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Author: [Politics] Topic: George Zimmerman: Prelude to a shooting
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#1
Posted: 4/26/2012 2:12:48 PM

SANFORD, Florida (Reuters) - 

...On February 2, 2012, Zimmerman placed a call to Sanford police after spotting a young black man he recognized peering into the windows of a neighbor's empty home, according to several friends and neighbors.

"I don't know what he's doing. I don't want to approach him, personally," Zimmerman said in the call, which was recorded. The dispatcher advised him that a patrol car was on the way. By the time police arrived, according to the dispatch report, the suspect had fled.

On February 6, the home of another Twin Lakes resident, Tatiana Demeacis, was burglarized. Two roofers working directly across the street said they saw two African-American men lingering in the yard at the time of the break-in. A new laptop and some gold jewelry were stolen. One of the roofers called police the next day after spotting one of the suspects among a group of male teenagers, three black and one white, on bicycles.

Police found Demeacis's laptop in the backpack of 18-year-old Emmanuel Burgess, police reports show, and charged him with dealing in stolen property. Burgess was the same man Zimmerman had spotted on February 2.

Burgess had committed a series of burglaries on the other side of town in 2008 and 2009, pleaded guilty to several, and spent all of 2010 incarcerated in a juvenile facility, his attorney said. He is now in jail on parole violations.

Three days after Burgess was arrested, Zimmerman's grandmother was hospitalized for an infection, and the following week his father was also admitted for a heart condition. Zimmerman spent a number of those nights on a hospital room couch.

Ten days after his father was hospitalized, Zimmerman noticed another young man in the neighborhood, acting in a way he found familiar, so he made another call to police.

"We've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy," Zimmerman said, as Trayvon Martin returned home from the store.

The last time Zimmerman had called police, to report Burgess, he followed protocol and waited for police to arrive. They were too late, and Burgess got away.

This time, Zimmerman was not so patient, and he disregarded police advice against pursuing Martin.

"These fool," he muttered in an aside, "they always get away."

After the phone call ended, several minutes passed when the movements of Zimmerman and Martin remain a mystery.

Moments later, Martin lay dead with a bullet in his chest.

 

Read the first part of the story about the pit bull.

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#2
Posted: 4/26/2012 2:27:36 PM

...

A NEIGHBORHOOD IN FEAR

By the summer of 2011, Twin Lakes was experiencing a rash of burglaries and break-ins. Previously a family-friendly, first-time homeowner community, it was devastated by the recession that hit the Florida housing market, and transient renters began to occupy some of the 263 town houses in the complex. Vandalism and occasional drug activity were reported, and home values plunged. One resident who bought his home in 2006 for $250,000 said it was worth $80,000 today.

At least eight burglaries were reported within Twin Lakes in the 14 months prior to the Trayvon Martin shooting, according to the Sanford Police Department. Yet in a series of interviews, Twin Lakes residents said dozens of reports of attempted break-ins and would-be burglars casing homes had created an atmosphere of growing fear in the neighborhood.

In several of the incidents, witnesses identified the suspects to police as young black men. Twin Lakes is about 50 percent white, with an African-American and Hispanic population of about 20 percent each, roughly similar to the surrounding city of Sanford, according to U.S. Census data.

One morning in July 2011, a black teenager walked up to Zimmerman's front porch and stole a bicycle, neighbors told Reuters. A police report was taken, though the bicycle was not recovered.

But it was the August incursion into the home of Olivia Bertalan that really troubled the neighborhood, particularly Zimmerman. Shellie was home most days, taking online courses towards certification as a registered nurse.

On August 3, Bertalan was at home with her infant son while her husband, Michael, was at work. She watched from a downstairs window, she said, as two black men repeatedly rang her doorbell and then entered through a sliding door at the back of the house. She ran upstairs, locked herself inside the boy's bedroom, and called a police dispatcher, whispering frantically.

"I said, 'What am I supposed to do? I hear them coming up the stairs!'" she told Reuters. Bertalan tried to coo her crying child into silence and armed herself with a pair of rusty scissors.

Police arrived just as the burglars - who had been trying to disconnect the couple's television - fled out a back door. Shellie Zimmerman saw a black male teen running through her backyard and reported it to police.

After police left Bertalan, George Zimmerman arrived at the front door in a shirt and tie, she said. He gave her his contact numbers on an index card and invited her to visit his wife if she ever felt unsafe. He returned later and gave her a stronger lock to bolster the sliding door that had been forced open.

"He was so mellow and calm, very helpful and very, very sweet," she said last week. "We didn't really know George at first, but after the break-in we talked to him on a daily basis. People were freaked out. It wasn't just George calling police ... we were calling police at least once a week."

In September, a group of neighbors including Zimmerman approached the homeowners association with their concerns, she said. Zimmerman was asked to head up a new neighborhood watch. He agreed.

"PLEASE CONTACT OUR CAPTAIN"

Police had advised Bertalan to get a dog. She and her husband decided to move out instead, and left two days before the shooting. Zimmerman took the advice.

"He'd already had a mutt that he walked around the neighborhood every night - man, he loved that dog - but after that home invasion he also got a Rottweiler," said Jorge Rodriguez, a friend and neighbor of the Zimmermans.

Around the same time, Zimmerman also gave Rodriguez and his wife, Audria, his contact information, so they could reach him day or night. Rodriguez showed the index card to Reuters. In neat cursive was a list of George and Shellie's home number and cell phones, as well as their emails.

Less than two weeks later, another Twin Lakes home was burglarized, police reports show. Two weeks after that, a home under construction was vandalized.

The Retreat at Twin Lakes e-newsletter for February 2012 noted: "The Sanford PD has announced an increased patrol within our neighborhood ... during peak crime hours.

"If you've been a victim of a crime in the community, after calling police, please contact our captain, George Zimmerman."

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#3
Posted: 4/26/2012 3:49:10 PM

Money

Crickets.

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#4
Posted: 4/26/2012 4:32:47 PM
so what are we to take form this story?

- He lived in a dangerous area?
- That homes were getting broken into?
- That he was a concerned and friendly neighbor?

or

- That he was pissed that these burglaries were happening.
- He was pissed about the burglars repeatedly getting away.
- "he disregarded police advice against pursuing Martin" and took matters into his own hands.

These "money" stories you post above do not provide anything substantial.

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#5
Posted: 4/26/2012 4:35:41 PM
I am not even commenting on what happened during the altercation or whether or not he used excessive force as we do not know what happened in that sense.


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#6
Posted: 4/26/2012 4:39:29 PM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by mattbrot:

so what are we to take form this story?

- He lived in a dangerous area?
- That homes were getting broken into?
- That he was a concerned and friendly neighbor?

or

- That he was pissed that these burglaries were happening.
- He was pissed about the burglars repeatedly getting away.
- "he disregarded police advice against pursuing Martin" and took matters into his own hands.

These "money" stories you post above do not provide anything substantial.

Draw your own feelings as it pertains to the case and make your own judgments.

We all of course feel that we are pretty good regarding judgment of ones charactor.

It will be very interesting to me who actually is good at it and this case will surely define all.

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#7
Posted: 4/26/2012 4:47:19 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:

Draw your own feelings as it pertains to the case and make your own judgments.

We all of course feel that we are pretty good regarding judgment of ones charactor.

It will be very interesting to me who actually is good at it and this case will surely define all.



The problem here is that all of us (myself included) are just arguing the issue based on our own biases of what we believed happened. We have no idea what happened.

Some argue that the burglaries were happening and therefore he was justified in taking matters into his own hands and confronting TM.

But

Lets face it -- regardless of how the fight went down or how legit the shooting was if Zimmerman let the cops do their thing than the fight would not of happened in the first place.

More importantly, as Hutch points out in his thread on this matter it is very likely that this will get dismissed because of grey areas etc. not necessarily because the Zimmerman is guilty or not.

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#8
Posted: 4/26/2012 5:36:48 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:

Money

Crickets.

What because Z was nice to some people that doesn't make him a wannabe cop vigilante killer, who killed Martin because he snapped and thought they always get away?

John Wayne Gacy was vice-president of his local Jaycees organization.

It's in the hands of the justice system now.
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#9
Posted: 4/26/2012 5:42:57 PM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by MoneySRH:

What because Z was nice to some people that doesn't make him a wannabe cop vigilante killer, who killed Martin because he snapped and thought they always get away?

John Wayne Gacy was vice-president of his local Jaycees organization.

It's in the hands of the justice system now.

Im confident in my gut feelings. I will let it play out and then lets see who has the more accurate feelings about who Zimmerman truly is.

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#10
Posted: 4/26/2012 6:05:56 PM
Two sides:

One wants to see Zimmerman as a neighborhood protector, that mentored black youths, and was attacked when confronting a possible thief, and was forced to use his firearm in self-defense.  

The other wants to portray Zimmerman as a wannabe cop who hated black people and murdered one because he is a racist and wishes that he could kill all black people, and set fire to their homes, and piss on their graves, and murder puppies.  

Probably both wrong.  
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#11
Posted: 4/26/2012 6:08:04 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:

Money

Crickets.



you mean to say you made this thread in the infamous cut/pasted signature basically as a call out thread to Money?

obsessed much?
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#12
Posted: 4/26/2012 6:12:42 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by rick3117:

Two sides:

One wants to see Zimmerman as a neighborhood protector, that mentored black youths, and was attacked when confronting a possible thief, and was forced to use his firearm in self-defense.  

The other wants to portray Zimmerman as a wannabe cop who hated black people and murdered one because he is a racist and wishes that he could kill all black people, and set fire to their homes, and piss on their graves, and murder puppies.  

Probably both wrong.  


It is funny to watch how personally and emotionally invested people are (especially some of the wackos on this site)...  who are putting the cart in  front of the horse and trying desperately to assimilated any possible info to confirm their extremists and racially charged preconceived assumptions of the case...

The battle is not pro-trayvon vs pro-zimmerman...

It is "racially charged extremists vs sane level minded individuals"

And I think that people in the media, the world and on this site have displayed to everyone which one they are...  So obvious...

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#13
Posted: 4/26/2012 6:28:33 PM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by dl36:



It is funny to watch how personally and emotionally invested people are (especially some of the wackos on this site)...  who are putting the cart in  front of the horse and trying desperately to assimilated any possible info to confirm their extremists and racially charged preconceived assumptions of the case...

The battle is not pro-trayvon vs pro-zimmerman...

It is "racially charged extremists vs sane level minded individuals"

And I think that people in the media, the world and on this site have displayed to everyone which one they are...  So obvious...

Even more interesting as to your last 4 months or more of posting on this forum.

Seems to me that you post 95% about the posters that have the balls to have a take, and 5% posting anything else.

What is your value to the forum these days?

Is it calling out aliases?

Is it calling out cut/paste tea party sarah palin rhetoric?

What is your value to the forum going forward?

Cause it surely isn't debating current events.

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#14
Posted: 4/26/2012 6:45:27 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by rick3117:

Two sides:

One wants to see Zimmerman as a neighborhood protector, that mentored black youths, and was attacked when confronting a possible thief, and was forced to use his firearm in self-defense.  

The other wants to portray Zimmerman as a wannabe cop who hated black people and murdered one because he is a racist and wishes that he could kill all black people, and set fire to their homes, and piss on their graves, and murder puppies.  

Probably both wrong.  
You could be right about what you posted in bold. The second part is not what I believe.

I believe Zimmerman decided to kill Martin after provoking the entire situation and not expecting Martin to put up a fight and tried to use citizens arrest. Zimmerman chose to use deadly force after antagonizing the entire situation, knowing police were on the way and after being told by emergency dispatch not to follow or approach.

Whether Zimmerman is a racist or not doesn’t matter to me anymore. Z was angry in the dark and I think it could have been a latino or white person and Z would have snapped no matter what. He had it in his head that he was sick and tried of them getting away and that he was going to stop it.

Z has a Jekyll and Hyde aggressive personality according to people who knew him and would snap at any moment and Z has on his record resisting an officer with violence and battery of law enforcement officer and accusations of domestic violence.

Doesn't matter to me that M was a fan of 2pac, No limit records, and smoked weed. He was just being a stupid kid. If M was alive you could use it against him but since he's dead it's pretty much irrelevant. Z's mind, past, and actions are the ones that should be scrutinized not M's. Arguing over meticulous bullshit and you Z defenders are always so damn persnickety, the continued protestation and repudiation of the evidence is no surprise to me.
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#15
Posted: 4/26/2012 7:07:17 PM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by MoneySRH:

You could be right about what you posted in bold. The second part is not what I believe.

I believe Zimmerman decided to kill Martin after provoking the entire situation and not expecting Martin to put up a fight and tried to use citizens arrest. Zimmerman chose to use deadly force after antagonizing the entire situation, knowing police were on the way and after being told by emergency dispatch not to follow or approach.

Whether Zimmerman is a racist or not doesn’t matter to me anymore. Z was angry in the dark and I think it could have been a latino or white person and Z would have snapped no matter what. He had it in his head that he was sick and tried of them getting away and that he was going to stop it.

Z has a Jekyll and Hyde aggressive personality according to people who knew him and would snap at any moment and Z has on his record resisting an officer with violence and battery of law enforcement officer and accusations of domestic violence.

Doesn't matter to me that M was a fan of 2pac, No limit records, and smoked weed. He was just being a stupid kid. If M was alive you could use it against him but since he's dead it's pretty much irrelevant. Z's mind, past, and actions are the ones that should be scrutinized not M's. Arguing over meticulous bullshit and you Z defenders are always so damn persnickety, the continued protestation and repudiation of the evidence is no surprise to me.

That doesn't fit in with Zimmermans aspirations of becoming a judge or somthing else in law enforcement.

Furthermore there is nothing in Zimmermans past that would lead a normal person to think that Zimmerman wanted to kill anyone.

Citizens arrest? Wow...all that smot poking has given you quite the wild imagination.

Very likely that he used deadly force without much more than a second or two of deliberation.

What you are suggesting is murder one.

Too bad your logic fails to take in the bloody, broken nose and gashes on the back of his head. That has to count for somthing, especially since Zimmerman had no obligation not to follow.

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#16
Posted: 4/26/2012 7:35:07 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:

That doesn't fit in with Zimmermans aspirations of becoming a judge or somthing else in law enforcement.

Furthermore there is nothing in Zimmermans past that would lead a normal person to think that Zimmerman wanted to kill anyone.

Citizens arrest? Wow...all that smot poking has given you quite the wild imagination.

Very likely that he used deadly force without much more than a second or two of deliberation.

What you are suggesting is murder one.

Too bad your logic fails to take in the bloody, broken nose and gashes on the back of his head. That has to count for somthing, especially since Zimmerman had no obligation not to follow.

“Furthermore, there is nothing in Zimmermans past that would lead a normal person to think that Zimmerman wanted to kill anyone?”

What? Z’s history of aggression, aggression towards authorities, and not following orders paints him as a person with issues. If you’ve ever been in a dark confrontation and angry? You would know consequences and thinking go out the window. I don’t think his future was crossing his mind at the moment. We’ve all done things in the heat of the moment and regretted it later, I assume?

Zimmerman’s history of aggression shows he is has violent tendencies. I don’t think he planned on killing TM. The broken nose doesn’t mean anything to me because I’ve been in a fight when I was in school and broke a guy’s nose. He threw a milk carton at me and hit me in the face, then swung, and missed. I popped him in the nose and broke it.

I was suspended even though he threw the first punch. Just because Z’s nose was busted, doesn’t prove anything. The guy said I was the one who started it and I knew that was a lie and there were witnesses and still I was looked at like I was a criminal. You’d be surprised how easy it is to break someone’s nose. I was falling backwards and still broke his nose without my full body into it. I had no time to think I just reacted.
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#17
Posted: 4/26/2012 7:45:10 PM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by MoneySRH:

You could be right about what you posted in bold. The second part is not what I believe.

I believe Zimmerman decided to kill Martin after provoking the entire situation and not expecting Martin to put up a fight and tried to use citizens arrest. Zimmerman chose to use deadly force after antagonizing the entire situation, knowing police were on the way and after being told by emergency dispatch not to follow or approach.

Whether Zimmerman is a racist or not doesn’t matter to me anymore. Z was angry in the dark and I think it could have been a latino or white person and Z would have snapped no matter what. He had it in his head that he was sick and tried of them getting away and that he was going to stop it.

Z has a Jekyll and Hyde aggressive personality according to people who knew him and would snap at any moment and Z has on his record resisting an officer with violence and battery of law enforcement officer and accusations of domestic violence.

Doesn't matter to me that M was a fan of 2pac, No limit records, and smoked weed. He was just being a stupid kid. If M was alive you could use it against him but since he's dead it's pretty much irrelevant. Z's mind, past, and actions are the ones that should be scrutinized not M's. Arguing over meticulous bullshit and you Z defenders are always so damn persnickety, the continued protestation and repudiation of the evidence is no surprise to me.

Agree with alot of this except for Z trying to make a citizens arrest. Never thought this was motivated by race except for what would be natural profiling for someone like Z had their been alot of young, black crime/break ins in the neighborhood. Do think Z provoked the altercation in some way & don't believe his story of their confrontation & how the fight started & what was said between the two.

Unfortunately, with no witnesses to how it started & just before or at the time Z fired, it's likely we'll never know for certain the real truth of what happened.

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#18
Posted: 4/26/2012 7:49:31 PM

Name one ORDER he failed to follow!...YOU CAN'T

Zimmerman’s history of aggression shows he is has violent tendencies.

Pulling the trigger on a gun is as non violent as it gets despite the outcome. Furthermore, shoving a cop who he believed was not a cop at the time is not the same as shoving a uniformed officer.

Zimmermans history of so called aggression is mitigated by his history of tutoring students.

I have broken someones nose before in a fight....with my off hand. I have also had my nose broken when I was young when I was hit by a basketball I wasn't expecting. It stunned me for about 20 seconds.

Have you had your nose broken?

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#19
Posted: 4/26/2012 7:54:33 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by cashin:

Agree with alot of this except for Z trying to make a citizens arrest. Never thought this was motivated by race except for what would be natural profiling for someone like Z had their been alot of young, black crime/break ins in the neighborhood. Do think Z provoked the altercation in some way & don't believe his story of their confrontation & how the fight started & what was said between the two.

Unfortunately, with no witnesses to how it started & just before or at the time Z fired, it's likely we'll never know for certain the real truth of what happened.

So you're saying that the punch in the face that broke his nose and likely stunned him was justified?

Even the girlfriend said they each said somthing to each other and then heard scuffling as the line went dead. If the gun was out at the time he would have said somthing to his girl about it. Or, John the witness would have seen it.

That logic of because he followed he is guilty is just plain dumb.

 

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#20
Posted: 4/26/2012 9:50:10 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:

So you're saying that the punch in the face that broke his nose and likely stunned him was justified?

Even the girlfriend said they each said somthing to each other and then heard scuffling as the line went dead. If the gun was out at the time he would have said somthing to his girl about it. Or, John the witness would have seen it.

That logic of because he followed he is guilty is just plain dumb.

 



You can't fix stupid. Just leave them be, because im sure he is having problems being successful in life w/ no ability to possess logic or reason.
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#21
Posted: 4/26/2012 11:06:46 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:

So you're saying that the punch in the face that broke his nose and likely stunned him was justified?

Even the girlfriend said they each said somthing to each other and then heard scuffling as the line went dead. If the gun was out at the time he would have said somthing to his girl about it. Or, John the witness would have seen it.

That logic of because he followed he is guilty is just plain dumb.

 

Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. No way to know without knowing how it started. If T was trying to leave (even if he said something like, "FU man") & Z tried to physically stop or hold him (or block his way), I'd say it was justified. And what the gf said she heard & Z's version is totally different...

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#22
Posted: 4/27/2012 12:06:08 AM
shouldn't stand your ground fundamentally mean the same thing for both parties involved?

For what ever reason some people seem to believe that Zimmerman was the only one who did "what he had to do".


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#23
Posted: 4/27/2012 12:09:48 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by mattbrot:

shouldn't stand your ground fundamentally mean the same thing for both parties involved?

For what ever reason some people seem to believe that Zimmerman was the only one who did "what he had to do".


Trayvon could only claim stand your ground if the gun was pulled  before the confrontation. Not likely since he never mentioned a gun while talking to his girl on the phone.

Being followed is not grounds to feel imminent danger....and not grounds to start throwing sucker punches.

Zimmerman was correct in claiming stand your ground once his head was repeatedly slammed into the sidewalk.

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#24
Posted: 4/27/2012 12:11:17 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by cashin:

Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. No way to know without knowing how it started. If T was trying to leave (even if he said something like, "FU man") & Z tried to physically stop or hold him (or block his way), I'd say it was justified. And what the gf said she heard & Z's version is totally different...

No it wasn't. If you're gonna make a statement like that then please post the differences. Want to guess why you didn't do that?

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#25
Posted: 4/27/2012 12:16:07 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:

Trayvon could only claim stand your ground if the gun was pulled  before the confrontation. Not likely since he never mentioned a gun while talking to his girl on the phone.

Being followed is not grounds to feel imminent danger....and not grounds to start throwing sucker punches.

Zimmerman was correct in claiming stand your ground once his head was repeatedly slammed into the sidewalk.


again this goes back to our own biases of how things went down.  How about if Tm was reacting to Zimmerman... and it just so happened that TM was capable of getting the better of that battle?

Why do we have to assume that they are sucker punches? Because the guy who shot someone claims they were?

My point is that this scene could of happened in any number of ways.


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