Immigration Issue

If you do post on the thread answer the questions. It is alright to add commentary on why you answer the way you do. In fact, I encourage it.

Should people coming into the country illegally be allowed to jump in front of the line?

Should people from Africa, Asia, and Europe be punished for following the rules?

Should all people coming in to the country learn English as a second language and American history?

If there is an influx of new citizens do you think this will have an effect on the economy and unemployment rate and will it overburden govt services (education, healthcare, etc)?

If amnesty is granted to people here illegally should we build a fence/beef up security on the border afterwards or should we keep things the way they are?

Should illegals that commit crimes in the U.S. be deported back to their home countries?

Should non-Americans in the country illegally have to report to the state/federal government?

Am I anti-immigration for bringing up these issues?

Should people coming into the country illegally be allowed to jump in front of the line?  i don't understand the question

Should people from Africa, Asia, and Europe be punished for following the rules?  i don't understand the question

Should all people coming in to the country learn English as a second language and American history? no and no

If there is an influx of new citizens do you think this will have an effect on the economy and unemployment rate and will it overburden govt services (education, healthcare, etc)? it depends.  if we go back to the old (and still current in many cases) model of home manufacturers, agriculture corporations and countless other big companies hiring as many illegals as they can at the expense of citizens, paying them cash under the table and not training and supervising them and not insuring them so the rest of us have to pay when they get injured at their dangerous jobs, then yes.  if companies actually pay, train, equip, insure and otherwise treat these people like regular people and take responsibility for them, then no.

If amnesty is granted to people here illegally should we build a fence/beef up security on the border afterwards or should we keep things the way they are? no

Should illegals that commit crimes in the U.S. be deported back to their home countries? depends on the crime

Should non-Americans in the country illegally have to report to the state/federal government? yes

Am I anti-immigration for bringing up these issues? no

If you do post on the thread answer the questions. It is alright to add commentary on why you answer the way you do. In fact, I encourage it.

Should people coming into the country illegally be allowed to jump in front of the line?

Only if they can make a killer burrito or taco.

Should people from Africa, Asia, and Europe be punished for following the rules?

If they are good at sports, no. Otherwise who cares. 

Should all people coming in to the country learn English as a second language and American history?

Yes, also all Government forms should be in English only....unless an immigrant is athletic or can make excellent cuisine. 

If there is an influx of new citizens do you think this will have an effect on the economy and unemployment rate and will it overburden govt services (education, healthcare, etc)?

More quality burritos and tacos can only help the economy and the unemployment rate. The downside is that it will definitely become a burden on healthcare from all those delicious carne asada filled foods. 

If amnesty is granted to people here illegally should we build a fence/beef up security on the border afterwards or should we keep things the way they are?

If we do, I don't think it needs to be that high of a fence. Canadians aren't exactly known to be really good at the high jump. I'm not even sure Steve Nash can dunk anymore. Drake might be able to get over it though. 

Should illegals that commit crimes in the U.S. be deported back to their home countries?

See burrito/taco/athlete comments above.

Should non-Americans in the country illegally have to report to the state/federal government?

It would be great to see the Government handle in increased work load given how efficient it is now. 

Am I anti-immigration for bringing up these issues?

Only if you hate delicious burritos and tacos.

1) no

2) no

3) yes to English, no to history (history is written by the winners and is only one side of a story.....ie...its not always the truth or contains spin

4) maybe- there already is an influx on a daily basis

5) build the fence/secure the border 1st then discuss amnesty

6) what are the current laws on the books?

7) see #6

8) no, its a discussion

 

 

 

 

tomatillo salsa verde  

Dirt: 

What are those legal channels if you live in Cuba?

What are those legal channels if you are in a country where you have become the enemy of an oppressive government?

What are those legal channels if you and your family are so poor that you cannot afford food or basic shelter?

What are those legal channels if you are trying to get your children away from a drug cartel?

What are those legal channels if you have a family member who will die within days unless they receive immediate help?

What are those legal channels when you come from a place where the police can't or won't help you?

 

For once in your life, try looking at the real world as opposed to your Fox News fairy tale.

what do you mean there is no mention of of legalizing people who came here legally.  we have hundreds of immigration laws in this country and many of them deal with giving citizenship to people who have come her legally.  happens every day.   

but to answer your question, no, illegals should not be able to get citizenship ahead of people here legally.

but there's another issue.  people assume we just pass a law and then everything just gets done.  we don't now, and have never, had the infrastructure in place to deal with the many illegals in this country.  as i understand it, there are two immigration courts in the entire state of florida to deal with deportation.  one in orlando and one in miami.  that's two immigration judges.  there are probably close to a million, maybe more, illegals in florida.  how do you think our system is going to deal with all of those people?

Train:

Notice how you didn't answer the question. Let me help you with that.

There isn't a legal channel in those situations.

It has nothing to do with being the world police. I am not suggesting that we should intervene in those countries. Nor am I suggesting that the borders should remain completely open for anyone to come in.

But that wasn't the point. You speak of legal channels. Those only exist for people who have the time (and thus whose lives aren't at stake).

Such channels don't exist for many and that was the point. Its not as if they have the time to submit forms for green cards and enter by plane 2 years later.

Should people coming into the country illegally be allowed to jump in front of the line? No, they should be caught and deported immediately, they broke the law.

Should people from Africa, Asia, and Europe be punished for following the rules? No, their applications for visas et al should be taken in order received.

Should all people coming in to the country learn English as a second language and American history? English yes, history no. They still have to pass a test for citizenship.

If there is an influx of new citizens do you think this will have an effect on the economy and unemployment rate and will it overburden govt services (education, healthcare, etc)? Of course, to think otherwise would be absurd. You cannot add 15-30 million people into the workforce, school system, welfare, etc without an effect.

If amnesty is granted to people here illegally should we build a fence/beef up security on the border afterwards or should we keep things the way they are? No amnesty ever, if you want to be a citizen there is a legal way to do that already. Build a fence as much as possible along our border, bring back troops from the many countries around the world where they aren't needed and have them secure the border.

Should illegals that commit crimes in the U.S. be deported back to their home countries? Yes after they serve their time. If caught coming back an automatic 10 year sentence. None of this catch and release BS for Mexican nationals.

Should non-Americans in the country illegally have to report to the state/federal government? No, they should be returned to their own country.

Am I anti-immigration for bringing up these issues? No, it's an important topic.

I realize my answers on deportation and the automatic 10 year sentence will rile up the more left leaning people on here, but sorry, that's just how I feel. Living in Phoenix for 16 years gave me a first hand look at how illegal immigration can be destructive to a city and a country.

I will always defend the rights of US citizens and legal residents over people here illegally. Illegals should not be able to get a job here and businesses that knowingly hire them should be shut down. There should be no illegals allowed in the public school system, they should not be allowed to buy homes or rent an apt, they definitely should not get a dime of welfare (and please spare me the argument that they don't get welfare). They should not be here!!

That being said, we need to have an easier way for people to come here legally and safely. No need for hundreds of people to die every year in the desert. There is a legal way now, but it takes way too long and the liits are too low. The person coming over must show a skill that is needed and prove that they will not be a drain on the welfare system. Our current guest worker programs are a joke. Make it easier for people to come here for work and the ability to return to their country as needed.

 

actually, dan, that's the most liberal (fiscally) post that's maybe ever been posted on this forum.  do you have any idea how much some of that, let alone all of it, would cost?  of course not, the liberal rightwing response to everything is just to throe as much money as possible and make government as big as possible for the things they want and whine about money spent on things they don't want. 

I think the cost would be offset by the savings of not having hundreds of thousands of troops overseas, higher employment rates for US citizens, less crimes across the board especially ID theft and eventually local, county and state resources used for fighting this issue will be greatly reduced.

Given the federal government's current bloated spending amounts and all the waste, one could easily find enough money to do as I suggested. There is enough money currently, it's just not spent correctly.

 

i don't even know where to start, but i'll try. 

let me give you an estimate of what it takes to deport one person. 

first, we need to find these people.  our current department (ICE) is so understaffed, that there are only a few people in each region responsible for this.  so, we'd have to fire thousands of new people to round up all of the illegals because they don't just walk up to the average police officer and declare themselves illegal.  who knows what that would cost.  maybe you bring some soldiers to do this but they would need to be trained in our immigration laws which would take a lot of time and cost a lot of money. 

ok, let's say we got a few.  deportation proceedings take about six months.  of course if you overloaded the system with as many deportations as you are asking for, that number would go way up to several years but let use a small number.  it costs around $30,000/ year to house an inmate according to the DOJ so let's use a conservative estimate of $15,000 for housing for each person while he awaits deportation.  that person will need a lawyer since we don't just put everyone who looks like a mexican in a truck and throw them over the texas border.  that should cost at least $3,000 per person.  the actual immigration court costs are something, let's say just $1,000 per person although they would be higher. 

once it is proven that the guy should be deported, then we have to transport him.  i know rightwingers think they all just go back to mexico but they actually would go back to a variety of different coutnries.  let's say the average cost of transportation is $2,000 per person.

so we're probably close at about $30,000 per person to deport them and i'm sure i'm leaving out a lot of costs.  this is incredibly unrealistic on the low end but we'll use it anyway.  now, how many illegals are there? well, no one knows.  but some estimate between 10 and 20 million.  let's say 15 million.  what is 15 million times $30,000? 

ok, so that's an incredibly low number but we'll use it anyway.  that gets them all back to wherever they came from.  and we haven't touched on your overly simplistic solution of bringing soldiers in to man the fence (after spending who knows how much training them).  so, as many people know, many of the people who are deported come right back.  many people who are deported have been deported at least once before.  so, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to spend those billions you ultra liberals want to spend to deport all of those people if they can come right back. 

so i guess we need to put up that fence.  do you know how long the US/mexican border is?  it's about 2,000 miles.  how much do you liberals think it will cost to put up a 2,000 mile fence.  of course you don't know because you liberals don't think about the cost. 

of course, while we are taking years and years to put up that expensive fence, all those people we deported for billions of dollars are coming back.  i guess you want to open the chckbook to deport them again. so, take that 15 million x $30,000+ figure and add a lot to it. maybe double or triple it. 

and once you built the 2,000 mile fence, someone needs to occupy it.  now we get to your solution.  just put soldiers there.  how many will we need to properly man a 2,000 fence?  how much will that cost.

what about the canadian border?  do you think we might see more illegal entries through that border if we make it harder to cross the mexican border?  your liberal answer is probably to fence that one off too.  it's only money.

i could go on and on.  but i'll stop and reiterate that your prior post is the most fiscally liberal post ever seen on the pages of the covers forum. 

I think this is brilliant.

I mean, everyone can understand the correlation between the ideas you have for immigration reform and reduction in troops overseas.

Not to mention that incredible savings by sending someone to prison for 10 years, then deporting them upon their release (by the way, you weren't suggesting sending them to prison for 10 years, then releasing them in society were you?)

And last but not least, you have just advocated for the idea that all those people on welfare want to work, they just can't because illegals took their jobs.

Its a suggestion not grounded in fact, but certainly in teaparty philosophy.

I look forward to your 305th post.  Have you ever thought about running for office?

I should have added, that if you stop the flow, make the punishment severe enough, the cost of having to arrest, jail, trial, deport illegals will drop dramatically. People talk of a mirrored trade policy with China, well let's do the same with Mexico on illegal invaders, except we will treat their nationals a bit better than they treat illegals from other countries.

We would also save billions by speeding up the deportation process of those currently in the system. We can deport those still serving their term per the Repatriation of Prisoners act. The practice of releasing people into the population and hoping they show up for their deportation trial is insane. The last report I saw showed approximately 23% of our prison system was foreign nationals. Plenty of money to be saved once you solve the problem.

If you can't see the connection in cost savings from having hundreds of thousands of troops overseas versus having them here domestically, I can't help you.

Yes you deport them. They don't necessarily have to serve their sentence here, we can send them back to their own country to server their term. A 10 year sentence for getting caught again will be a big deterent and greatly reduce illegal crossings. Also, if we make it easier for people to come here legally, there will be less of a need to do it ilegally.

I never said all people on welfare want to work and can't because of illegals, but common sense will tell you that if illegals aren't doing the jobs that Americans used to do, that more people would enter the work force. There was a time not too long ago that building houses, road construction, driving a dump truck etc, were decent paying jobs for Americans. Not anymore.

 

i wouldn't run for office, I can't afford the paycut.

i have no idea what this means but i'm pretty confident it makes no sense whatsoever.  let's try some simple math. 

you're saying make the penalty severe enough.  but then you say the cost of arresting, jailing and trial will drop dramatically.  this sounds like foxnews logic.  explain that. 

you want to do some trade with mexico.  what kind of trade. 

anyway, let's get to the math.  first, how many illegals are not from mexico?  you udnerstand that if someone is here illegally from ecuador, they don't go back to mexico.  but let's forget that for now.

you seem to understand that we need to prove the person is illegal before we deport them.  i hope.  and that isn't a presumption based on the color of their skin, no matter what rightwingers would prefer.  here's the math part. 

how many illegals are there in florida?  hint: no one fuckin knows but it's a lot.

how many courts/judges are there in florida to deal with those million or so illegals:  hint, i answered this already: 2. 

hseeint aside that we don't have anywhere even close to the number of agents to round up more than a few illegals at a time in florida, let's say we got 50,000 suspected illegals in florida.  you want to lock them up while we have the deportation trial, right?  otherwise, we'll never see them again.  how long will it take 2 judges/courtrooms to have 50,000 trials?  how much will it cost? how much will we spend to house these people (make sure you add in the cost of building new jails since the ones we have are overcrowded) for the years and years it takes to get around to them all?

DJ:

Club, I agree that it is impossible to round up millions of people. Not going to happen. However cutting off their ability for employment, aid, housing, etc will force them to leave. A majority of my post referred to people already caught for one reason or another, sorry for not making that clear.

Hiring enough resources to go through the deportation proceedings of those already in the system is a temporary thing. Speed up the backlog while the flow of illegals slow to a crawl thanks to our military and within a reasonable amount of time it will be done. The deterent for a 10 year sentence will dramatically cut the repeat offenders. Also we can deport them back to their own country to serve their term. It doesn't have to be a burden on our system.

As for training the military, here you go: See that border? Don't let anyone cross it. Training done!

As far as the fence goes, there was already funding for it, but Obama stopped it. it can be done if we have the will to do it. Let's solve this problem once and for all and we will save billions.

 

As for training the military, here you go: See that border? Don't let anyone cross it. Training done!

without going on and on, i think there are some border patrol people who might take exception to this.

i don't think there is anything close to a will to do anything resembling a reasonable deportation plan.  knowing certain aspects of the immigration system like i do, the cost would be astronomical and it would require a wholesale increase in the size of governmental infrastructure that would be massive.  and that doesn't even get to the fence issue.

but the bottom line is no one in washington is interested.  because it's impossible, because it's unbelievably expensive, because it's not politically smart, because companies like cheap labor and because they are too ingrained in our society (this isn't a recent problem, this is a problem decades in the making). 

but maybe i'm wrong, maybe some politicians will do something about it*. 


*  trust me, i'm not wrong.  no one is doing garbage for mass deportations.  if i am wrong, you guys come back and tell me. 

I was referring to how Mexico and other countires deal with illegals. Mexico has some of the harshest laws for dealing with illegals yet they want their people to come here with no restrictions. Let's adopt their laws and see how quickly the flow from the south stops.

If you make the punishment great enough it will deter people from coming back illegally, thus lowering the cost of everything in the legal system. The hardest part as you point out is to go through the numerous people already in the system. The only way to do that is to stop the flow, then deal with what we have here as quickly and efficiently as possible. The way it is now will never work as the system is getting more burdened by the day.

As for the cost of building new jails, take a look at the cost effctive way Sherrif Arpaio is doing it in Maricopa County. Tent city is a much more cost effective way than building a brick and mortar type structure. Used military tents in the middle of the desert.

 

Also, see my other post about temp hirings to get through the backflow once you shut off the source.

we're not changing our immigration laws to make them anything like mexico.  see post 23.

making more laws or making laws tougher means more ICE, more police, more courts, more personnel, more prisons.  i.e. more government.  once we make those things, they stay around forever.  they need to get funded.  and we spend more and more on government and then complain about why government is so big and our taxes are so high and it's all wasted.  on government.

i don't know what the sheriff in arizona is doing but i do know there is an infrastructure already in place to deal with criminals in az,  there is nothing close to that in the US for all of the illegals.  and while they are dealing with a variance of a few thousands in that county, i would guess, we're talking about more than ten million with no infrastructure to speak of to deal with them.  we'd basically need to start from square one.  and again, it's all useless without the 2,000 mile fence, which is partially useless without something on the canadian border.