice in the Finals, but all that means is that he's made one more Finals appearance than Jordan. Is reaching the Finals and losing not better than not even getting there at all? You can't hold it against Kobe for getting there and losing, especially if he obtains that sixth ring, at which point he would have as many titles as Jordan and at least two more Finals appearances.

Also, your hypothetical regarding MJ and Shaq is a logical fallacy. The implication you are clearly attempting to make is that there is no possible way MJ would have lost to the Pistons had he been paired with Shaq, yet there is no possible way you would be able to prove your assumption true.

That's the point.....when saying someone is the greatest ever....you have to take everything into consideration.......is the boxer that went 20 - 0 in heavyweight fights better than the guy that went 30 - 2......I say YES....it is better to be a champion that never lost than to get to the stage and then lose it....particularly when you are favored to win it all.

But folks still keep focusing on titles won as the sole determinant of who is the best ever....if that was the case then it should be Bill Russell or some other Celtic great b/c they have the most rings........titles won and points scored are not the sole criteria that makes a baller the best ever...or in the case with MJ...the best athlete of all time as voted by sportswriters back in the year 2000.......MJ is regareded as the BEST perimeter defender of all time [led league in steals 3 seasons and is 2nd all time]

I use to look forward to his per game steal and "rock the baby to sleep" crown pleasing dunk......he did it at least one almost every game in his prime....truly put on a show.

If you take shot making ability and rings out of the equation, what is it that makes everyone say that Kobe is the greatest athlete of all time (Mj's title)?   Kobe's body of work does not include any other accomplishments that MJ has....and with the young studs in the league & at this stage in his career, I am not sure if Kobe can earn the regular season MVPs, scoring titles, steals titles, defensive player of year, more gold medals, etc..etc..etc...to become or be regarded the Kobe Bryant of all other sports like MJ is regarded...."this guy is the MJ of this sport or the MJ of that sport".....just don't ever hear folks saying that this guy is the Kobe Bryant of the sport.....and I don't think that is measured in rings earned (which is a team accomplishment)....that is a measure of the player and the player's game.

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#12
Posted: 6/21/2010 12:43:36 PM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by Borat38:



The highlighted statement cuts no ice with logical reasoning.  So because your parish priest cannot scientifically prove there is a God, then it also cannot be unproven that God exists?  So where does the argument go from there?  Nowhere.  What does that "logic" do?  Nothing.

That said, I agree that Jordan had the mental edge over Kobe.  I've never seen Jordan pout to the point that his team lost or almost lost, like what Kobe did in this year's Game 4 vs Oklahoma in the first round. (Same garbage, Kobe was described by Phil to be taking many non-quality shots)


I was trying to show how stupid his statement was that it couldn't be proven so I was showing his couldn't be proven leaving both arguments null and void

I just can't believe that Kobe would be the best player on the Dream Team of '92?

I don't think Jordan loses a home game in the Finals after a 26 pt lead

Those are just small reasons but like I was saying MJ dominated and put the pedal to the metal when it was needed unlike Kobe who minus Shaq those early years doesn't have 5 rings and closer to 2 IMO

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#13
Posted: 6/21/2010 1:07:00 PM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by Borat38:



The highlighted statement cuts no ice with logical reasoning.  So because your parish priest cannot scientifically prove there is a God, then it also cannot be unproven that God exists?  So where does the argument go from there?  Nowhere.  What does that "logic" do?  Nothing.

That said, I agree that Jordan had the mental edge over Kobe.  I've never seen Jordan pout to the point that his team lost or almost lost, like what Kobe did in this year's Game 4 vs Oklahoma in the first round. (Same garbage, Kobe was described by Phil to be taking many non-quality shots)


this is a poor analogy. do not comare God and the existence of God in terms of logic.

the point of this thread was to take a logical look at the MJ KB debate, however that piece of his argument with Shaq was pure speculation.

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#14
Posted: 6/21/2010 1:16:26 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by mohjo:

Doesn't matter b'c that's one little part of the argument and just b'c it can't be proven also means it can't be unproven so both are pointless

MJ was far better and will always have the mental and physical edge over Kobe

just visit my thread and you'll know what even Kobe thinks



Did you really just say that it can't be "unproven?" Are you serious? No one is trying to "unprove" (sic) anything.  And what do you mean "both are pointless?" Both what? The only "pointless"statement is the one that implies Jordan would not have lost to the Pistons had he been paired with Shaq. It is nothing more than speculation, with no basis in fact, and has no place in an intellectually honest debate.
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#15
Posted: 6/21/2010 1:20:34 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by mightiestmojo:

Also, your hypothetical regarding MJ and Shaq is a logical fallacy. The implication you are clearly attempting to make is that there is no possible way MJ would have lost to the Pistons had he been paired with Shaq, yet there is no possible way you would be able to prove your assumption true.

True but saw both play and, I know it can't be proved, Jordan was better. 


Congratulations. I saw both play as well, however, I was not attempting to make a case for either one being better. I was simply stating that the OP's argument was flawed logic. There are better ways to make a point.
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#16
Posted: 6/21/2010 1:29:59 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by ct1016:

That's the point.....when saying someone is the greatest ever....you have to take everything into consideration.......is the boxer that went 20 - 0 in heavyweight fights better than the guy that went 30 - 2......I say YES....it is better to be a champion that never lost than to get to the stage and then lose it....particularly when you are favored to win it all.

But folks still keep focusing on titles won as the sole determinant of who is the best ever....if that was the case then it should be Bill Russell or some other Celtic great b/c they have the most rings........titles won and points scored are not the sole criteria that makes a baller the best ever...or in the case with MJ...the best athlete of all time as voted by sportswriters back in the year 2000.......MJ is regareded as the BEST perimeter defender of all time [led league in steals 3 seasons and is 2nd all time]

I use to look forward to his per game steal and "rock the baby to sleep" crown pleasing dunk......he did it at least one almost every game in his prime....truly put on a show.

If you take shot making ability and rings out of the equation, what is it that makes everyone say that Kobe is the greatest athlete of all time (Mj's title)?   Kobe's body of work does not include any other accomplishments that MJ has....and with the young studs in the league & at this stage in his career, I am not sure if Kobe can earn the regular season MVPs, scoring titles, steals titles, defensive player of year, more gold medals, etc..etc..etc...to become or be regarded the Kobe Bryant of all other sports like MJ is regarded...."this guy is the MJ of this sport or the MJ of that sport".....just don't ever hear folks saying that this guy is the Kobe Bryant of the sport.....and I don't think that is measured in rings earned (which is a team accomplishment)....that is a measure of the player and the player's game.



Your analogy is absurd. How can you compare simply showing up for a boxing match to reaching the NBA Finals?  And how is it better to not even reach the Finals than to get there and to lose? You're penalizing Kobe for doing something MJ was never even able to accomplish--reach seven NBA Finals.  Are you saying you would hold Kobe in higher regard if--instead of reaching the Finals and losing--he didn't even manage to make the Finals at all? Is losing in the conference finals (or earlier) preferable to losing in the Finals? Is that what you're saying?
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#17
Posted: 6/21/2010 1:32:17 PM
To add on to the previous post, what would you say if Kobe goes on to win 10 titles? Would Jordan's six still be more impressive because it was 6-0 as opposed to 10-2 (or 10-3, etc.)?
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