Industry in distress: How did it come to this?

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Author: [The Archives] Topic: Industry in distress: How did it come to this?
Breaker PM Breaker
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Posted: 2/1/2007 6:21:11 PM
Exactly, Joe!
 
Along with that, there must be MILLIONS of us who wished something could be done, would love to get involved at some level, but just don't know how.
I was one of those untill today, but after your article and Matadors plan I have a clear vision on how we can turn all this around.
 
It will be a slow process, but it is definetly doable, getting more than a million people behind this by joining forces with other online gambling sites can certainly be done as long as somebody starts the effort and does it right. If you guys at Covers wind up doing that you will write history!
july4433 PM july4433
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Posted: 2/1/2007 7:30:51 PM
A well written article and a very good read. I still want to be called to serve on a jury for any kind of gambling offense, because I guarantee, I will hang that jury and a mis-trial will be declared or the verdict will be not guilty. To reach a guilty or not guilty verdict, a jury must be unanimous in their decision, otherwise a mis-trial will be declared, if the jury is deadlocked, and the judge decides that the jury deadlock cannot be broken. I wonder how many other potential jurors feel the same way that I do and have the firm conviction of their beliefs to carry it out in a court of law? I also thought about how the fall of Jack Abermoff and the decline of his "lobbying efforts" in Washington D.C.on behalf of the online gaming industry, also played a significant role in the setback to the internet gaming industry that we see today.    
Sammy PM Sammy
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Posted: 2/1/2007 7:44:04 PM
Great article....love the ideas thrown around in this thread.  Creating a website to bring us all together and create awareness for those less informed is a hell of a start.
 
Ponch PM Ponch
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Posted: 2/1/2007 7:49:05 PM

Cheers,
Ponch
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Posted: 2/1/2007 8:04:46 PM
devsfan1 PM devsfan1
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Posted: 2/1/2007 8:06:05 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by BetToWin:

w3rdv303, I don't think I read the same article as you.

it doesnt say gambling will be shut down, just that the ways to get money to offshore sportsbooks will be blocked.

nobodys going to stop gambling but it could get real tough to send money easily.

This is very similar to what appeared in the Wall Street Journal the other day, so it's not like this is the only place thinking about this stuff.




'
I agree..If the feds who I think have far bigger fish to fry but  waste time on trivial matters, create laws to make it inconvemnient to get money to offshore books I'll be dropping out of the on line betting fun...
This really sucks..I am one of those small dollar casual players that likes to have some action going..What the big deal is, I don't know..It's politics..
I throw this one directly at the feet of ultra right wing politicos who have to crawl into bed with. the Bible thumpers to get re-elected
devsfan1 PM devsfan1
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Posted: 2/1/2007 8:12:38 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by 3ptshooter:

Good article.  What you left out is the fact that this movement will assist in helping the big Vegas casinos get a toehold into online gambling.  Some have already either bought assets of offshore sites, or are researching possible investments.  The best bet is to buy the Vegas casino stocks, because they will benefit handsomely from online gaming.
That's fine..But those of us who live in states where gambling is all but illegal won't be helped no matter what the Vegas books do..I can't bet with them now and I don't expect to ever have that opportunity.
Trust me the feds will NEVER let sports betting on line out of Pandora's box...It's a miracle that in some states we can bet on the ponies thru our computers...IMO on line betting on the horses is neither enjoyed nor encouraged by Congress...The activity is merely tolerated....
What gal;ls me is how our friends across rthe Pond(UK) can walk out of the coffee shop and into a betting shop and wager on two dogs duking it out in the street....I try to get down a 10 dollar bet on the Mets and the morality police are beating down my front door..It's illogical..
devsfan1 PM devsfan1
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Posted: 2/1/2007 8:22:44 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by JoeMacDonald:

sp57,

A few companies, sportingbet for one, have offered to submit to paying taxes.

The feds have avoided that question for now. As I mentioned in the column, up until now, the tone of the industry has always been, "You better tax us, because you can't stop us. We're getting rich no matter what you do, anyway."

You don't say that unless you are sure the other side has run out of bullets. They hadn't.

Maybe now would be a good time for a more conciliatory tone. something the politicians would find less threatening.

The EU is thinking of brining this topic up with the US. I hope they take a proper angle.
Here's my take on taxation of on line wagering...It won't happen..If on line wagering is regulated and taxed by thre feds thast forces Congress to legitimize the activity..Legislators representing conservative states with lots of evangelical Chrisitians might consider such recognition of on line wagering to be political suicide..The number one goal for any politician isn't to make a difference or to do some good for the people or any of those other tired assed cliches..Nope..The number gola is to do what ever it takes to get re-elected...
IMO no memeber of Congress in their right mind would introduce or sponsor any such Bill....Again, IMO....
devsfan1 PM devsfan1
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Posted: 2/1/2007 8:26:01 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by JoeMacDonald:

I guess the question is what would be more effective?

a) A boycott where nobody orders, or
b) A plan where everybody orders as usual, and then cancels on the same day (presumably before the deadline)

Both look pretty good to me, although "b" probably has a better chance of making the news
B won't happen..Once the Tciket os ordered there are no refunds..Subs can cancel but DTV keeps the cash
Sat PM Sat
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Posted: 2/1/2007 11:19:25 PM
It's about time Covers wrote an article about the situation.
the-profit PM the-profit
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Posted: 2/2/2007 1:29:42 AM
I am definitely not going to renew my Sunday Ticket, So tell me when am I am down with cancellation movement. But remember, Direct TV usually renews your sports packages automatically unless you cancel it. 
terezk PM terezk
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Posted: 2/2/2007 1:44:31 AM
in my mind the gov't just wants to get its part this industry,just like it did during prohibition. they need money to help fund the wat and decided that this is a good way to get some of that money.they are gona make it legal but they want us to suffer a bit. i think this article mad a lot of grear points as far as whats going on. it was well written.
TheMoneyShot PM TheMoneyShot
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Posted: 2/2/2007 2:16:08 AM
First of all I just want to say it's a great article. I just disagree with one paragraph...
 
"And while you, yourself, might be willing to jump through those hoops, I can tell you that you are in a small enough minority that the industry simply can`t survive on you and your likeminded friends. Not in its current state."
 
Of course after this paragraph at the ending of the story you did sort of correct yourself.
 
Maybe I read it wrong? Or took it the wrong way? But here's my take on it...
 
I honestly don't care if the entire "gambling industry" can survive or not offshore. What I will tell you is that 2 or 3 books will stay strong throughout this. These 2 or 3 books will most likely be TheGreek.com BetJamaica.com and or BetCris.com As far as I'm concerned that's all the offshore industry needs for USA Residents. What were we doing back in 1998? Think about it. What were you doing in 1998? There were only 3-5 legit books out there respectively. So big deal... 9-10 years later there's still only 3-5 books respectively... maybe even less? Point being... we sort of had that golden spoon in our mouths for the last 2 years or so. It was so easy to type, click, and send money to 1 out of the 500 books offshore. Now, all of the pretender books are gone... the remaining are the contenders... so use them.
 
My heart goes out to all the people who have money pending in a Neteller Account. That's a sad situation. I had $24,000 dollars sitting at a Costa Rican book back in 2004 and it was a VERY slow pay situation. My heart was in my throat... and I wanted to murder everyone in sight. (Not literally) but you get the idea. I guess my point is... after the Neteller situation is figured out are you going to keep gambling offshore? Of course you are! Time heals wounds. You're pissed off like a mothafu#$er right now but you eventually calm down and relax for a few months but you'll come back to an offshore book.
 
I think Neteller was the "gold spoon" in your mouth way of forwarding money. Next, was EChecks. That was way too easy. Once the USA government saw that... they said now wait just a fu#$ing minute we have no other choice but to try and detour this nonsense. The key word is detour and not STOP. They are winning the war right now... but they won't win the battle and never will.
 
I still have money in 4 books right now and I am quite confident the money isn't going anywhere. I believe the poster named "Pags" said it right... in another thread... "The only way to send money back years ago was with a Cashier's Check. You had to wait 5 business days for it to clear and then wait 5 business days for them to send a Cashier's Check back to you. It's old school... but it works! That's what we have to start doing... being more patient with things. The capper who does this for a living will put up with it... The capper who does it on a recreational basis more than likely won't put up with it.
 
Nevertheless, the day I see a newspaper clipping or an article that states a human being was prosecuted for gambling online in the comfort of his own home... "Is the Day I quit gambling offshore."
 
donnyguru PM donnyguru
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Posted: 2/2/2007 6:36:54 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Breaker:

Good point, alwayswin.
 
The gambling industry image is in great need of a positive boost.
At the same time as a big action against the NFL the gaming industry needs to do something that is both headline grabbing and positive.
Example, donating to a school or hospital, and at the same time explaining how much more could be done with tax dollars generated by regulated online gambling (reiterating it is already legal for horses and lotteries).
Or how about a charity online poker tournament, proceeds go to whatever good cause.


Beautiful.  This would be a great direction to take our efforts, particularly if we could generate an insanely large donation.  The image thing is very important here. 

I think the section of the public that has no dog in this fight sees online sports bettors and poker players as the same kind of degenerates as the slot players and Lotto chasers that the government acts as an enabler for.  The public relations challenge for our side is to show these activities as the skilled endeavors that they are, just like trading stocks or commodities, or baseball cards or beanie babys on ebay.  Some people make a tremendous living betting online.  Does anybody make any kind of a living betting the parasitic crap the US government sanctions?

My hobby is the NFL and I (usually) make a nice side income off my 365 day a year addiction to the news and happenings of the league, and I don't do fantasy football.  I cannot remotely fathom going back to the local.  So I am all in for any organized support for my hobby.

Great insight in this story and thread.  Thanks all.
donnyguru PM donnyguru
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Posted: 2/2/2007 7:43:49 AM
A bit off topic, but of course everyone realizes the multi millions the NFL makes off fantasy football?  People pay in money in an effort to WIN a much larger sum of money.  People root for guys on both teams.  People root for totally illogical strategy to be implemented.  AND THE LEAGUE PIMPS THIS LIKE IT WAS A VIRGIN HOOKER!

And the league thinks you and I are criminals? 

Maybe these hypocrites want to license sportsbooks too.    
TrickaC14 PM TrickaC14
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Posted: 2/2/2007 2:23:57 PM
games1 PM games1
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Posted: 2/2/2007 2:45:07 PM
maybe start with not signing up for NBA league pass, full court, gameplan, extra innings MLB, etc......?
Matador PM Matador
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Posted: 2/2/2007 6:40:27 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Breaker:

Good point, alwayswin.
 
The gambling industry image is in great need of a positive boost.
At the same time as a big action against the NFL the gaming industry needs to do something that is both headline grabbing and positive.
Example, donating to a school or hospital, and at the same time explaining how much more could be done with tax dollars generated by regulated online gambling (reiterating it is already legal for horses and lotteries).
Or how about a charity online poker tournament, proceeds go to whatever good cause.


How about a degenerates' charity car wash, proceeds to benefit Bulgarian orphans? We could all wear wife-beater shirts and speedos.

Seriously, I think we're getting a little off base here. I mean, we don't even have an organization yet. Certainly a charity event is not the place to start. PR is nice, but when it comes to influencing policy, it's all about numbers, economic clout, and a demonstrated strong commitment to the cause. Let's keep our eye on the ball.
Breaker PM Breaker
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Posted: 2/2/2007 7:59:18 PM
Agree
 
That's why I advocate a campaign on several fronts.
Have several events, like boycotting the NFL package, some charity stuff and one or two others, all happen at the same time.
Before that happens raise awareness by having thousands of us e-mail the major media outlets as well as certain politicians that might help us.
 
To accomplish that, we have to start somewhere, which is what Joe is working on with Covers.
 
The Garfather PM The Garfather
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Posted: 2/3/2007 2:11:18 AM
I refuse to be the guy that pisses on everybody's parade here, but I want to play devil's advocate on a couple points.

First, if there is anything worse than under-estimating your enemy, its over-estimating your own abilities.  Just how big of an impact would the Sunday Ticket cancellation really have?  I don't know, and won't pretend to know.  I love football, but I don't even have it, if there is a game I really need to see for some reason, I figure I can just go to a bar.  Do we have any concrete numbers on how many subscribers there are and do we have an estimate of how many of them have it for gambling purposes?  I have two friends that have the package, and each does it in order to be able to watch their favorite team who happen to reside on the east coast and don't get shown regionally with any regularity.  Only one of them bets and he doesn't cap the games, he just does small time bets for fun...which leads me to my next point.  If one out of every two subscribers (like in my case) bet then that would be a hugely noticeable impact if we were able to get them to cancel, but it might be presumptious to think that everyone who bets is "serious enough about betting" to stop watching their favorite teams in order to make a political statement.  I just worry that those of us reading this thread and coming to covers everyday are the absolute pinnacle (pardon the pun) of the online wagering community and perhaps we are not at all an accurate representation of the ferocity with which most bettors would be willing to defend our hobby/job.  There really aren't very many of us that have vested fiscal interest in seeing this continue.  The number of long-term winners is very small as we all know.  Often the government does things that seem like they are trying to protect us from ourselves and usually its just some silly law that accomplishes nothing (war on weed), but the horrific irony here is that for about 95% of folks, the gov't would in fact be protecting from themselves, whether they like it or not.  And with the issue of profitability in mind, I will segue to my second thought...

We need to find similar ways to make our own points.

We need to show:
- We are not degenerates.
- The children are safe
- We are not terrorists
- The USA is missing out on a whole pile of tax money
- that money could do a LOT of public good
- The current policy is hypocritical
- We won't be stopped

JoeMac, well I agree with about 5 of those 7. I realize that you are working in purely practical terms here and that is the basis with which you wrote the article, but a saying I heard as a child growing up really comes to mind: be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it.  I might be the first to say it in this thread, but I know I am not the only one thinking it - we don't want to be taxed.  That is simply too much of a compromise and should not be included in our final goal.  It will likely end up as part of the solution (should one come to fruition) anyway, but just as a matter of principle I don't think we should be asking for any part of it.  I think the tax-sheltered nature of this industry as much as anything was the big draw for most of us in the first place.  Not only are we watching sports that we love, but we were making tax-free income.  Its hard enough to make money at this as it is, if we are then turning around and giving a sizable cut of the profit to the government is it really worth it and would it be any easier than just working extra hard at a "regular" job to make more money?  I am not sure what the situation in Canada is with the taxation of gambling profit and how oppressive it is, but I think I speak for a vast majority of Americans when I say we want to keep all of our money or it may not be worth the bother and we can just find a local who won't fill out a W-2 for us.

With this in mind, I think our ultimate task is very difficult and very specific.  We want to legitimize this in people's minds, but not to the point that it is as well-accepted as say the stock-market, where it will be over-regulated and heavily taxed.  We need to come down somewhere in between child pornographers and stock brokers (like the way it was until a few months ago).  Its sort of like a satellite or spaceship in re-entry; if the angle is too steep we will burn up, if the angle is too shallow we will skip off the earth's thick atmosphere and shoot off further into space.  We want to put up the front that online gambling is valid, but that most are in it for recreational reasons.  We will mind our business if the government minds theirs.

Nice thread.
JoeMacDonald PM JoeMacDonald
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Posted: 2/3/2007 10:13:02 AM

Matador, you are absolutely correct in that arranging events is putting the cart before the horse. However, this thread is all about ideas, so anything, be it short or longterm, is welcome.

GarFather, great points.

Regarding Sunday Ticket... I am operating from hearsay here, but I heard on ESPN the other day that Sunday Ticket only has something like 2 Million subscribers. Yes, it seems like everybody we know is a subscriber, but that's because we all hang around with gamblers.

So if we do manage to arrange a boycott, then given the numbers in our community, we would represent probably 25-33% of Sunday Ticket's subscribers. Even if a small portion actually follow through, we could still knock 5-10% off their revenues. And I can tell you as a businessman, that 10% DOES get noticed.

As for taxation, well, they are doing it in the UK,, where the companies are taxed, not the players. Those companies are surviving quite well, and the vig is no different. The tax is absorbed by the companies and they seem to be able to afford it.

So I'm not afraid.

Canada is a bit different. Because we never had real sports gambling before, nobody knew to kick up a stink when the government started their sports lotteries with odds so terrible that it's effectively a tax on the stupid.

Luckily for Americans, they have sports gambling in Vegas, so the government can't get away with such thievery. Every now and then in Canada the feds try to tax somebody who got rich off sports gambling, but then people start threatening to try to write off their gambling losses, and that ends the issue.



K_Z_Z_A PM K_Z_Z_A
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Posted: 2/3/2007 3:02:59 PM
Good article.  The bottom line is though, unless tha gov't is going to through every single bank company owner in jail, or credit card company for that matter, this can't be stopped. 
Breaker PM Breaker
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Posted: 2/4/2007 3:06:10 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by JoeMacDonald:

Sometime in the next week, I'm going to sit down with some people here and we can decide exactly what we can do on our side to get things started.
 
Anything new on that yet, Joe?
SilnceOfTheXYvz PM SilnceOfTheXYvz
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Posted: 2/6/2007 7:34:14 PM
Regarding taxation.. If the gov't decides that this is a taxable vehicle and tax the gain..... dont they also have to allow us to claim losses on that same vehicle?
Breaker PM Breaker
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Posted: 2/6/2007 8:36:29 PM
You can, but only if your winnings excede your losses.
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